England v Wales - who wants it more and why?

In the 6 Nations the margins between all teams are fine. Wales with their excellent passing game, world class back row and backline bohemoths are favourites to beat England on 25th but upsets do happen.

Sometimes I believe that games are decided in favour of the side showing more desire or even desperation to win. I'm sure that we can all think of examples of this down the years - unfavoured sides with powerful motivation who trump their more vaunted opponents and the odds in the process.

I genuinely believe that motivation can make a difference to the outcome of the match particularly if the scores are close in the last lungbusting minutes of the match.

Which of Wales or England want and is prepared to harder work for victory more and why?

Wales

1. Young hungry side, playing for Wales. Enough said.
2. Playing for Triple Crown (sacrilege to say this possibly - but I don’t think that is much of a motivating factor. Beating France is important)
3. Playing to stay in the hunt for a Grand Slam ( a big motivating factor) - anciliary prize - 3rd Slam in 6 years
4. Playing to beat England ( a perrenial big motivating factor - but lessened for this match I feel )
5. Residual feeling of injustice at RWC tiptacklegate quarter final loss to France. (Warburton himself has recently gone into print calling for changes to the way refs deal with this. Gatland is on record saying that because it was a QF it should've been dealt with differently)
6. Cash win bonuses (big motivating factor?)
6. Any particular personal motivating factors for individual players?


England

1. Young hungry side, playing for England. Enough said.
2. If the players are to be believed they're playing not only for themselves but for Lancaster and staff to keep their jobs. In Farrell's case for his Dad's job!
3. Playing to stay in the hunt for a Grand Slam ( a big motivating factor)
4. Redemption after RWC fiasco. ( the most powerful motivating factor I can think of)
5. At home in front of home supporters ( big motivating factor)
6. England are clear underdogs. (big motivating factor)
7. Cash win bonuses (big motivating factor? yes if Easter's alleged gallows humour has grain truth to it)
8. Any particular personal motivating factors for individual players? (see 2 and 4 in particular)


All in all there are powerfull pyschological forces at work for both sides in this game.

I'm biased but I say that England are going to be consdierably more pumped up for this one. They will be full of the rage of the damned and are at home.

That doesn’t necessarily translate into anything more than 100% commitment but I will say this….

IF England are in this match at the end I'm backing them to come home to win on a wave of desire backed by vocal crowd support.

So if that's a fact. You tell me - am i lying?

I am sure it was a Semi - Final wasn't it???

Yes. Semi. Sorry. Does it make a big difference?

It was a semi. But this is international rugby. I think go suggest both sets of players won't both be 100% up for this is slightly mad!

No not really why should it, you have just tried to develop a huge argument based on Wales playing France in a QF!! Don't let FACTS get in the way mate!!

Still going to get a royal stuffing.

It is only the non Welsh posters on here saying that England are underdogs. I firmly believe that England are favourites as they have home advantage, which is a huge factor in the six nations, also Twickenham is not a happy hunting ground for us Welsh and we have come away from there with our tails between our legs more than I can remember. This English side are just as good as Wales and there is nothing between them except home advantage, which why I am saying that England are favourites for this game.

Wonderman
Both sides will be pumped. Im saying well be more pumped and ive given reasons.

LordDowlais

...and the bookies. Dotn forget the bookies.

Woodstock
My mistake. I stand corrected and i really did not want to cheat or offend anyone but i dont think whether you get k'od in s semi or a qf makes the difference so much to the motivation as the circumstances around it (as explained above)

But anyway mate that was one of many factors at play for each side.

So come on back to the point.

Triangulation, how often do the bookies ever get it right ? Grand national, white Christmas, six nations

I would think Wales will be very pumped.. National teams of old are often embarressed at twickenham. This is a new team and will want to set the record
Straight.
They'll be determined not to be beaten as a loss to England will see them all shot on returning home.
I believe that makes
It 8 all

"Which of Wales or England want and is prepared to harder work for victory more and why? "

Have you been sending me emails trying to flog me viagra?

It really doesn't matter who wants it more.

England will win. Wales lack the ability, both mental and physical to win at Twickenham.

Wales at the moment= very over-rated.
England at the moment = very under-rated.

What's you statnent based on?

miteyironpaw wrote:It really doesn't matter who wants it more.

England will win. Wales lack the ability, both mental and physical to win at Twickenham.

Wales at the moment= very over-rated.
England at the moment = very under-rated.

I think I will just bookmark this little jibe, as I think that both sides are at a very same level of ability. We shall see the outcome next week, and if anything it will go to home advantage more than anything else, if you want to talk about ability though, let us talk about Englands ability to create try scoring chances or should I say lack of

Carpe Diem

Apologies for the appalling lapse there. Yes it is me. You're our best customer too when you're not watching re runs of Dead Poets' Society. Or do you do both at the same time?

LordDowlais wrote:It is only the non Welsh posters on here saying that England are underdogs. I firmly believe that England are favourites as they have home advantage, which is a huge factor in the six nations, also Twickenham is not a happy hunting ground for us Welsh and we have come away from there with our tails between our legs more than I can remember. This English side are just as good as Wales and there is nothing between them except home advantage, which why I am saying that England are favourites for this game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It is only the non Welsh posters on here saying that England are underdogs. I firmly believe that England are favourites as they have home advantage, which is a huge factor in the six nations, also Twickenham is not a happy hunting ground for us Welsh and we have come away from there with our tails between our legs more than I can remember. This English side are just as good as Wales and there is nothing between them except home advantage, which why I am saying that England are favourites for this game.

So you dont agree with miteyironpaw then, I take it ?

Wales are far and away the favourites for this game. They've been awesome and England have been Poopie. Don't you read forums? I'm not convinced the 20odd year record at Twickenham has any significance for this team either . Over most of that England were competing with the best in the World and Wales certainly weren't. For these players the last two times they've played England in England in the 6 nations they've won one and lost one. Not bad going

Lord D....

I certainly dont think England are favorites thats for sure..

It may be at Twickenham...but Wales are a FAR superior outfit..which hurts even more to say as an England fan....

Hammer, you cannot honestly say Wales are far and away favourites and believe it can you ? I take note about the twenty year thing as England were by far and away the best team in the world then, but now I would say that the both teams are about even, dispite what some idiots on this board say about the two sides. I for one do not think England are poopie, I think they are hard working and hard to beat, or very stubborn to put it less kindly. On the other hand I think our reliance to try and run from anywhere might be our undoing against you.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lord D....

I certainly dont think England are favorites thats for sure..

It may be at Twickenham...but Wales are a FAR superior outfit..which hurts even more to say as an England fan....

Goerdie, it is very admirable for you to compliment another's team in the way you just have, but, can you honestly say that we are far superior to England ? Come on, I honestly dont think there is much difference and home advantage will swing it, but if you think different, could you please elaborate where Wales are far more superior to England ?

It may be at Twickenham...but Wales are a FAR superior outfit..which hurts even more to say as an England fan....

Well, they have been so far. England definitely underdogs. But I certainly haven't given up hope.

Dowlais (I passed a sign on the Heads of the Valley and though of you a few weeks back ), I wouldn't say we were the best in the world for 20 year but we were competing up there for most of it (well maybe 15).

I think the current england side are capable but I'm not convinced they'll click in time for the Wales game. By the end of it we might be closer to being on par, or it might happen in this game. Just not sure.

Perhaps Wales aren't far and away favourites but I would have them as definately favourites and I think if we beat them it'll be a massive achievment for us (unless Wales have a brain fart of a game)

What were you doing around my estate Hammer ? If you had turned off by Merthyr Tydfil, I would have had the servants to escort you to the mannor and we could have had some champers with Welsh rarebit and spoke about rugby until the cows(sheep) came home. Or in typical valley's fashion, a can of stella and a packet of crisps, and talked rubbish until the sheep came home.

miteyironpaw wrote:It really doesn't matter who wants it more.

England will win. Wales lack the ability, both mental and physical to win at Twickenham.

Wales at the moment= very over-rated.
England at the moment = very under-rated.

Miteyironpaw, can i ask you a question. I know you don't believe it's possible but if Wales DO beat England, are you going to come back on these boards to defend comments like this? or are you just going to crawl off under the neares rock to die quietly?

My wife is from Resolven and we were visiting the in laws. The first time I noticed it was after I saw your username on here so it kind of stuck in my head.

Ahh Resolven, I used to work in the indoor market there as a spotty young tennager, I was selling bread and cakes from Garth bakery oposite the tea wagon, happy day's.

Is that the one on the old road part way between Resolven and Glyn-Neath?

Yes that is the very one, the one with the big lake outside it. The place is called Rheola market.

Quote from Farrell in an interview

"We can make strides in every department and I think we want to up our game by about 10 per cent over the next couple of games and we've just got to work on things

Will a 10% improvement be enough to beat Wales/Ireland/France ?

tatterd wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:It really doesn't matter who wants it more.

England will win. Wales lack the ability, both mental and physical to win at Twickenham.

Wales at the moment= very over-rated.
England at the moment = very under-rated.

Miteyironpaw, can i ask you a question. I know you don't believe it's possible but if Wales DO beat England, are you going to come back on these boards to defend comments like this? or are you just going to crawl off under the neares rock to die quietly?

In the event of the unthinkable (and let's face it, highly unlikely) I'll be here as per usual with an objective analysis of what went wrong for England. The only thing that can help Wales now I think is more of the style of refereeing we've seen since the Warburton red card. It's almost like the referees have been on a vendetta to repay Wales for some perceived injustice. That's highly unlikely though, I think they've had a pretty good shake now and hopefully things will go back to normal. Anyone know who the whistler will be?

Oh he's just so charming and funny, he's wasted on an online forum

miteyironpaw wrote:

tatterd wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:It really doesn't matter who wants it more.

England will win. Wales lack the ability, both mental and physical to win at Twickenham.

Wales at the moment= very over-rated.
England at the moment = very under-rated.

Miteyironpaw, can i ask you a question. I know you don't believe it's possible but if Wales DO beat England, are you going to come back on these boards to defend comments like this? or are you just going to crawl off under the neares rock to die quietly?

In the event of the unthinkable (and let's face it, highly unlikely) I'll be here as per usual with an objective analysis of what went wrong for England. The only thing that can help Wales now I think is more of the style of refereeing we've seen since the Warburton red card. It's almost like the referees have been on a vendetta to repay Wales for some perceived injustice. That's highly unlikely though, I think they've had a pretty good shake now and hopefully things will go back to normal. Anyone know who the whistler will be?

Oh so it will be the refs fault if England loose, o.k then I guess your getting your excuses in early then

Yawn. Not at all. If Wales win, then something will have gone seriously wrong for England and that is something that I will have to see to interpret.

I'm not making excuses, because as I've said (repeatedly) England will win. The scoreline will be in the region of 37-21 But Wales will score late tries as England loose the bench with the game comfortably won.

Look for England to strike early, exploiting Wales poor defence and lineout frailty.

I've been disappointed at the leniency shown to Wales by the officials thus far, and like all things I don't believe it can last forever. Look for a chorus of disapproval from Wales followers when normality resumes.

munkian wrote:Quote from Farrell in an interview

"We can make strides in every department and I think we want to up our game by about 10 per cent over the next couple of games and we've just got to work on things

Will a 10% improvement be enough to beat Wales/Ireland/France ?

Haven't you heard, Munkian? England don't have to improve at all to beat Wales. Wales have no chance and should probably try to get the match called off now to save themselves the embarrassment.

miteyironpaw wrote:Yawn. Not at all. If Wales win, then something will have gone seriously wrong for England and that is something that I will have to see to interpret.

I'm not making excuses, because as I've said (repeatedly) England will win. The scoreline will be in the region of 37-21 But Wales will score late tries as England loose the bench with the game comfortably won.

Look for England to strike early, exploiting Wales poor defence and lineout frailty.

I've been disappointed at the leniency shown to Wales by the officials thus far, and like all things I don't believe it can last forever. Look for a chorus of disapproval from Wales followers when normality resumes.

What evidence do you base these facts on then ? England have not striked at all against arguably the two poorer teams in the six nations yet you expect them to strike early against a better defence than you have come up against thus far ? I am not saying England will not win, it is too close to call between two fairly even sides, but as I have said to you on other threads your arrogance gives other English posters on here a bad name. What leniency have the referees shown to Wales besides the Bradley Davies incident ( I am not going over this again). As I have said the only advantage is the fact that England are at home, but you seem to think that Wales do not have a chance because England are far superior in ability, and like I said earlier, if you want to talk about ability let us talk about England's lack of ability to make try scoring chances in their last two games. So if you must can you please explain where England will be superior to Wales. The only place where I see England better is the line out, but we can make up for that with our ability in open play and turn overs at the ruck.

I might aswel burn my shirt and support the Sais then.

Just how far does one have to stick one's head up one's behind to become a right proper En-ger-und supporter ?

Rah rah rah ! We're going to smash the Oiks !
Rah rah rah ! We're going to smash the Oiks !
Rah rah rah ! We're going to smash the Oiks !

We've just got time before my balls drop!

luckless_pedestrian wrote:We've just got time before my balls drop!

Daddie's got a porsche

Its funny what a difference a year makes

I think England are there for the taking tbh.. even though we have won our first two games the team is fairly weak at the moment. We have only looked threatening for about a 15 minute period with ball in hand versus Italy.

England have won their two games from Farrells boot and some fortunate charge downs. Traditionally strengths in the set piece are no longer present either.

Wales have looked class and won both their games showing all the skills required in the modern game.

The inclusion of Flood and Tuilagi in the back division could make all the difference for England though.

LordDowlais wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:Yawn. Not at all. If Wales win, then something will have gone seriously wrong for England and that is something that I will have to see to interpret.

I'm not making excuses, because as I've said (repeatedly) England will win. The scoreline will be in the region of 37-21 But Wales will score late tries as England loose the bench with the game comfortably won.

Look for England to strike early, exploiting Wales poor defence and lineout frailty.

I've been disappointed at the leniency shown to Wales by the officials thus far, and like all things I don't believe it can last forever. Look for a chorus of disapproval from Wales followers when normality resumes.

What evidence do you base these facts on then ? England have not striked at all against arguably the two poorer teams in the six nations yet you expect them to strike early against a better defence than you have come up against thus far ? I am not saying England will not win, it is too close to call between two fairly even sides, but as I have said to you on other threads your arrogance gives other English posters on here a bad name. What leniency have the referees shown to Wales besides the Bradley Davies incident ( I am not going over this again). As I have said the only advantage is the fact that England are at home, but you seem to think that Wales do not have a chance because England are far superior in ability, and like I said earlier, if you want to talk about ability let us talk about England's lack of ability to make try scoring chances in their last two games. So if you must can you please explain where England will be superior to Wales. The only place where I see England better is the line out, but we can make up for that with our ability in open play and turn overs at the ruck.

Better defence? unable to strike?

Let's just remind ourselves that we slowly squeezed both Scotland and Italy into submission using nothing but a very basic game based around set piece superiority and a granite defence. We turned territory and pressure into points in a chillingly composed and accurate manner. Both teams were forced back to their line and then Hodgson pounced to collect the points, augmented by the metronomic boot of Farrel.

Now by comparison the Welsh defence has looked ragged, Scotland regularly punctured it and scored two good tries (one being incorrectly disallowed in Wales favour).

This England side has much, much more than just that simple game plan, but like New Zealand regularly do season after season, we've started with a simple game plan and will embelish it as the season wears on.

Lancaster has done well to hold a straight face. But he's known from the word go what was required to beat Scotland and Italy and not shown the true strength of his hand. He knows that from here in the 6N gets tougher. First up Wales. But we've been rested at home for two weeks, honing the systems required, adding complexity, working out the glitches, analysing Wales.

This England side is a hybrid of brutal force and rapier incision. So far we've just shown the blunt side of our pressure power game, I expect to see the ball skills of Ashton, Foden and Tuilagi gelling with our dynamic and athletic back row. We will bust Wales up front, pressurise the lineout and then launch a relentless wave of the so far held back line precision that will carve up Wales suspect defensive systems. Mark my words.

granite defence? so I imagined Italy scoring two tries then?

rugbydreamer wrote:granite defence? so I imagined Italy scoring two tries then?

Aw c'mon, dreamer by name...............it was just like one of those dreams in Dallas, he'll wake up and find out he's been posessed by an alien for the last 2 weeks

Well dreamer, look at those two tries. Those are just those "bounce of the ball" kind of things that happen, especially early in a season. Both against the run of play and attributable to both new combinations gelling into place and the attrocious conditions we played in. Some of us didn't have the luxury of hibernating at home with the roof closed to keep the nasty weather out! Some of us got out there, manned up and played in the snow.

If anything it goes to prove my point that the game plan selected was deliberately and justifiably simple. Perhaps those responsible were guilty of dipping into next week's play book a little early.

miteyironpaw wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:Yawn. Not at all. If Wales win, then something will have gone seriously wrong for England and that is something that I will have to see to interpret.

I'm not making excuses, because as I've said (repeatedly) England will win. The scoreline will be in the region of 37-21 But Wales will score late tries as England loose the bench with the game comfortably won.

Look for England to strike early, exploiting Wales poor defence and lineout frailty.

I've been disappointed at the leniency shown to Wales by the officials thus far, and like all things I don't believe it can last forever. Look for a chorus of disapproval from Wales followers when normality resumes.

What evidence do you base these facts on then ? England have not striked at all against arguably the two poorer teams in the six nations yet you expect them to strike early against a better defence than you have come up against thus far ? I am not saying England will not win, it is too close to call between two fairly even sides, but as I have said to you on other threads your arrogance gives other English posters on here a bad name. What leniency have the referees shown to Wales besides the Bradley Davies incident ( I am not going over this again). As I have said the only advantage is the fact that England are at home, but you seem to think that Wales do not have a chance because England are far superior in ability, and like I said earlier, if you want to talk about ability let us talk about England's lack of ability to make try scoring chances in their last two games. So if you must can you please explain where England will be superior to Wales. The only place where I see England better is the line out, but we can make up for that with our ability in open play and turn overs at the ruck.

Better defence? unable to strike?

Let's just remind ourselves that we slowly squeezed both Scotland and Italy into submission using nothing but a very basic game based around set piece superiority and a granite defence. We turned territory and pressure into points in a chillingly composed and accurate manner. Both teams were forced back to their line and then Hodgson pounced to collect the points, augmented by the metronomic boot of Farrel.

Now by comparison the Welsh defence has looked ragged, Scotland regularly punctured it and scored two good tries (one being incorrectly disallowed in Wales favour).

This England side has much, much more than just that simple game plan, but like New Zealand regularly do season after season, we've started with a simple game plan and will embelish it as the season wears on.

Lancaster has done well to hold a straight face. But he's known from the word go what was required to beat Scotland and Italy and not shown the true strength of his hand. He knows that from here in the 6N gets tougher. First up Wales. But we've been rested at home for two weeks, honing the systems required, adding complexity, working out the glitches, analysing Wales.

This England side is a hybrid of brutal force and rapier incision. So far we've just shown the blunt side of our pressure power game, I expect to see the ball skills of Ashton, Foden and Tuilagi gelling with our dynamic and athletic back row. We will bust Wales up front, pressurise the lineout and then launch a relentless wave of the so far held back line precision that will carve up Wales suspect defensive systems. Mark my words.

And you seriously believe this do you ? You really think that the English front row will bust up the Lions first choice front row. You might get the decision a few times but you will not be busting anyone up. I will give you the line out, and I do respect Fodens ability, but if it were not for the Scotish incompetance you would have been looking at a hiding as they busted your line evertime they attacked. Seriously, you must be a WUM, because you cannot be real with this assesment, who do you think you are ? New Zealand ?

Yawn, The Lions team is not named yet. Stopped reading after that.

Always happens, Wales win a game of rugby at home and suddenly they're all first choice for the Lions

Utterly laughable.

miteyironpaw wrote:Well dreamer, look at those two tries. Those are just those "bounce of the ball" kind of things that happen, especially early in a season. Both against the run of play and attributable to both new combinations gelling into place and the attrocious conditions we played in. Some of us didn't have the luxury of hibernating at home with the roof closed to keep the nasty weather out! Some of us got out there, manned up and played in the snow.

If anything it goes to prove my point that the game plan selected was deliberately and justifiably simple. Perhaps those responsible were guilty of dipping into next week's play book a little early.

bless you

2 scrums against the head and 3 lineouts failed as opposed to the Italians secruing their own throw and put in. hardly superior setpiece mitey.

24 missed tackles in 2 games, 16 against the scots. umpteen linebreaks conceded. Hardly a granite defence is it mitey?.

"This England side is a hybrid of brutal force and rapier incision"
Brian Moore today talks about how England no longer have the power or physicality in the pack that they once did. I suppose his opinion doesnt count either mitey?

As for rapier precision that would be the precision that manages to create precisely two linebreaks in 160 minutes of international rugby. precisely 2. So not very precise at all is it mitey?

Your just an internet troll.

miteyironpaw wrote:Always happens, Wales win a game of rugby at home and suddenly they're all first choice for the Lions

Whereas England squeak two victories through kicks and a couple of chargedown tries and suddenly they're 'a hybrid of brutal force and rapier incision.'

TypicalOsprey wrote:Your just an internet troll..

I've commented on Brian's thoughts elsewhere and I don't want to replicate it here.

Here we go again, I'm being called a troll. As Kiwireddevil mentioned in his article about behaviour on this board; when you resort to personal insults it probably means you've lost the argument...

Now I recommend you take his advice, go away and cool off and then come back and try harder to win the argument on merit.

As I've already said, England were playing a deliberately restricted game plan and we had enough to outmuscle the forward dominated Italians and run away clear deserved victors, and head off the new running game of Scotland, and they've got some pretty useful backs as you would have found out when you failed to contain them and allowed them to score!

I'm not sure that Wales has a better set piece than Italy (in fact you don't) or significantly better backs than Scotland.

I don't expect to see such a deliberately simple approach from England, but then we have the players to really open up if the conditions and opposition suit such a plan. I think Wales may just be pinned back and punctured by incision kicking and precision back line moves. Expect Splashdown to return to Twickenham.

Swing low!