Another Myth about England....

by Triangulation Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:42 am

We keep hearing it over and over again especially from Welsh supporters who just continually run our team down...on the basis of 2 matches played in terrible conditions.

While tripping (AWJ style) over themselves to slate England they attack our front row as being weak.

What?!

It is the one unit of our side that is holding up well.

This is the usual untruth perpertated by welsh...

"Our front row will be our first choice so we should get yteh (sic) edge on what yesterday was a very ordinary England scrummage until castrogiovanni went off. "

Complete rubbish.

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:50 am

The England front row destoryed Castrogiovanni. He couldn't make it through 80 minutes against us. I wonder how many of the returning Welsh front row will be forced straight back onto the injury list!

I suspect the Welsh are just trying to distract our attention from their hopeless lineout or that they pinned all their hopes on George North who seems to have a glass ankle.

by bluestonevedder Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:50 am

Yup, front row has been very very good. Everyone's saying they struggled against Italy until Castro went off, but in truth, Corbs was really working him over. COrbs and Cole have been England's best players so far.

by Triangulation Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:59 am

TycroesOsprey

produced the above quote. Named. And Shamed.

Why isnt it enough for the Welsh to be happy with the way their own team is going? Oh noooo they have to run ours down. And when they do, in their glee they get their facts wrong. mad

by geoff998rugby Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:01 am

miteyironpaw wrote:The England front row destoryed Castrogiovanni. He couldn't make it through 80 minutes against us. I wonder how many of the returning Welsh front row will be forced straight back onto the injury list!

The front row did do well but this is drivel and you know it !

by **Biltong** Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:03 am

miteyironpaw wrote:The England front row destoryed Castrogiovanni. He couldn't make it through 80 minutes against us..

to be fair he was hit with an axe just beneath the short rib. Laugh

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:07 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
miteyironpaw wrote:The England front row destoryed Castrogiovanni. He couldn't make it through 80 minutes against us. I wonder how many of the returning Welsh front row will be forced straight back onto the injury list!

The front row did do well but this is drivel and you know it !

How is it Drivel? Did he makes it through 80 minutes, yes or no? Was he playing us, yes or no?

by Artful_Dodger Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:12 am

Ahm miteyironpaw the guy cracked or dislocated a rib in the first half and is out injured for 6 weeks, now stop being an absolute tool asking "did he make it through 80 minutes" when he clearly sustained a serious injury which meant that he couldnt.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:14 am

The England front row destoryed Castrogiovanni. He couldn't make it through 80 minutes against us.

His inability to make it through the 80 minutes had nothing to do with the scrum and everything to do with a cracked rib picked up whilst carrying around the fringes in open play. The Italian scrum had a slight edge whilst Castro was on as Corbs seemed to be coming up in because of the pressure but he wasn't going backwards and Colely had their loosehead in his pocket. After Castro went off Corbs was all over the replacement. The front row are doing pretty well, the lineout improved and really the pack was alright. If anything there seems to be no direction or plan when we have the ball which is the worrying thing.

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:19 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:Ahm miteyironpaw the guy cracked or dislocated a rib in the first half and is out injured for 6 weeks, now stop being an absolute tool asking "did he make it through 80 minutes" when he clearly sustained a serious injury which meant that he couldnt.

Huh? I should stop saying he didn't make it through 80 minutes because he couldn't make it through 80 minutes?

He should realise that the primary role of a destructive scrummager is to be a destructive scruammager. Carrying in the fringes is all well and good, but if you're going to get crocked and not be there when your team depends on you then you are no good at all. Look at Jason Leondard as an example. He did nothing at all other than scrummage and he certainly didn't go missing when he was needed most. That's what made is best in the world in 2003 and why we won a world cup. You don't see Italy winning world cups do you? Or anyone else in the NH for that matter.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:23 am

You name and shame me yet I stand by my statement. After Castrogiovanni went off the English scrum mangaed to lose two against the head. you have a loose head playing against you on the tighthead and still couldnt put the italian scrum to bed quite the opposite in fact. Now I have openly praised cole for his contribution in the loose and the breakdown but not his scrummaging. 3 throws in the line and 2 scrums against the head is not a functining setpiece.

Im not generally regarded as a wum and if you look at my posts about the English team you will see that. Ive given clear rugby reasons for my conclusions based upon the matches Ive watched. The only myth being peddled on this thread is that England destroyed the Italian scrum.

YOu can either make a realiustic assessment of where your team is and applaud Lancaster for what he has done so far whilst acknowledging how much work he has to do. Or you can bounce around with unrealistic expectations and heap those on a team that is only just starting a development process.

by Equo Troiano Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:24 am

If there's one aspect of England's game that has perfomed beyond expectation, it is the scrum. At no point have they been under real pressure at scrum time.

I think the perception that England were lightweight in the pack was more an expectation of other teams' supporters, unfortunately that hasn't really materialised has it.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:25 am

Equo Troiano wrote:If there's one aspect of England's game that has perfomed beyond expectation, it is the scrum. At no point have they been under real pressure at scrum time.

I think the perception that England were lightweight in the pack was more an expectation of other teams' supporters, unfortunately that hasn't really materialised has it.

Two scriums against the head.

by geoff998rugby Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:25 am

Its drivel because his injury had nothing to do with the English front row.

The game has moved on since 2003, except maybe in England, the way it was played then wouldn't be enough now.

Also Italy not winning the World Cup is also irrelevant in terms of Castro ability as a TH.

Does the facts Ireland have never won the World Cup have any relevance to BOD, Gibson, Willy John's abilities as players - of course not
Does the fact Wales have never the World Cup have any relevance to Shane Willians, Gareth Edwards or JPR's abilities as players - of course not

by Equo Troiano Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:27 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:

YOu can either make a realiustic assessment of where your team is and applaud Gatland for what he has done so far whilst acknowledging how much work he has to do. Or you can bounce around with unrealistic expectations and heap those on a team that is not far into a development process.

After my helpful editing, its all a bit like Wales then really.

by eirebilly Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:27 am

I dont know but i was certain that England lost two scrums against the feed after Castro went off?

Why is it that everytime a poster posts a valid comment about the English side its turned into a petty biased view by some England supporters?

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:29 am

Equo Troiano wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:

YOu can either make a realiustic assessment of where your team is and applaud Gatland for what he has done so far whilst acknowledging how much work he has to do. Or you can bounce around with unrealistic expectations and heap those on a team that is not far into a development process.

After my helpful editing, its all a bit like Wales then really.

Its a shame you cant respond in rugby terms but bitterness and denial seems to be a trait with English fans at the moment.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:30 am

England's strength is their front row. Corbisiero and Cole are very good scrummaging props.

Eleshwree there are good areas but not great areas.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:31 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:England's strength is their front row. Corbisiero and Cole are very good scrummaging props.

Elsewhere there are good areas but not great areas.

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:33 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
Does the facts Ireland have never won the World Cup have any relevance to BOD, Gibson, Willy John's abilities as players - of course not
Does the fact Wales have never the World Cup have any relevance to Shane Willians, Gareth Edwards or JPR's abilities as players - of course not

Obviously players who played before the advent of the RWC are ridiculous to bring up in this context.

But other than that, yes, it is very relevant. Some supporters bang on and on about their world class players and like to flatter themselves by writing mythical "world XV" teams out and put their favourite players in, but at the end of the day if they're not good enough to win a world cup then they can't have been all that good frankly. Objectivity you see, that's the key. It's the great leveller: reality.

Now England won a world cup in 2003 and made the final in 2007. I don't see any of those great so-called legends having done the same.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:33 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:England's strength is their front row. Corbisiero and Cole are very good scrummaging props.

Elsewhere there are good areas but not great areas.

Two scrums against the head against the Italians.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:34 am

miteyironpaw wrote: if they're not good enough to win a world cup then they can't have been all that good frankly. .

That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. On any rugby forum. Ever.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:35 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:England's strength is their front row. Corbisiero and Cole are very good scrummaging props.

Elsewhere there are good areas but not great areas.

Two scrums against the head against the Italians.

Write their front row off at your peril.

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:35 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:England's strength is their front row. Corbisiero and Cole are very good scrummaging props.

Elsewhere there are good areas but not great areas.

Two scrums against the head against the Italians.

The scrums were set on a nearly frozen pitch. The ball against the head that I saw was little to do with the relative abilities of the packs and more to do with the ball squirting out sideways as players struggled for grip in the footing.

But you know, believe what ever makes you feel warm and secure inside. Reality and truth have a way of revealing themselves in the fullness of time.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:36 am

miteyironpaw wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:
Does the facts Ireland have never won the World Cup have any relevance to BOD, Gibson, Willy John's abilities as players - of course not
Does the fact Wales have never the World Cup have any relevance to Shane Willians, Gareth Edwards or JPR's abilities as players - of course not

Obviously players who played before the advent of the RWC are ridiculous to bring up in this context.

But other than that, yes, it is very relevant. Some supporters bang on and on about their world class players and like to flatter themselves by writing mythical "world XV" teams out and put their favourite players in, but at the end of the day if they're not good enough to win a world cup then they can't have been all that good frankly. Objectivity you see, that's the key. It's the great leveller: reality.

Now England won a world cup in 2003 and made the final in 2007. I don't see any of those great so-called legends having done the same.

And how many world cup winners are in this current England side?

You have to move on and escape the weight of history, if oyu keep harking back to is you will fail to develop another side capable of winning a grand slam or a world cup. Take it from me as sombody who had to live with Wales decline i the nineties that until you accept where you are as a rugby nation you will not get any better.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:40 am

miteyironpaw wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:England's strength is their front row. Corbisiero and Cole are very good scrummaging props.

Elsewhere there are good areas but not great areas.

Two scrums against the head against the Italians.

The scrums were set on a nearly frozen pitch. The ball against the head that I saw was little to do with the relative abilities of the packs and more to do with the ball squirting out sideways as players struggled for grip in the footing.

But you know, believe what ever makes you feel warm and secure inside. Reality and truth have a way of revealing themselves in the fullness of time.

The pitch wasnt frozen as pointed out by commentators players and coaches in the aftermatch interviews it had a layer of slush on it and underneath was very soggy. They were told to have long studs for precisely the reason it wasnt frozen.

May I point oput if it had been down to the conditions that two were lost against the head you would expect the Italians to have suffered. They didnt why? because there scrum was not under the pressure you think.

by eirebilly Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:40 am

In fairness, i think that the English scrum is the one aspect of their game thats solid. I am still unsure of the lineout though.

I honestly feel that the Welsh and English scrum is pretty much on a par with eachother and it will be a great contest

by Equo Troiano Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:41 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:
Equo Troiano wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:

YOu can either make a realiustic assessment of where your team is and applaud Gatland for what he has done so far whilst acknowledging how much work he has to do. Or you can bounce around with unrealistic expectations and heap those on a team that is not far into a development process.

After my helpful editing, its all a bit like Wales then really.

Its a shame you cant respond in rugby terms but bitterness and denial seems to be a trait with English fans at the moment.

Thats a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black if ever I heard one.

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:46 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:
miteyironpaw wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:England's strength is their front row. Corbisiero and Cole are very good scrummaging props.

Elsewhere there are good areas but not great areas.

Two scrums against the head against the Italians.

The scrums were set on a nearly frozen pitch. The ball against the head that I saw was little to do with the relative abilities of the packs and more to do with the ball squirting out sideways as players struggled for grip in the footing.

But you know, believe what ever makes you feel warm and secure inside. Reality and truth have a way of revealing themselves in the fullness of time.

The pitch wasnt frozen as pointed out by commentators players and coaches in the aftermatch interviews it had a layer of slush on it and underneath was very soggy. They were told to have long studs for precisely the reason it wasnt frozen.

May I point oput if it had been down to the conditions that two were lost against the head you would expect the Italians to have suffered. They didnt why? because there scrum was not under the pressure you think.

It was a random abberation caused by the conditions rather than a trend in the game. England's scrum was not buckling and conceding under pressure as you can see from the penalty count. The tight head wasn't a factor of a beaten scrum, the ball just shoots out as the players slip around on the surface. I'm not even sure the ball emerges legally, a case could have been made to reset the scrum.

But as I said, you believe what you want and the truth will reveal itself.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:47 am

Equo Troiano wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
Equo Troiano wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:

YOu can either make a realiustic assessment of where your team is and applaud Gatland for what he has done so far whilst acknowledging how much work he has to do. Or you can bounce around with unrealistic expectations and heap those on a team that is not far into a development process.

After my helpful editing, its all a bit like Wales then really.

Its a shame you cant respond in rugby terms but bitterness and denial seems to be a trait with English fans at the moment.

Thats a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black if ever I heard one.

Still nothing about rugby, is it because you actually havent got uch knowledge of the game so wumming is your pastime of choice. I think most members of the board will openly say I tend to confine myself to the rugby. If you can do that Im happy to have a discussion abouty our relative opinions. If your just a cyber troll then quite honestly I have better things to do than get upset about somebody sitting behind a pc trying to troll real rugby fans. I mean who is the sad one in that scenario.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:47 am

Equo Troiano wrote:I think the perception that England were lightweight in the pack was more an expectation of other teams' supporters

England's pack is weak relative to some of the packs they've had over the past decade or two. Their current pack isn't necessarily a weakness, but it's no longer a great strength.

by geoff998rugby Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:48 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
miteyironpaw wrote: if they're not good enough to win a world cup then they can't have been all that good frankly. .

That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. On any rugby forum. Ever.

Agreed Chunky Drivel x 10.

It is a Team game. What 'mighty paws' is saying is it is impossible for someone from, Say Nambia or Russia to be World class; impossible regardless of what they achieve on the pitch - that is absurd.

BOD was the best 13 in World Rugby in the '00's. The fact Ireland never won the World Cup is irrelevant.
As for that George Best fella he must have been useless Northern Irleland never made a World Cup soccer final when he played - yer right !

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:52 am

BOD was the best 13 in World Rugby in the '00's. The fact Ireland never won the World Cup is irrelevant.

Laughable.

IN YOUR OPINION BOD was the best 13. But if he was, would he not have achieved something? is not the definition of "best" what you actually achieve and not what your potential might have been?

Actual victories in sport, those are what show greatness, not the opinion of home town fans!

For all of the hyperbole that comes out of Ireland and Wales, they always fall short of actual achievement, in the case of the Irish, they take it very well on the whole. But with the Welsh we always get this ludicrous claiming of "moral victories" and denial and ref-blaming or coach-blaming or witch hunts and declarations that "on our day we could have won", aggransising of players beyond their status and merit. It's just hogwash.

by Cowshot Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:54 am

I thought we had an edge in the scrum by the end, but there certainly were two against the head. I have a feeling both were muck ups rather than being shoved off the ball, but a concern nonetheless.

I'm pretty happy with the tight five, but really don't know about the loose forwards. We haven't got a genuine unit there yet - maybe Morgan will make it into one. They have a lot to learn, but seem to be learning fast. Croft looks good to me, but that may be my Tigers bias.

9,10,12,13 do not yet seem to me to have adjusted to the speed of International Rugby. The defence is pretty good but I don't recall a clean break or even much sign of one. But it is only two games, poor old Youngs is clearly not quite there and surely Dickson will start.

We know Ashton and Foden can be a threat. Old Stretts needs to prove himself again at this level, and has had little chance yet. IF we can get the ball along the line with some fluidity we stand a chance...

We need a clear step up from the Italy game. I think we did improve on the Scotland game for the Italy one - can we do it again?

A big ask, as the SH say. But definitely not impossible. And if the Welsh team start to believe in the inevitability of victory the way some of their wilder fans do, well then...

by Triangulation Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:55 am

Tyrcoesosprey

One of the 2 tightheads which you seem to base your entire slate on was AFTER Castro went off. It was about the last scrum of the game with England reserve hooker and reserve prop. Their first scrum. The commentators at the time put it down to a misunderstanding between Dickson and Webber.

Hardly an indictment of our scrum BEFORE Castro went off.

The other i admit i cannot remember.

There is no way that we were under any kind of pressure before and certainly not after castro went off.

There is no way that we were "ordinary" in this aspect of our game.

Complete rubbish. Might make you feel better about life etc but rubbish nonetheless.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:58 am

Triangulation wrote:Tyrcoesosprey

One of the 2 tightheads which you seem to base your entire slate on was AFTER Castro went off. It was about the last scrum of the game with England reserve hooker and reserve prop. Their first scrum. The commentators at the time put it down to a misunderstanding between Dickson and Webber.

Hardly an indictment of our scrum BEFORE Castro went off.

The other i admit i cannot remember.

There is no way that we were under any kind of pressure before and certainly not after castro went off.

There is no way that we were "ordinary" in this aspect of our game.

Complete rubbish. Might make you feel better about life etc but rubbish nonetheless.

Tri I said it was after castro went off read my post. as for making me feel better about life you know full well Im not on thiis board to be a cyber troll.

by eirebilly Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:59 am

Well i am leaving this thread as miteyironpaw is going to turn what was a good thread into a mess.

Last thoughts are that England should not feel to bad, i cant say it enough, 2 wins in 2 away games at very difficult places to play. Not too bad and i would take that as an Irishman. Also, as luckless said, the English pack may not be what it once was but that does not mean that its weak.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:01 pm

Mitey, by your logic, Jonah Lomu must have been gash because he doesn't have a World Cup-winner's medal , but Ben Cohen is an all-time great because he does have a World Cup-winner's medal.

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:04 pm

eirebilly wrote:Well i am leaving this thread as miteyironpaw is going to turn what was a good thread into a mess.

Last thoughts are that England should not feel to bad, i cant say it enough, 2 wins in 2 away games at very difficult places to play. Not too bad and i would take that as an Irishman. Also, as luckless said, the English pack may not be what it once was but that does not mean that its weak.

translation : [ I can't argue with the inherent and obvious logic of miteyironpaw's reposte, so rather than admit he has a point I will pretend to be too lofty for debate ]

by Equo Troiano Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:05 pm

TycroesOsprey wrote:
Equo Troiano wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
Equo Troiano wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:

YOu can either make a realiustic assessment of where your team is and applaud Gatland for what he has done so far whilst acknowledging how much work he has to do. Or you can bounce around with unrealistic expectations and heap those on a team that is not far into a development process.

After my helpful editing, its all a bit like Wales then really.

Its a shame you cant respond in rugby terms but bitterness and denial seems to be a trait with English fans at the moment.

Thats a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black if ever I heard one.

Still nothing about rugby, is it because you actually havent got uch knowledge of the game so wumming is your pastime of choice. I think most members of the board will openly say I tend to confine myself to the rugby. If you can do that Im happy to have a discussion abouty our relative opinions. If your just a cyber troll then quite honestly I have better things to do than get upset about somebody sitting behind a pc trying to troll real rugby fans. I mean who is the sad one in that scenario.

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:08 pm

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Mitey, by your logic, Jonah Lomu must have been gash because he doesn't have a World Cup-winner's medal , but Ben Cohen is an all-time great because he does have a World Cup-winner's medal.

I'm suggesting that a subjective degree of belief should rationally change to account for evidence.

You are also guilty of constructing an invalid logical correlation. Because A implies B it does not follow that "not A" implies "not B".

by Triangulation Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:09 pm

Tyrcoesosprey

Yes i see you are moving the goalposts. The original quote from you was that we were ordinary BEFORE castro went off.
Then you cite 2 tightheads AFTER he went off.
And you bang on about lineouts....

In no way were we average before or after Castro going off.

Since there was sod all evidence of our front row being average at scrum time people me included will assume you're just another welsh wum.

The only way to prevent that is to talk sense or at least substantiate your comments.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:09 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
miteyironpaw wrote: if they're not good enough to win a world cup then they can't have been all that good frankly. .

That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. On any rugby forum. Ever.

Agreed Chunky Drivel x 10.

It is a Team game. What 'mighty paws' is saying is it is impossible for someone from, Say Nambia or Russia to be World class; impossible regardless of what they achieve on the pitch - that is absurd.

BOD was the best 13 in World Rugby in the '00's. The fact Ireland never won the World Cup is irrelevant.
As for that George Best fella he must have been useless Northern Irleland never made a World Cup soccer final when he played - yer right !

Amazing isn't it. Christian Cullen? TanaUmaga? Dan Carter?

by formerly known as Sam Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:11 pm

9,10,12,13 do not yet seem to me to have adjusted to the speed of International Rugby.

None seem particularly out of their depth though, even young Farrell is keeping his head which is impressive for a 19 year old. What is worrying is that their is no creative plan in attack, there's just a crash ball run from different areas of the pitch depending on how many miss passes are thrown. There's no slight of hand, no backs moves and only one line of runners. In the amateur days teams were coming up with more than this, it's like a really bad Rugby League team's game plan. Smash it up, smash it up, smash it up, smash it up and then kick.

All of those players (apart from Farrell Jnr the most boring AP fly half) show more than that for their clubs, all are clearly more interested in running the ball then they are doing. Some instructions from the management seem to be holding them back as their isn't really another reason for the lack of attacking backs play.

Two scrums against the head against the Italians

Given the lottery system that is the scrummage at international level and given the talent and experience in the Italian pack compared to the English one (all the England front row are under 25) two against the head isn't that bad. What's that as a percentage?

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:12 pm

"After Castrogiovanni went off the English scrum mangaed to lose two against the head"

Im citing two scrums against the head not tightheads? thats the quote from my post above.

by eirebilly Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:13 pm

miteyironpaw wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Well i am leaving this thread as miteyironpaw is going to turn what was a good thread into a mess.

Last thoughts are that England should not feel to bad, i cant say it enough, 2 wins in 2 away games at very difficult places to play. Not too bad and i would take that as an Irishman. Also, as luckless said, the English pack may not be what it once was but that does not mean that its weak.

translation : [ I can't argue with the inherent and obvious logic of miteyironpaw's reposte, so rather than admit he has a point I will pretend to be too lofty for debate ]

No, its because you have no idea how to discuss the subject at hand and that generally leads to good threads being ruined. Good luck with that, you obviously enjoy what you are doing.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:14 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
9,10,12,13 do not yet seem to me to have adjusted to the speed of International Rugby.

None seem particularly out of their depth though, even young Farrell is keeping his head which is impressive for a 19 year old. What is worrying is that their is no creative plan in attack, there's just a crash ball run from different areas of the pitch depending on how many miss passes are thrown. There's no slight of hand, no backs moves and only one line of runners. In the amateur days teams were coming up with more than this, it's like a really bad Rugby League team's game plan. Smash it up, smash it up, smash it up, smash it up and then kick.

All of those players (apart from Farrell Jnr the most boring AP fly half) show more than that for their clubs, all are clearly more interested in running the ball then they are doing. Some instructions from the management seem to be holding them back as their isn't really another reason for the lack of attacking backs play.

Two scrums against the head against the Italians

Given the lottery system that is the scrummage at international level and given the talent and experience in the Italian pack compared to the English one (all the England front row are under 25) two against the head isn't that bad. What's that as a percentage?

Of the figve scrums England had the put in thats about a 60% success rate in the scrum. The Italians didnt lose any against the head.

by miteyironpaw Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:14 pm

Amazing isn't it. Christian Cullen? TanaUmaga? Dan Carter? .

Dan Carter?? disasterous example. He's won a world cup!

Now Cullen, Umaga are fine players and were part of very successful All Black Teams with very high win ratios who won a lot of tournaments for NZ and grandslams and Lions series victories and what have you. But any one in NZ would surely admit that these players didn't quite have enough to bring home the big one and so must admit they weren't the best in the world.

What exactly has BOD done? a good player, but "best in the world"? please.

by dummy_half Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:14 pm

There are areas of very serious concern for England, based on the performances so far, but it's odd that some opposing supporters have picked on the front row and the scrummaging as one of them, when this is an area that has been OKish (providing that our replacement hooker doesn't boot the ball straight to the opposing 8).

Lineout has been a bit hit and miss, as often seems to be the case with Hartley - he seems to have spells in matches where he misses 2 or 3 throws in a row in otherwise solid performances.

The big issues though have been what we do (or rather fail to do) when we have the ball - there were some signs of improvement in the second half in Italy, but we still only scored a try form a charge down, not through well-constructed attacking play.

I think luckless sums up to position with the pack quite well - it's not particularly weak or small by comparison with the other 6Ns teams, but it is weak compared with some from England's recent past.

by Equo Troiano Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:15 pm

Triangulation wrote:Tyrcoesosprey

Yes i see you are moving the goalposts. The original quote from you was that we were ordinary BEFORE castro went off.
Then you cite 2 tightheads AFTER he went off.
And you bang on about lineouts....

In no way were we average before or after Castro going off.

Since there was sod all evidence of our front row being average at scrum time people me included will assume you're just another welsh wum.

The only way to prevent that is to talk sense or at least substantiate your comments.

And he accuses others of not having much rugby knowledge and cyber WUMMing. Somebody has disagreed (legitimately) with him and its an all out assault on their credibility to comment. I've got a pretty good idea what Tycroes IS good at in the cyber world and it isn't on this website.

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