Lancaster: 'England won't play like the Saracens'

First topic message reminder :

That in essence was the claim.

Despite low-key away wins, I can't for the life of me see anything but a Saracens' style - grim and curmudgeonly. That's it. That summarises the Lancaster philosophy so far.

I'd agree that the Murrayfield game-plan should have been based on a 'don't lose' fundamental precept.

But I'd expected a lot more in Rome and was deeply disappointed. A terrible game.

Frankly I still wonder why Martin Johnson was sacked (how many RWC manager/coaches have won the RWC on their first attempt since 1987?)

red_stag wrote:Portnoy - your 2003 winning team played at times often very boring rugby.

England 2001-2003 - www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2USK9DolxU

(not my video)

Mawhis, I haven't opened the video cos I'm at work but I'm guessing it shows Cohen, Greenwood, Lewsey and Robinson who were all talents.

As I said "at times" they often played boring rugby. They were equally able to create a moment or two of something special and so can Lancasters England.

Foden, Ashton, Strettle, Farrell etc are similar kinds of creative players. But they need to fit that into the system as those before them did.

And don't forget everyone's reaction to their Tour to Hell or whatever it was called. From little acorns and all that.

majesticimperialman wrote:

beshocked wrote:Another point - the conditions in Scotland and Italy were awful. The state of the pitch in Italy was particularly poor. Hardly the conditions for free flowing running rugby.

I do totaly agree with you on that, but what realy get up my nose is, that every body is saying how bad England have been so far, but nobody is giving any credit to the way Scotland and Italy have played. They have argubly been push overs.

So give some respect to both Scotland and Italy, and also remeber that Lancaster as only been charge for 2 games and won 2 games.

+1, also I must add that a lot of people abusing Lancaster seem to be ignoring how many new caps we have in the team and how badly outweighed we were in terms of total team caps against both Italy and Scotland. Experience counts for a lot at Test level especially in cloose games. As a number of Irish fans have pointed out, they only just scraped a win in Rome last year and France lost. Wales have lost there on a number of occassions over the years and at home. The Italians are no push overs.

red_stag wrote:
As I said "at times" they often played boring rugby. They were equally able to create a moment or two of something special and so can Lancasters England.

"a moment or two" is quite a significant understatement. England played some bad rugby at that world cup but had been the outstanding attacking team in the Northern Hemisphere for at least two years up 'till then, as results like 53-3 at home to the springboks show.

Thomh - lets not get bogged down in pedantics.

My point is that England circa 2003 had very talented players but they could win ugly too if needed.

Lancaster is teaching talented young and inexperienced players how to win ugly. That is a very difficult skill to learn and a massively invaluable one. I have no doubt that the talented English backs from this current crop will still shine.

I don't see how any English fans could be negative about the tournament so far.

red_stag wrote:Thomh - lets not get bogged down in pedantics.

My point is that England circa 2003 had very talented players but they could win ugly too if needed.

Lancaster is teaching talented young and inexperienced players how to win ugly. That is a very difficult skill to learn and a massively invaluable one. I have no doubt that the talented English backs from this current crop will still shine.

I don't see how any English fans could be negative about the tournament so far.

Apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying. I agree about this tournament, although I do wonder how much of England's playing style over the last two games has been a conscious decision. What will be interesting is whether it changes significantly when guys like Morgan and Tuilagi come into the side.

Another question is whether it is the right way round to teach them to win ugly first. The England of 10 years ago began as an attacking force and seemed to gradually learn to close games out in that way. I can also see this happening to Wales over the next couple of years, who have all the attacking weapons but aren't getting wins against the Southern Hemisphere sides at the moment.

Thomh, personally I think it is the way to go but can understand the other school of thought too.

I would say Wales actually are doing a similar thing to England but a different style and are further down the line. Gatland has a certain tactic in mind where they play a physical, fast game using the whole field (i.e. they will often attack the blind side). He wants certain type of player - young, fit, hardworking, physical and the guys buy into his system. If they aren't fit enough he calls them on it (see article http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/06/21/adam-jones-handed-world-cup-ultimatum-over-weight-gain-91466-28911375/) and it is all about the system.

Wales actually play a very very very organised system despite the appearance that they are going out there chucking the ball about and letting young players do their thing.

Similarly it is on and off field discipline that England are targetting. Lancaster sent out a signal of intent with his dropping Danny Care and Delon Armitage. His team won't suffer indiscipline. They played a very basic but structured game - one that would be easy enough for such a group to learn quickly. I suspect once the team buys into it there will be scope to push the boundaries.

Fodens intercept to Benvenuti was one such example. Yes he made great ground, got support runners and tried to keep ball alive. The system right now wasn't ready for it. The other players were expecting him to hit the deck, they would smash through and recycle quick ball.

England will be fine. I worry about Ireland who seem to be merely picking the best performing Heineken Cup players and hoping for the best.