Another Myth about England....

First topic message reminder :

We keep hearing it over and over again especially from Welsh supporters who just continually run our team down...on the basis of 2 matches played in terrible conditions.

While tripping (AWJ style) over themselves to slate England they attack our front row as being weak.

What?!

It is the one unit of our side that is holding up well.

This is the usual untruth perpertated by welsh...

"Our front row will be our first choice so we should get yteh (sic) edge on what yesterday was a very ordinary England scrummage until castrogiovanni went off. "

Complete rubbish.

As far as arrogance goes, there is one team in the BBC today claiming that a grandslam is on the cards and putting their coach forward as a candidate to take charge of the Lions.

...After 2 scratchy wins, both involving controversial refereeing decisions.

Meanwhile, England are quietly keeping out of the spotlight and displaying a very professional and calm attitude to the tournament.

Firstly I didn't ask if Mike Tindall achieved more (one world cup isn't everything btw), I asked if by your logic Tindall is the better player, since winning a world cup is apparently what makes you a world class player or not. All other factors are out the window I guess am I right?

At times of course other 13s have been playing better, but consistently throughout the entire 00s, BOD wins the 13 shirt. Many people would put BOD in as the best 13 of all time nevermind the 00s. TBH this is another case I have had with you where it is like talking to a robot who can't think for themselves and bases player's ability on their world cup medals. You are extraordinarily narrow-minded. Nor do I think there is any point arguing with someone who holds these nonsensical views.

Can't believe I am actaully in an argument about Mike Tindall and BOD and who was better there really are some idiotic people on these forums nowadays.

Tycroesosprey

Three things

1. I have fully explained myself to LordDowlais and everyone in the quote you have taken.

2. Don’t flatter yourself I havent devoted a thread to you at all. I just wanted to openly take issue with an emerging train of thought that England front row are average or rubbish scrummagers.

3. I don’t attack people on these boards. I haven't attacked you at all. Your opinions yes ,you no.

Look, England have always been strong in the scrum. In my view, their scrum isn't as strong as it used to be, however, it is far from weak. They did not smash Castro, he broke a rib and had to go off, not due to the scrummaging ability of the England front row. Dan Cole and Corbs have done well for England so far, and they will have a test against Adam Jones and Gethin. Hartley is the weak link for me, literally every scrum England have his head is the first to pop up, it's shocking. It was hard to tell who had the best of scrums with Italy-England due to the condition of the pitch, tbh, I'm surprised they were able to keep many of their scrums up at all. Davies' comments about 'smashing' England at Twickenham are insane. Welsh fans are simply confident of putting in a good show against a young inexperienced England side. As for George North, who wouldn't be excited if he was in your team, I don't believe we have put all our eggs in one basket, because for me our best player has been Jon Davies. As for Mitey's comments on BOD, they are simply WUM comments.

miteyironpaw wrote:England are quietly keeping out of the spotlight and displaying a very professional and calm attitude to the tournament.

How would you describe Wales's attitude to the tournament? By that, I mean the players and the coaches. After all, they can't be held responsible for what fans and the media say about them, can they?

Triangulation wrote:Tycroesosprey

Three things

1. I have fully explained myself to LordDowlais and everyone in the quote you have taken.

2. Don’t flatter yourself I havent devoted a thread to you at all. I just wanted to openly take issue with an emerging train of thought that England front row are average or rubbish scrummagers.

3. I don’t attack people on these boards. I haven't attacked you at all. Your opinions yes ,you no.

You have quoted me and "named and shamed"

Take issue with my opinions, that is fine but comments like that and

"Why isnt it enough for the Welsh to be happy with the way their own team is going? Oh noooo they have to run ours down. And when they do, in their glee they get their facts wrong" when I have openly praised aspects of the English team. and have clearly stated "facts" as to my opinion

is this not a personal attack?

"Complete rubbish. Might make you feel better about life etc but rubbish nonetheless."

In your next post you accuse me of wumming even when I have stated clear reasons for my opinion of the English team based on teh stats from the game and the evidence of my own eyes. Again look at my posting history before you accuse me of being a wum.

"I did not say that ALL welsh supporters were guilty of this and in fact went out of my way to single out an example"

Since I am the example singled out it is surely a fair inference that the thread was directed at me.

They're deporting themselves very admirably Luckless, especially of course, Shane Williams in his fledgling career in the media as the most public face in transition between player and commentator, showing his prowesss as a diplomat and his potential as an insightful pundit.

But it's England fans who are being flamed as arrogant here, and regularly the English media cop flak for anglocentricity and arrogance. So it's worth pointing out that there is a fair amount of hot hair blowing in from the west at the moment.

[quote="miteyironpaw"][quote="geoff998rugby"]

miteyironpaw wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:
As the one who brought BOD up I did not say he was the best midfielder in the World what I said was that he was the best 13 in the world through the '00's - that is not the same thing.

They are the same in that both are untrue.

You really, honestly think that BOD was better than any other 13 for the entire of the 00's ? You really think that? Really?

Again you are logically distorting my reply.

My claim is a simple one in saying that that the 00's as whole BOD was the best 13, that is not claiming that for every minutes of every day of that decade he was at the top of his game but that he showed an ability to be genuinely World Class for a far longer period than any other 13 in World Rugby.

Lets not mess around who do you think was the best 13 in World rugby during the 00's.

If you say Tindall I can only assume you are not prepared to indulge in a serious debate.

He's manic geoff, constantly ending posts by repeating the same question several times - wouldnt bother.

geoff998rugby wrote:
Lets not mess around who do you think was the best 13 in World rugby during the 00's.

I wouldn't try to name a "best 13" for the entire 00's, but ...

Jason Little won 2 world cups with Australia and was still around in the early 00's.
Daniel Hebert won a world cup with Australia, was named as the best center in the world cup, scored two tries to clinch a first Lions series for the Ozzies and won five Bledisloe Cups in a row. Don't recall BoD ever contributing to a Lions series win or a single defeat of NZ.
Jacque Fourie surely deserves a shout as a RWC winner.
Conrad Smith must be worth consideration as multiple grandslam winner, world cup winner
Tana Umaga, AB captain from center, Lions clean sweep, grandslam winner and part of the team that inflicted record losses on both SA and Australia in consecutive weeks.

I'm sure there are others, but just those without going controversial and naming Welshmen, Englishmen or Frenchmen who might have bested him.

I have to say I was slightly surprised when I came on here after the game to find England fans talking about how brilliantly we did in the scrum. I really thought we were struggling until Castro went off.

actually Tindall wasnt a bad 12, and at 13 his best match was V the Irish before the world cup where he was instrumental in creating two tries by .... PASSING THE BALL

and



chipping a grubber

damage_13 wrote:actually Tindall wasnt a bad 12, and at 13 his best match was V the Irish before the world cup where he was instrumental in creating two tries by .... PASSING THE BALL

and



chipping a grubber

He did play well but I think we're setting a bad precedent if we give him credit for the Tuilagi try. We're all biased in favour of our own players enough as it is without coming on here and going "...and did you see how well he passed that ball 5 metres?"

[quote="miteyironpaw"][quote="geoff998rugby"]

miteyironpaw wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:
As the one who brought BOD up I did not say he was the best midfielder in the World what I said was that he was the best 13 in the world through the '00's - that is not the same thing.

They are the same in that both are untrue.

You really, honestly think that BOD was better than any other 13 for the entire of the 00's ? You really think that? Really?

I'm not sure how you did that but this quote wasn't me

Ah, sorry about that, I took out a nested quote and must have left the wrong starting one in there. No offence!

I have to say I was slightly surprised when I came on here after the game to find England fans talking about how brilliantly we did in the scrum. I really thought we were struggling until Castro went off..

Well timed Northampton Saints style standing from the 1 & 2 I thought.

none taken. Your argument seems to be twofold. I agree that a world class player in a weaker team will stand out more than a world class player in a world class team (Parisse for example) however I don't agree that to be a world class player or the best player in your position you need to be in a winning team. Admittedly it makes it easier to judge a player world class if they are in a winning team.

My example is this. In 1990 Scotland won a grandslam. Nobody really expected them to but they won by determination and playing as a team (and fear of Jim Telfer). How many of the players in the team that beat England would have been considered better than their counterparts? not many I'd wager.

I've lost track of the original point to be honest, all other concerns I had (in 606v2 context) have been blown away by the suggestion that it was possible to declare BoD "the best 13" for the '00s. That staggers me.

yeah I don't actually like him so I'm probably biased. I always thought Rob Henderson was a much better player than BOD.

I put BOD in the same category as POC. POC was being hailed as the best in his position circa 2007, then just delievered nothing. Lots of hype, no delivery. The occassional good game in the 6N v England or Wales or something. But against teams outside the home nations they both seemed to turn to puty, or pick up injuries. I can't recall either of team looking anything other than out of their depth in the southern hemipshere or during world cups or Lions tours.

The difference between BOD and players like Conrad Smith, Umaga, Greenwood etc is that he didn't have world class players all around him.

BOD was the only true world class back in Ireland team until perhaps Bowe & Kearney came through. Everything good about Ireland for near 5 years revolved around him.

If you were to put Smith, Umaga, Fioure in the same position would they be as effective as they had been? For instance.... when Fioure was with the lions... (until recently a mediocre side) he was just awful and offered less than Jamie Noon ever did in an ENG shirt... or a Newcastle shirt come to think of it!

I always rated Greenwood very highly though. He was such a smart player & his many injuries robbed both ENG & the lions of an truly awesome player for much of his career.

Totally agree on Greenwood. The scourge of the Welsh...

Agreed, BOD is a very good player, but i just can't stand the man, as he seems very mardy and childish, but Will Greenwood, what an underated player, with World cup and GS under his belt, plus Lions tours, he is probably the best player in his position in the 00's.

However, back to the point about Englands scrum, which is doing well and seems to have bettered both Italy and Scotland in their own Backyard. A lot of Aussie style sledging from the Welsh who have to realise that you need a good team to back -up your sledges, and Wales just aren't (despite all the B.S) that good!!

"Another Myth About England".

I got all the stuff about the front row but what are the other "myths"? What myths have I missed?

english warrior wrote:Agreed, BOD is a very good player, but i just can't stand the man, as he seems very mardy and childish, but Will Greenwood, what an underated player, with World cup and GS under his belt, plus Lions tours, he is probably the best player in his position in the 00's.

However, back to the point about Englands scrum, which is doing well and seems to have bettered both Italy and Scotland in their own Backyard. A lot of Aussie style sledging from the Welsh who have to realise that you need a good team to back -up your sledges, and Wales just aren't (despite all the B.S) that good!!

Wales are still a work in progress but will still have too much for a developing

miteyironpaw wrote:

Amazing isn't it. Christian Cullen? TanaUmaga? Dan Carter? .

Dan Carter?? disasterous example. He's won a world cup!

Now Cullen, Umaga are fine players and were part of very successful All Black Teams with very high win ratios who won a lot of tournaments for NZ and grandslams and Lions series victories and what have you. But any one in NZ would surely admit that these players didn't quite have enough to bring home the big one and so must admit they weren't the best in the world.

What exactly has BOD done? a good player, but "best in the world"? please.

Rugby is a team sport. How is it possible to make an assessment of each individual player in a team based solely on the overall performance of that team? Your logic tells me that Marlon Devonish is a better sprinter than Tyson Gay.

In rugby terms, how about if I took a player like John Smit, Campese, etc and put them into a minnow side, their greatness would become a matter of dispute.

Myths? What myths?

I'm finding English posters (not all), are begGnig to shows signs of.paranoier

I thought the front row were ok against Italy and Wales won't get much change there

Are there any other myths?

I don't think you'll find too many Welsh people being over confident about playing England, we were against Scotland because they seldom manage to beat us, but England beat us more often than not and nearly always at Twickenham.

I'm hopeful we can sneak a win but I'm not expecting one by any means. It's always nice to see England struggle, especially since they imploded so spectacularly off the field since the last World Cup, and anything that knocks them back a few paces will be warmly recieved in Wales. Which ever teams wins the upcoming game will be on for the slam.

I still worry about Steves coming on though. Is it me or did we get worse once he came on against Italy?

Hopefully PDJ will be picked to face Wales, his extra mobility will be a big benefit too.

AlynDavies wrote:It's always nice to see England struggle
...
anything that knocks them back a few paces will be warmly recieved in Wales..

Wow, and you wonder why we show you so much love over there.

slartibartfast wrote:
I'm finding English posters (not all), are begGnig to shows signs of.paranoier

Seems some Welsh fans are getting so nervous it's affecting their typing

SafeAsMilk wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:
I'm finding English posters (not all), are begGnig to shows signs of.paranoier

Seems some Welsh fans are getting so nervous it's affecting their typing

In defence of slarti, last week he was after dipping his scarf in mens urinals and finding Welsh ladies in pink cowboy hats sexy so he has some issues
I think we can forgive the odd spelling mistake dont you?

SafeAsMilk wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:
I'm finding English posters (not all), are begGnig to shows signs of.paranoier

Seems some Welsh fans are getting so nervous it's affecting their typing

Great post

The english front row is doing well.. but will it cope with the lions front row?

Which season it this, Wonder Man?

by the end of the tour.. it was clear which front row should have started it. This is common knowledge in Wales :P

Maybe so, but it's 2012 and we're closer to the next Lions tour than we are to the last.

the next lions tour hasnt yet happenned though, so we shall talk about the last one until the build up to the next

miteyironpaw wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:
Lets not mess around who do you think was the best 13 in World rugby during the 00's.

I wouldn't try to name a "best 13" for the entire 00's, but ...

Jason Little won 2 world cups with Australia and was still around in the early 00's.
Daniel Hebert won a world cup with Australia, was named as the best center in the world cup, scored two tries to clinch a first Lions series for the Ozzies and won five Bledisloe Cups in a row. Don't recall BoD ever contributing to a Lions series win or a single defeat of NZ.
Jacque Fourie surely deserves a shout as a RWC winner.
Conrad Smith must be worth consideration as multiple grandslam winner, world cup winner
Tana Umaga, AB captain from center, Lions clean sweep, grandslam winner and part of the team that inflicted record losses on both SA and Australia in consecutive weeks.

I'm sure there are others, but just those without going controversial and naming Welshmen, Englishmen or Frenchmen who might have bested him.

So BOD was probably the best 13 in the NH during the 00s?

Just realised I missed Sterling Mortlock off that list. The man who single-handedly NZ in 2003 and also captain of his country from center.

By sticking south of the equator I was just avoiding controversy (I never thought I'd hear myself say that )

It seems acceptable to suggest there is a better player from the SH, but it's dicey territory here suggesting a better one in the Northern Hemisphere. Woe betide an Englishman who might suggest an English center was a match for BoD in that time...

The more I think about it. Who is this O'Driscoll person anyway? and is he just the Irish Gavin Henson?

Wow this is an interesting thread. Seems to be about two key points, or rather myths, about England:

1. Englands scrummage and front row.
My thought is they have held their own, but to put them in the class of England forward packs of recent years is a bit of hopeful thinking. I think they are improving, but the scrum is not the strength it used to be. It is a big concern for me as I am not sure Cole is developing any more. Hoping Corbs and the rest of the young prospects can get there. Quickly. It is completely unaceptable to lose two scums against the head in any match.

2. England's Brian O'Driscoll
Well, I guess I am a might bit cornfused here. Did the Irish one have a twin brother? The Irish one is a pretty decent player. Rather wish he played for my club.

I am not sure Cole is developing any more

Scrummaging wise he isn't but it's already a strength. He seems to be carrying more these days and his fitness has improved so he is becomming a more rounded player. He's not in the Castro/Jones league just yet but he is slowly getting there. I'm more concerned about the hooking options where Hartley seems to have lost that hunger to suceed that used to drive him on, his play this season looks a bit pedestrian. Webber needs to tighten his game up as he is prone to making mistakes at the set piece. Corbs is doing alright considering his age and should be left in place alongside Coley.

Not convinced by the second row (the engine room counts at scrum time) we aren't going backwards but neither are we ploughing forward when on top.

Sam, I guess we see it differently. I think Cole does not get the push in the scrum and is a bit shaky. And I haven't seen any change or improvement from last season. For me, I want to see a prop as a scrummager first, the ball carrying, more important now than ever before, still comes second. I simply don't think Cole will ever be that top echelon Prop which have defined England over the years. Corbs does seem to be improving, but slowly. The days of a Sheridan in his prime are sadly long gone.

I think Hartley has been fine, not great but fine. And I think Webber is many steps behind.

I think Cole does not get the push in the scrum and is a bit shaky

Got to disagree with that completely. For England Cole is the solid side of the scrum, other than the French game in the 6N a couple of years ago any scrum issues we've had have developed on the loosehead side. Cole controlled Jacobson in the Scotland game throughout and against Italy stopped their loosehead dead. Corbs had issues against Castro but didn't give anything away.

Judging by Sheridan's pretty dire performance on Friday night for Sale we aren't missing much there and even in his prime he was a little hit and miss.

Cole at 24 is the 3rd best tighthead in the 6N and is only bettered by Adam Jones and Castro.

I think Hartley has been fine, not great but fine

but the lineout isn't functioning too well and he's barely carrying.

I get confused with the scrum, should Cole be anchoring his side so Corbs can try to get the nudge on his opposite number or is that the other way round?

We do need more ballast and agression in the second row aswell though to help our props.

I though Hartley's lineout work was fine, it's just the total lack of ball carrying that's a problem, hookers are meant to be like extra flankers in the loose and the best hookers are almost like centres. Hartley is nothing like this and a bit crap ball in hand.

So what you're saying is that Dylan Hartley need to stand up and be counted. Which shouldn't be too difficult, seeing as he stands up in every scrum.

The front row is the area I'm most comfortable with, I think. Have a suspicion that some of the trouble we have had in the tight over the last season or so has come from less good second rows and they've been pretty good against the Scots and the Italians. I'm hoping Morgan starts and makes the difference to the back row. I reckon we should manage parity in the tight. It's in the backs I'm worried.

I'd like to see a second row pairing of Lawes and Borthwick. That brings a nice balance of dynamic athleticism and ball carrying with set piece solidity. I think Borthwick could be a real weapon against the Welsh. He'd also make a great 2IC as our rookie captain earns his respect.

Brian Moore about Englands pack, nice to see there are others talking complete rubbish as Tri would put it.

"England's pack can no longer bully people for 60% of the game and win 60% of the ball and therefore win in a limited fashion if they need to.

"I think the forwards aren't of that type, and therefore they need to find a way to bring in the assets which they have got, which are out wide.

"England do not have the players to go back to keeping the ball tighter and smacking people because they just do not have the physical presence."

Moore is spot on that the same limited game that worked for Scotland and Italy in bad conditions will not work at Twickenham in better conditions. But he's missed the point that Lancaster is no fool and realises that. We'll see a different game plan as required. The building blocks are in place, and with the foundations secure, we should see some pretty interesting structures put on top in the upcoming games.