What on Earth would Frazier have done?

Like most of us, I watched the Chisora v Klitschko fight with a great deal of interest last night, and at some point I couldn't help but wonder what would have happened had Joe Frazier been in there with Vitali.

Chisora fought as a classic pressure fighter, backing Klitschko up for the entire twelve rounds. I don't recall anybody having ever done that to Klitschko, who normally does the stalking. Chisora also attacked the Klitschko body and, given that Vitali normally holds his hands low and thus minimises the body as a target, Del Boy was pretty successful in doing so. No doubt, whatsoever, that Klitschko's chopping right hand and the hooks with which he tagged the incoming Chisora ran the show and won the day, but I suspect that if Chisora had possessed genuine power in his punches we might have seen a different outcome.

I've read, many times, that Klitschko would have done very nicely against Joe Frazier, head to head, and that his size, strength and jab would have all represented a bridge too far for Smokin' Joe. I never bought that argument and, after last night, I am more convinced than ever that Frazier would have knocked out Vitali Klitschko.

Some might argue that Klitschko is on the downside and I wouldn't dispute that. However, he is by no means shot and his effectiveness in the ring, while admittedly having lost its vital edge, does not exhibit anything like a catastrophic falloff. We must also remember that Dereck Chisora is no Joe Frazier. Smokin' Joe would have done everything which Chisora did last night, but he would have done it immeasurably better. How many times did Chisora catch Klitschko with that swinging left hook, for example? Every time he caught Vitali with it, I imagined that it had been Frazier launching it and I am certain that Klitschko, notwithstanding his vaunted chin, would have eventually succumbed to one of those.

I'm not in the camp which says that either Klitschko has been merely an eagle among crows. On the contrary, I believe each of them - particularly Vitali - to have been a very good and sometimes under rated fighter and a very dominant and worthy champion, each of them unerringly consistent, thoroughly professional, and extremely good at maximising his strengths. However, I believe that last night provided some perspective as we saw a limited pressure fighter make Vitali demonstrably uncomfortable and obliged to spend almost the entire fight on the back foot.

On the evidence of last night's fight, I'd reckon the best Joe Frazier to knock out the best Vitali Klitschko any time after halfway.

What say you all?

I was impressed with Chisora in some of the early rounds, threw some decent body shots that kept Vit backing off. Just feel that Chisora lacked the pop to truly worry Vit.

Frazier landing those same body shots however would have been a complete different story. He would have had the raw controlled power that would have made Vit retreat to the 13th row of seating!

Last nigts Vit would've have been worn down and stopped by the mid rounds in my opinion.

Will get blasted for saying this but an easy night for Frazier, far too good and resilient to be intimidated by the size difference. His head movement would minimise the effect of Vitalis hooks and jab which aren't delivered with great speed, the left hook eventually closes the show after a few rounds of brutal body punching.

I want to know what you bin smokinuhhh. Sorry couldn't resist.

Personally always rated Vitali and against Joe Frazier I'd still have him winning. The height difference is about 10 inches and reach is about 8.I just don't think Joe could get all his power behind his shots and remember - while Joe frazier did take shots to get in - he usually didn't take them cleanly except against Ali - Chisora just charged in like a mentalist.

Jab and right hand wears Frazier down, Vitali hits hard enough to hurt him/knock him over. Same thing with Tyson except Frazier doesnt give up halfway through. Bob and weave is fine - but he needs to slip and attack thats his only option because he is fighting a bigger man and those seconds are crucial witness Duran vs Leonard or Hagler/ Dempsey vs Willard they negated the height/speed by economy of movement. Last night Vitali had no snap in his punches and yes - Frazier would have destroyed him but a younger Vitali with the usual brute force wears Joe down. Also - Frazier roughed his opponents up by wretsling em - he cant wrestle or push around Vitali. cumulative effect of punching upward, constant punishment and his own constant moving = late tko for Vitali.

Frazier has the one of the most awkward style for the Klitschkos in my view. Especially Wlad.

If that was peak Frazier last night I think Frazier could well have won but I dont think its peak Vitali in there. The Vitali of ten years ago vs peak Frazier would have been a great battle.

Actually I disagree with you on one aspect. I dont think Chisora had a huge amount of success landing his punches clean. Vitali was out of range of many of his big hooks and overhands and when they did connect it was rarely flush.

I also dont think Vitali was as uncomfortable as some are saying. He often fights on the back foot. Even against Adamek he did for large parts. I think hes happy to do that. Hes never been a face first kind of fighter. Last night he neglected the jab though and he also showed that when he fights on the back foot hes basically an arm puncher and his punches lack snap.

But overall I would agree if that was a peak Frazier in there yesterday I would fancy Frazier. Not sure if he forces the stoppage though because Vitali never really looked hurt yesterday.

Vitali with his usual brutal force?

He has never been a devastating puncher.

Funny you should make the point about Frazier's not being able to push Vitali around, Shah.

One of the things which surprised me last night was that, when they were tied up, Klitschko wasn't able to fling Chisora around like a rag doll. Granted, Chisora weighed 240lb., whereas Frazier would have been much lighter, but Smokin' Joe was very strong and among the best conditioned heavies in history.

Certainly respect your point - as I always do - but I must say I disagree on that one.

Must agree to disagree because i've got a j2O in my hand

Thing is chisora is 3-4 inches bigger, 35 lbs heavier than frazier at his best. But the major thing is height. Chisora in a clinch = almost face to face. Vitali vs Frazier in a clinch = Vitali leaning on Frazier. Pushing around someone on their feet is easier because they support their own weight - if they are half leaning on you - even for a few seconds it saps your strength. There too much physical in this fight and then Vitalis punching comes into it - doesnt bode well even for the high stamina Frazier.

Imperial - he is a brutal puncher in that he gets alot of hurt behind his punches - he's not an explosive puncher which is quite a different thing.

A brutal puncher to me is a Foreman or Tyson, he's a hurtful puncher but no devastating enough to keep Frazier off him, height and reach can be important if we're talking about similar levels of fighter but Frazier is ten times the fighter Chisora, if he can push him Frazier dominates him.

And I agree but Chisora is fighting a 41 year old with a bad knee with similar weight and height. Frazier has 35-38 lbs less weight to throw around, and a height disadvantage that is unreal. As hard as Frazier hits he has to punch a foot upward, and remember his fight with Bonavena a tough man about the same height and weight - though the style differs markedly from Vitalis he gave Frazier fits. Frazier pushed his opponents around by ducking into them and pushing them around - he ducks into vitali - he's going to end up in his stomach - not a place you want to be when the guy you are fight has such a weight advantage. Peak for Peak Vitali wears him down. Frazier will give him a tough fight - no argument about that and may even win I don't discount it but everything is there for Vitali to exploit and for Frazier to overcome therefore Vitali has to be the favourite even to the extent of 70-30.

I also remember his fight against Chuvalo where he stopped the toughest and strongest of them all fairly comfortably, personally don't think Vitali has the actual talent to go with his size advantage, he's never been the quickest and would be dramatically outspeeded by Frazier.

Frazier had problems with Bonavena first time out, Shah, but he hadn't yet been converted to a bob and weaver. He was far more upright and boxed off the jab. Second time out, a mature Frazier dealt easily with Bonavena.

I think Frazier would have destroyed their bodies. Both fighters have a weakness to the left hook. That punch was a natural for Joe. Easy night for him against either of the brothers.

I agree with you Windy although not a cake walk I'd fancy Frazier, Vitali isn't a concussive hitter like a Foreman I'll take the 206Ib 1971 version of Frazier to beat any version of Vitali by working his way in with great elusive head-movement, keep up the endless brutal swarming pressure to the body and stop Vitali late with his lethal left hook or at least get a clear UD. Vitali would have to knock Frazier down too many times and that just isn't happening.

I think vitali would be just too big. As mentioned above, in his prime he weighed normally around 205lbs. Although he fought and eat great fighters, nine if them where much heavier than 220lbs.

The vitali that fought yesterday would have struggled, but it's unfair to pit a 40 year old against a prime fighter. It's like thinking that a prime julio cesar Chavez beats the current version of Eric morales because of how much success maidana had against him.

Vitali clinched chisora a lot and if it weren't for his size he would have been tossed about. Joe would have to get lucky with a big left hook. If vitali leant I a man 40lbs lighter than he would have a field day.

Prime vitali would also beat joe imo as he would have to take a lot of punishment to get inside and vitali may not be a devastating puncher but he is very heavy handed

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:I think vitali would be just too big. As mentioned above, in his prime he weighed normally around 205lbs. Although he fought and eat great fighters, nine if them where much heavier than 220lbs.

The vitali that fought yesterday would have struggled, but it's unfair to pit a 40 year old against a prime fighter. It's like thinking that a prime julio cesar Chavez beats the current version of Eric morales because of how much success maidana had against him.

Vitali clinched chisora a lot and if it weren't for his size he would have been tossed about. Joe would have to get lucky with a big left hook. If vitali leant I a man 40lbs lighter than he would have a field day.

Prime vitali would also beat joe imo as he would have to take a lot of punishment to get inside and vitali may not be a devastating puncher but he is very heavy handed

Yep. Ref did a poor job. Should have docked a couple of points at least for excessive holding and clinching.

Sorry, was typing up and my Internet explorer keeps crashing

I concede the point regarding bonavena.

What about Buster Mathis. Frazier was pushed around with ease by a good heavy with a weight advantage but one who hadn't yet gone further than 7 rounds and who just tired out. The only notable opponent mathis beat when going the distance was chuvalo and that at 10ish pounds lighter yet everytime he got into trouble he pushed frazier around and only when he tired did Frazier take over. He was leading fair enough but he was getting pushed around easily. This is also a fighter who came to Joe, ducked low and went head to head. Not someone Joe had to attack or someone whos punches he had to fight through to land and at that punching upward a foot.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:I think vitali would be just too big. As mentioned above, in his prime he weighed normally around 205lbs. Although he fought and eat great fighters, nine if them where much heavier than 220lbs.

The vitali that fought yesterday would have struggled, but it's unfair to pit a 40 year old against a prime fighter. It's like thinking that a prime julio cesar Chavez beats the current version of Eric morales because of how much success maidana had against him.

Vitali clinched chisora a lot and if it weren't for his size he would have been tossed about. Joe would have to get lucky with a big left hook. If vitali leant I a man 40lbs lighter than he would have a field day.

Prime vitali would also beat joe imo as he would have to take a lot of punishment to get inside and vitali may not be a devastating puncher but he is very heavy handed

Size is a factor, but it is by no means the only one. Were it not so, Holyfield would never have beaten Bowe, Tyson would never have beaten Tony Tucker and several other amendments would need to be made to the history books.

Frazier won the New York version of the heavyweight title by knocking out Buster Mathis, who was a very talented boxer, unbeaten, had beaten Frazier in the Olympic trials, and stood 6ft.4ins. and weighed 240lb. plus.

As to the point about Vitali's age, I mentioned in the article that we must make a certain allowance for that, but we must also make allowance for the fact that Chisora is no Joe Frazier.

One thing with Frazier is that if you don't get him out early you're in for a horrible and long, long night - the ring gets smallers and smaller and he gets bigger and bigger.

Vitali's never shown a great finisher's instinct and he's unlikely to get Frazier out early. This means it's gonna be a long night of withering Frazier hooks and his constant, erratic movement. On his best night Frazier was 205 whereas Del was 240, but lets not let the numbers blur the facts. Frazier's a far more powerful puncher and his left hook is much tighter. Add n his unbreakable will and I see a Frazier KO in 10. He gets stronger as the night goes on and could war for 15. The only time I've seen Vitali fight at a really high pace was against Lewis, and he was legless after 5 and a half.

ShahenshahG wrote:Sorry, was typing up and my Internet explorer keeps crashing

I concede the point regarding bonavena.

What about Buster Mathis. Frazier was pushed around with ease by a good heavy with a weight advantage but one who hadn't yet gone further than 7 rounds and who just tired out. The only notable opponent mathis beat when going the distance was chuvalo and that at 10ish pounds lighter yet everytime he got into trouble he pushed frazier around and only when he tired did Frazier take over. He was leading fair enough but he was getting pushed around easily. This is also a fighter who came to Joe, ducked low and went head to head. Not someone Joe had to attack or someone whos punches he had to fight through to land and at that punching upward a foot.

Seems our posts crossed, Shah.

Mathis was very highly regarded when he fought Frazier. It was the loss to Quarry which finished him.

Frazier v Mathis video:

Oh dear! Another fighter of yesteryear dies and we all don the rose tinted specs again!

At 5ft9 I can't see how Frazier deals with the sheer size disadvantage add to the fact he takes a hell of a lot of leather coming in and his trademark left hook would not finish Klitschko considering a mammoth brutal puncher in Lewis could not knock out Klitschko I cannot see how Frazier could.

Frazier was a somewhat overrated boxer who's defined largely through his efforts against Ali. Frazier would lose prime on prime probably on points. He eats too many jabs and crosses on his way in.

Id say Vitali is slower than Ali, Ellis, Quarry, even Mathis by a mile. Frazier just slips and left hooks his right liver to hell Vitalis defense at times is non-existant.

Super D Boon wrote:Oh dear! Another fighter of yesteryear dies and we all don the rose tinted specs again!

At 5ft9 I can't see how Frazier deals with the sheer size disadvantage add to the fact he takes a hell of a lot of leather coming in and his trademark left hook would not finish Klitschko considering a mammoth brutal puncher in Lewis could not knock out Klitschko I cannot see how Frazier could.

Frazier was a somewhat overrated boxer who's defined largely through his efforts against Ali. Frazier would lose prime on prime probably on points. He eats too many jabs and crosses on his way in.

he was just shy of 6 foot actually.

I know mate - but look at mathis he's either running or pushing frazier around and isnt making use of his height at all. He is bloody quick for a tub and porbably had much more to give had he got fitter but that was his first fight past I think it was 7 rounds and he held his own until he got knackered. Also I aknowledge he was highly rated and looking at that I can see why - but still the first time he was taken into deeper waters and he tired badly just from being fat. Everytime frazier even tried for the body - head down pushed him away with ease. Chisora held his own because vitali had to clinch and spoil rather than lean and wrestle.

Super D Boon wrote:Oh dear! Another fighter of yesteryear dies and we all don the rose tinted specs again!

At 5ft9 I can't see how Frazier deals with the sheer size disadvantage add to the fact he takes a hell of a lot of leather coming in and his trademark left hook would not finish Klitschko considering a mammoth brutal puncher in Lewis could not knock out Klitschko I cannot see how Frazier could.

Frazier was a somewhat overrated boxer who's defined largely through his efforts against Ali. Frazier would lose prime on prime probably on points. He eats too many jabs and crosses on his way in.

Or, alternatively, another comment is offered by a revisionist with no respect for the genuinely considered opinion of somebody else.

Oh, and Frazier was half an inch shy of 6ft., by the way.

Oh dear!

No rose tinted specs from me. Frazier beats any version of Vit/Wlad. He'd even outpoint them both in Germany with their manager appointing all judges.

While Frazier was, of course, a fabulous Heavyweight, he's not one who I see doing all that well in hypoethetical match ups against others worthy of that status. I certainly think that anyone forecasting an 'easy night' for Smokin' Joe is well off the mark - honestly, just what do the Klitschkos have to do to convince some people that they are, shock horror, very fine Heavyweights?

Certainly don't think that Frazier can stop Vitali, either. On the flip side, I think Vitali can stop Frazier, which is down to their respective styles as much as anything else. While size certainly isn't the be all and end all, and also doesn't matter as much as pure talent and ability, let's not pretend that it doesn't matter at all. Vitali is like a totally different species to anything Frazier came up against in his career, Foreman included.

Even the hardest chins can be cracked if hit cleanly enough - Frazier is going to have to take a hell of a lot of punishment to get to Vitali's body. When I watch Frazier (and I know a few others have picked up on this, too) I always imagine he'd be in a world of trouble against anyone with a solid uppercut - Vitali does have this in his arsenal, though it's become a smaller and smaller feature as the years have worn on. Simply put, it breaks down as this; it's going to be a hell of a lot easier for Vitali to land on Frazier than it is for Frazier to land on Vitali.

I'd also add that Vitali, though it goes unnoticed largely, is an intelligent fighter to boot. He's almost certainly going to bag the early rounds, given how slow a starter Frazier was, and I think he has the discipline and style to protect a lead on the back foot should he want to. He knows how to make his huge frame count.

Of course, there's every chance that Frazier's bobbing and weaving could evade enough of Vitali's sometimes cumbersome blows to keep the pressure on and take a decision - I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was the case. But a more likely outcome, I think, is that he falls short with his left hook a few too many times, eating a lot of punishment up close as a result and eventually being worn down to a late stoppage or a points defeat.

I love Frazier to death, but I'm not so sure that Vitali is an ideal match up for him.

Sorry but other than size what advantage do either brother hold over Frazier because to mind it's all they have going for them in this match up and various others against the great heavyweights.

If bigger beats smaller then we better go back and tell Fitzsimmons, Dempsey, Charles and Tyson that they had no right beating bigger men.

Chris it would be impossible for them to convince that they are anything better than very good because they aren't, when I watch either fight I can't see them beating any of the greats.

I think Frazier beats any version of Wlad. Because Wlads most vunerable to the left overhand/hook. Frazier as a southpaw convert had a great left hand. Whether it happens sooner or later I think he gets to Wlad with that, especially as Wlad keeps his right low.

Vitali Im not so sure at all. Peak v peak Id favour Vitali. Im not convinced last nights performance by Vitali was as bad or as significant as his critics suggest. I think he won the fight by a decent margin. It wasnt a walkover or a 5 star performance but I wouldnt call it poor by any means. I also think at 40, its not really a peak Vitali in any case. A peak Frazier against a 40 year old Vitali would see me pick Frazier. But the pre lay off Vitali I would make a favourite. Good fight though and I think the styles would blend well.

88Chris05 wrote:While Frazier was, of course, a fabulous Heavyweight, he's not one who I see doing all that well in hypoethetical match ups against others worthy of that status. I certainly think that anyone forecasting an 'easy night' for Smokin' Joe is well off the mark - honestly, just what do the Klitschkos have to do to convince some people that they are, shock horror, very fine Heavyweights?

Certainly don't think that Frazier can stop Vitali, either. On the flip side, I think Vitali can stop Frazier, which is down to their respective styles as much as anything else. While size certainly isn't the be all and end all, and also doesn't matter as much as pure talent and ability, let's not pretend that it doesn't matter at all. Vitali is like a totally different species to anything Frazier came up against in his career, Foreman included.

Even the hardest chins can be cracked if hit cleanly enough - Frazier is going to have to take a hell of a lot of punishment to get to Vitali's body. When I watch Frazier (and I know a few others have picked up on this, too) I always imagine he'd be in a world of trouble against anyone with a solid uppercut - Vitali does have this in his arsenal, though it's become a smaller and smaller feature as the years have worn on. Simply put, it breaks down as this; it's going to be a hell of a lot easier for Vitali to land on Frazier than it is for Frazier to land on Vitali.

I'd also add that Vitali, though it goes unnoticed largely, is an intelligent fighter to boot. He's almost certainly going to bag the early rounds, given how slow a starter Frazier was, and I think he has the discipline and style to protect a lead on the back foot should he want to. He knows how to make his huge frame count.

Of course, there's every chance that Frazier's bobbing and weaving could evade enough of Vitali's sometimes cumbersome blows to keep the pressure on and take a decision - I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was the case. But a more likely outcome, I think, is that he falls short with his left hook a few too many times, eating a lot of punishment up close as a result and eventually being worn down to a late stoppage or a points defeat.

I love Frazier to death, but I'm not so sure that Vitali is an ideal match up for him.

With all due respect, Chris, it isn't that simple at all.

Frazier made Ali miss for a pastime during their first fight. Ali, too, was an intelligent fighter but he couldn't protect his early lead on account of Frazier's dogged determination, elusiveness and industry. It might very well be true that Smokin' Joe would be charting fresh ground with Vitali, but the reverse is equally true. Vitali has never been in with a pressure fighter of Frazier's class and, with every respect to manos, I don't believe he looked at all comfortable in being backed up by a mediocre pressure fighter last night.

You remark that every chin can be cracked. I agree, and I would include that of Vitali Klitschko. Frazier's left hook is one of the most potent punches in heavyweight history and we saw last night that Klitschko was caught repeatedly by that very punch, although I must concede the point to manos that Chisora didn't always land it cleanly.

I don't see this as an easy night for either of them, but I'm still persuaded that Frazier gets the spoils in the end.

Prime Frazier against last night's Vitali wins - possibly inside the distance - although lets face it - Vitali's chin wasn't really tested flush.

However - that wasn't prime Vitali - that was a 41 year old with a dodgy knee and back still showing way more than his closest challengers.

Prime Vitali - mk1 against someone like Williams or mk2 against someone like Peter - I see it being much, much closer.

Stylistically - Frazier is the perfect foil to Vitali - he's off centre, he has great head movement and his glove defence protects against the uppercut.

He also has a fantastic body attack.

Could he implement it against a guy who would try the octopus tactic of leaning on him, tiring him? It would certainly be a tough, tough fight.

However - smokin' Joe is one of my heroes and always has been - I think he wins more times than he loses.

Chuvalo was every bit as strong as Vitali despite being smaller and had to my mind a far more proven chin, to see him stopped by Frazier in the process received an awful orbital fracture tells me he can definitely stop Vitali.

88Chris05 wrote:

I'd also add that Vitali, though it goes unnoticed largely, is an intelligent fighter to boot.

Agree with this Chris, saw a quote from shannon Briggs who alludede to much the same, said he watched Vitali before they fight and saw the slightly uncomfortable movements, hands by the side style and thought he was not all that but when you actually get in there with him he is a lot better than he looks, closes the distance far better than you imagine and is quite sneaky with some of his shots. Thought that yesterday with his right hand, does not throw it too often but when he does he tends to land with it.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:If bigger beats smaller then we better go back and tell Fitzsimmons, Dempsey, Charles and Tyson that they had no right beating bigger men.

Or alternatively, we could go back in time and berate Bob Foster for losing to the likes of Terrell and Foley, two lesser fighters than himself, which surely should have been an impossibility if size really is as irrelevant as some people seem to suggest?

My reasoning for why I'd fancy Vitali to beat Frazier clearly included more than a simple, "Oh, Vitali's a lot bigger, so he'd win." It's not as if Frazier was a fighter without vulnerabilities - in fact, I'd go so far as to say he has more visible vulnerabilities than Vitali does, though of course Smokin' Joe mixed it with a better calibre of opposition so we can expect such frailties to be more closely examined.

Vitali has a very good dig - I wouldn't really say Frazier has any notable advantage there, if any at all - has proven he can take a shot, knows how to use his size and can mix his shots up, too. Frazier has his strengths as well, but I'm finding it more and more annoying how both Klitschkos are routinely dismissed when there is really no basis to do so.

I happily said myself that Frazier winning this wouldn't surprise me, but it strikes me as nigh-on delusional to think that he swats someone like Vitali with contempt.

Outside of size, neither of the K bros have anything to trouble Joe. If Joe can make a much faster Ali miss very often, I dread to think how many blows he will make Vit/Wlad miss with. They would simply not land the punches they land on other fighters.

Frazier's style is what they dislike. They like range and to control distance. Joe will not allow them breathing space. Their inside fighting makes Khan look like Frazier in comparison. I cant see any other result than a punishing night for both of them. Frazier by KO (Wlad) and 13-1-1 against Vit in a 15 rounder. Vit to retire immediately.

I'll also add that Vit has a terrible jab. Not just on last night's evidence, but throughout his career. He wins because of his reach. Frazier would nullify that. He is not a huge puncher also. His punches commands respect but he doesn't plant his feet and unloads.

Wlad is the better boxer, but more vulnerable.

Sorry Chris but of course Frazier is going to have more visible vulnerabilities he had to face both Foreman and Ali, two fighters who would swat either brother aside with ease. I watch them and don't feel like i'm watching great fighters it's as simple as that. Would have to give Frazier a massive advantage in power also, he could really hit with that left hook while Vitali is a respectful puncher not a big one.

I get your point about Foster but we are then talking about a great 175lber facing good and great fully fledged heavyweights compared to a great heavyweight facing a good heavyweight.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Sorry Chris but of course Frazier is going to have more visible vulnerabilities he had to face both Foreman and Ali.

Yes, which I said myself in my last post. That doesn't automatically mean that his vulnerabilities should be ignored, and nor does it mean that Vitali would be totally incapable of exploiting them to his advantage.

I'm not necessarily in awe when I watch Vitali, either. I remember you saying, however (and I agreed one hundred percent with you) that you didn't feel you were watching a great fighter straight away when viewing Carlos Monzon, but he was still a remarkably difficult night's work for any Middleweight who has ever lived. I'm not saying that Vitali is an elite Heavyweight great in the same way that Monzon was at 160 lb - he isn't. But I do believe that Vitali, in some ways uniquely, I guess, is a fighter who falls in to the 'very good' rather than 'great' category, but who would still have the beating of many of the men who are worthy of great status in his division.

I'll stress yet again, I have no issue with anyone picking Frazier - what surprises me is the nature of the backlash received by anyone who goes for Vitali.

With Monzon you have to consider the men he was beating with relative ease, he could somehow look average beating great fighters while the brothers look average fighting average fighters.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:With Monzon you have to consider the men he was beating with relative ease, he could somehow look average beating great fighters while the brothers look average fighting average fighters.

Which is precisely why I said that I don't consider Vitali an elite Heavyweight great the way I'd consider Monzon an elite Middleweight great. But I've seen enough from him to conclude that he's a top Heavyweight in any era. Certainly not THE best in most eras gone before, but a damn good Heavyweight all the same. I've also seen enough of Frazier to deduce (only in my opinion, mind) that his style means he'd struggle against a huge, upright but also world class fighter in Vitali's mould - don't think he can beat him from the outside (let's be frank, the outside just wasn't Frazier's forté) and, on the inside, I'd say that Vitali has the edge in a 'phone booth' brawl - how many big, genuine Heavyweights over 200 lb did Frazier knock out at the highest level? Punching power, all things considered, is fairly even between the two I suppose, but I maintain (again, I suspect in in the minority) that Frazier is more liable to be taking clean shots than Vitali here.

I think he's far too robotic to live with a relentless fighter like Frazier, the speed difference more than makes up for the size advantage, I couldn't envisage either brother being able to stop Chuvalo albeit on his feet nor do I think they could deliver a punch with such brutal power as that left hook.

To be honest, I was always of the opinion that Frazier vs VK would be similar to Frazier Foreman, probably lasting a round or two longer. I probably rate the K's higher than most on this board, but having said that, I thought VK looked very poor last night, very slow and almost passive.

Bearing in mind what happened in the weigh in, + the spitting incident, I would have bet a lot of money on VK steamrolling over Chisora in 2 rounds max, regardless of any TV/marketing money he may have had lined up, I thought VK would really want to dismanlte him. Instead we got him constantly backing off, I don't understand why he would want to do that.

I think a VK in his prime would probably deal with Frazier simply due to the size difference, but Frazier would have beaten the present version of VK no doubt.

When has Vitali shown the agression, instinct and power to deal out the kind of beating that Foreman did?

Exactly what I was thinking, only Foreman could have done what he did to Frazier, not Dempsey, not Marciano and not Tyson.

NathanDB10 wrote:To be honest, I was always of the opinion that Frazier vs VK would be similar to Frazier Foreman, probably lasting a round or two longer. I probably rate the K's higher than most on this board, but having said that, I thought VK looked very poor last night, very slow and almost passive.

Bearing in mind what happened in the weigh in, + the spitting incident, I would have bet a lot of money on VK steamrolling over Chisora in 2 rounds max, regardless of any TV/marketing money he may have had lined up, I thought VK would really want to dismanlte him. Instead we got him constantly backing off, I don't understand why he would want to do that.

I think a VK in his prime would probably deal with Frazier simply due to the size difference, but Frazier would have beaten the present version of VK no doubt.

I do. He's not that good.

Frazier beats any version of VK.

Vitali would have to get rid of Frazier early otherwise he is in for a torrid time on the inside...Bank on a mid to late stoppage for Frazier.

Super D Boon wrote:Oh dear! Another fighter of yesteryear dies and we all don the rose tinted specs again!

At 5ft9 I can't see how Frazier deals with the sheer size disadvantage add to the fact he takes a hell of a lot of leather coming in and his trademark left hook would not finish Klitschko considering a mammoth brutal puncher in Lewis could not knock out Klitschko I cannot see how Frazier could.

Frazier was a somewhat overrated boxer who's defined largely through his efforts against Ali. Frazier would lose prime on prime probably on points. He eats too many jabs and crosses on his way in.

The only person who overrates Frazier is you,5ft 9 must have shrunk with old age.

Frazier was only ever stopped by 1 man Foreman,retired in the 14th against Ali after one of the most brutal heavyweight fights in history,only 1 of 2 men to stop the teak tough Chuvalo in Chuvalo's 78 fight career, knocked 27 out in his 32 wins,yep vastly overrated.

Beats the Kbros everyday of the week.

88Chris05 wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Sorry Chris but of course Frazier is going to have more visible vulnerabilities he had to face both Foreman and Ali.

I'll stress yet again, I have no issue with anyone picking Frazier - what surprises me is the nature of the backlash received by anyone who goes for Vitali.

It surprises me as well. Frazier may well win such a fight but the way people believe he would wade in and destroy Vitali with ease is an opinion where I can't see the basis of. Frazier is largely defined by his three fights against Ali where he has a losing record of 1-2 with his win being somewhat debatable anyway. Add this to a career of only 30 odd fights beating mainly much smaller men that the 250 behemoths of today and taking a shellacking against Foreman (twice). When did Vitali get so badly outclassed? Also struggling against mediore fighters like Bugner I can't see where the logic is in Vitali being an easy night's work.

Frazier is defined by fighting out of his skin against Ali, generally he was a good agressive fighter but unlike Ali Frazier would need to eat a lot of leather on the way to winning. Without Ali Fraizer would barely be remembered.

The version of Vitali we seen last night would no doubt have had major p[roblems with Frazier. To often Chsiora got in range and never let go frazier wouldn't have done that.

The problem ois last night we did not see Vitali at his best. he was slow, clumsy looking and his punches seemed to lack snap. he may be past it or it may have just been an off night I would reserve judgement on that until I see him fight again.

A prime Vitali I firmly believe would only be beaten by a handful of fighters and Frazier isn't one of them. he was just to small and never had the sort of skills that Ali, Louis or Johnson possessed or the ferociousness that a young Tyson showed in the late 80's.