What on Earth would Frazier have done?

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Like most of us, I watched the Chisora v Klitschko fight with a great deal of interest last night, and at some point I couldn't help but wonder what would have happened had Joe Frazier been in there with Vitali.

Chisora fought as a classic pressure fighter, backing Klitschko up for the entire twelve rounds. I don't recall anybody having ever done that to Klitschko, who normally does the stalking. Chisora also attacked the Klitschko body and, given that Vitali normally holds his hands low and thus minimises the body as a target, Del Boy was pretty successful in doing so. No doubt, whatsoever, that Klitschko's chopping right hand and the hooks with which he tagged the incoming Chisora ran the show and won the day, but I suspect that if Chisora had possessed genuine power in his punches we might have seen a different outcome.

I've read, many times, that Klitschko would have done very nicely against Joe Frazier, head to head, and that his size, strength and jab would have all represented a bridge too far for Smokin' Joe. I never bought that argument and, after last night, I am more convinced than ever that Frazier would have knocked out Vitali Klitschko.

Some might argue that Klitschko is on the downside and I wouldn't dispute that. However, he is by no means shot and his effectiveness in the ring, while admittedly having lost its vital edge, does not exhibit anything like a catastrophic falloff. We must also remember that Dereck Chisora is no Joe Frazier. Smokin' Joe would have done everything which Chisora did last night, but he would have done it immeasurably better. How many times did Chisora catch Klitschko with that swinging left hook, for example? Every time he caught Vitali with it, I imagined that it had been Frazier launching it and I am certain that Klitschko, notwithstanding his vaunted chin, would have eventually succumbed to one of those.

I'm not in the camp which says that either Klitschko has been merely an eagle among crows. On the contrary, I believe each of them - particularly Vitali - to have been a very good and sometimes under rated fighter and a very dominant and worthy champion, each of them unerringly consistent, thoroughly professional, and extremely good at maximising his strengths. However, I believe that last night provided some perspective as we saw a limited pressure fighter make Vitali demonstrably uncomfortable and obliged to spend almost the entire fight on the back foot.

On the evidence of last night's fight, I'd reckon the best Joe Frazier to knock out the best Vitali Klitschko any time after halfway.

What say you all?

Re: Super
You could just as easily say Vitali was stopped by the only top fighter he faced, has no wins over ATG's and in a career beating much fatter, less talented men than the multi talented athletes of the 70's heavyweight scene, so what has he done to earn even comparison to a great like Frazier?

Super D Boon wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Sorry Chris but of course Frazier is going to have more visible vulnerabilities he had to face both Foreman and Ali.

I'll stress yet again, I have no issue with anyone picking Frazier - what surprises me is the nature of the backlash received by anyone who goes for Vitali.

It surprises me as well. Frazier may well win such a fight but the way people believe he would wade in and destroy Vitali with ease is an opinion where I can't see the basis of. Frazier is largely defined by his three fights against Ali where he has a losing record of 1-2 with his win being somewhat debatable anyway. Add this to a career of only 30 odd fights beating mainly much smaller men that the 250 behemoths of today and taking a shellacking against Foreman (twice). When did Vitali get so badly outclassed? Also struggling against mediore fighters like Bugner I can't see where the logic is in Vitali being an easy night's work.

Frazier is defined by fighting out of his skin against Ali, generally he was a good agressive fighter but unlike Ali Frazier would need to eat a lot of leather on the way to winning. Without Ali Fraizer would barely be remembered.

There is not way on this earth that their first fight was debateable. It was a clear Frazier. I doubt you will get a bigger Ali fan than me. Klit fights similar to Ali in that they rely on their jab. If Frazier can slip Ali's jab I fear for Klit when he slips his ponderous jab and unleashes the left hook with regularity. Klits do not have decent footwork to keep frazier at a distance.

Easy night for frazier.

When has Vitali ever had to face either Foreman or Ali, being outlcassed against chaff is one thing but when it's the divisions most devastating puncher it's slightly more acceptable.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Re: Super
You could just as easily say Vitali was stopped by the only top fighter he faced, has no wins over ATG's and in a career beating much fatter, less talented men than the multi talented athletes of the 70's heavyweight scene, so what has he done to earn even comparison to a great like Frazier?

To be fair, there aren't any ATG he could have fought. Vit is good, but Frazier was elite.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:The version of Vitali we seen last night would no doubt have had major p[roblems with Frazier. To often Chsiora got in range and never let go frazier wouldn't have done that.

The problem ois last night we did not see Vitali at his best. he was slow, clumsy looking and his punches seemed to lack snap. he may be past it or it may have just been an off night I would reserve judgement on that until I see him fight again.

A prime Vitali I firmly believe would only be beaten by a handful of fighters and Frazier isn't one of them. he was just to small and never had the sort of skills that Ali, Louis or Johnson possessed or the ferociousness that a young Tyson showed in the late 80's.

That's because he was a very different fighter. Vit had never fought anyone who pressured him and to suggest Frazier wasn't ferrocious is very wrong. The man was relentless. Almost machine like in his aggression. He would work the body until Vit would be crying out for him to work the head. Frazier would oblige and KO him in all lilelihood.

Easy night's work.

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:The version of Vitali we seen last night would no doubt have had major p[roblems with Frazier. To often Chsiora got in range and never let go frazier wouldn't have done that.

The problem ois last night we did not see Vitali at his best. he was slow, clumsy looking and his punches seemed to lack snap. he may be past it or it may have just been an off night I would reserve judgement on that until I see him fight again.

A prime Vitali I firmly believe would only be beaten by a handful of fighters and Frazier isn't one of them. he was just to small and never had the sort of skills that Ali, Louis or Johnson possessed or the ferociousness that a young Tyson showed in the late 80's.

That's because he was a very different fighter. Vit had never fought anyone who pressured him and to suggest Frazier wasn't ferrocious is very wrong. The man was relentless. Almost machine like in his aggression. He would work the body until Vit would be crying out for him to work the head. Frazier would oblige and KO him in all lilelihood.

Easy night's work.

I don't think anyone would beat Vitali easily. I never said he wasn't ferocious just not the same as that young version of Tyson who was just vicious. A prime Vitali was quite mobile and technically very good. If Frazier could get past the jab he could do it but Vitali has a great chin. I don't see him getting past the jab often enough to win the fight I would say Vitali wins by a couple of rounds in a very entertaining fight.

Would fancy Louis, Ali, Holmes and Foreman to beat him quite easily with a few others doing it fairly comfortably.

If he gets inside Alis jab then he can certainly get inside Vitalis, it isn't the piston like jab of Liston or Holmes while the power isn't going to deter him, he did despite being pummeled by Foreman continue to march forward.

I would fancy Louis, Ali, Johnson, Holmes and Foreman to beat him but not easily he would give them all a fight. Frazier liked to get inside but when you get inside against Vitali he ties you up and leans on you with all his weight. I see Frazier just being a bit to small which would be fine if he was immensely talented like Ali, Louis or Johnson but he wasn't.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:The version of Vitali we seen last night would no doubt have had major p[roblems with Frazier. To often Chsiora got in range and never let go frazier wouldn't have done that.

The problem ois last night we did not see Vitali at his best. he was slow, clumsy looking and his punches seemed to lack snap. he may be past it or it may have just been an off night I would reserve judgement on that until I see him fight again.

A prime Vitali I firmly believe would only be beaten by a handful of fighters and Frazier isn't one of them. he was just to small and never had the sort of skills that Ali, Louis or Johnson possessed or the ferociousness that a young Tyson showed in the late 80's.

That's because he was a very different fighter. Vit had never fought anyone who pressured him and to suggest Frazier wasn't ferrocious is very wrong. The man was relentless. Almost machine like in his aggression. He would work the body until Vit would be crying out for him to work the head. Frazier would oblige and KO him in all lilelihood.

Easy night's work.

I don't think anyone would beat Vitali easily. I never said he wasn't ferocious just not the same as that young version of Tyson who was just vicious. A prime Vitali was quite mobile and technically very good. If Frazier could get past the jab he could do it but Vitali has a great chin. I don't see him getting past the jab often enough to win the fight I would say Vitali wins by a couple of rounds in a very entertaining fight.

Prime Vit was never mobile. More mobile than he is now. He has always weak when attacked and his arms flailed around not knowing what to do. They are classic bullying fighters. Back them up and they wilt. Put enough pressure on him and he will quit. He has previous in quitting also.

Foreman would in all likelihood blast him out early, after a couple of rounds of heavy punishment his chin would fail on him, he has never been the hardest to hit. Aside from size don't see a single advantage he has, Frazier was too good to let him just tie up, in theory it's simple as he does it against weak opposition but doing it against a fighter throwing non stop is a different kettle of fish.

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:The version of Vitali we seen last night would no doubt have had major p[roblems with Frazier. To often Chsiora got in range and never let go frazier wouldn't have done that.

The problem ois last night we did not see Vitali at his best. he was slow, clumsy looking and his punches seemed to lack snap. he may be past it or it may have just been an off night I would reserve judgement on that until I see him fight again.

A prime Vitali I firmly believe would only be beaten by a handful of fighters and Frazier isn't one of them. he was just to small and never had the sort of skills that Ali, Louis or Johnson possessed or the ferociousness that a young Tyson showed in the late 80's.

That's because he was a very different fighter. Vit had never fought anyone who pressured him and to suggest Frazier wasn't ferrocious is very wrong. The man was relentless. Almost machine like in his aggression. He would work the body until Vit would be crying out for him to work the head. Frazier would oblige and KO him in all lilelihood.

Easy night's work.

I don't think anyone would beat Vitali easily. I never said he wasn't ferocious just not the same as that young version of Tyson who was just vicious. A prime Vitali was quite mobile and technically very good. If Frazier could get past the jab he could do it but Vitali has a great chin. I don't see him getting past the jab often enough to win the fight I would say Vitali wins by a couple of rounds in a very entertaining fight.

Prime Vit was never mobile. More mobile than he is now. He has always weak when attacked and his arms flailed around not knowing what to do. They are classic bullying fighters. Back them up and they wilt. Put enough pressure on him and he will quit. He has previous in quitting also.

He's never quit and you know it. He wasn't as static as made out. The whole big dull rigid middle eastern fighter is just a myth. He's not as mobile as Wlad but he isn't a big stiff.

He quit. He has 6 minutes to go. Far ahead on points and quit because his arm hurt. Tyson fought with a broken back . Well Tyson fought with a ruptured ACL. WIlliams fought with a dislocated shoulder. Many boxers have fought on with injuries. Vit quit when the going got tough. Typical front runner.

The guys has always been as wooden as Keanu Reeves acting skills. Ironically both are successful.

I actually quite rate Keanu. He's got that likeable wooden-ness to him that somehow you don't want to change because the Matrix Trilogy and the Speed movies rely on action, more slick acting abilities would be an unnecessary distraction.

Anyway, as someone else has pointed out I don't see that Frazier has enough of a presence in terms of size and is not elusive enough to dodge the best part of VK's work. I see it as 7-5 Vitali .

Interesting point, how many rounds would it be over? Have always considered any fantasy fight to be over 15 rounds myself.

Damn never thought of that. Guess we'll have to go 13.5

You beat me to the punch there Ghosty. Chuvalo was a big mean guy who though he had a few losses on his record had never been stopped until he met Smokin' Joe. I think he would have finished Vitali when they were both at their best.

only a hand full of fighters- give us a break?

Have said for the past few years now that Frazier is absolutely anathema to both Klitshkos.

The reason, IMO, that the no challenger has succesfully beaten them both is because no fighter has been fast enough or elusive enough to get their punches off. Chisora on Saturday night actually succeeded in slipping quite a few of Vitali's shots. he was, however, far too slow to set himself and respond with any counter shots of his own.

He was able to back Vitali up easily and forced him to engage on numerous occasions. Again, it is my view that were Chisora fast enough to let his punches go whilst in range then he would have had far more success.

Frazier is a lot quicker and more elusive than Chisora. He also has demonstrated that, despite his lighter weight, he was able to trouble people with his power. Chisora has not ever really shown that ability.

I completely agree with the point made earlier that Vitali held on and spoiled when Chisora got close. I don't think this would be allowed anywhere outside of Germany. Even allowing for this Chisora, a fighter who is quite simply not in Fraziers class, was able to land fairly well on his opponent.

It is my opinion that Frazier backs up Vitali and chops him down. Never has Vitali been forced to fight at a pace that Frazier would set. Even Ali wilted under the pressure.

Frazier was able to make the laser-acccurate, lightning fast Ali miss repeatedly with his jabs and straights. Vitali would struggle to land on Frazier.

I think that Frazier either stops Vitali late, or wins a wide points decision.

I also think Tyson would stop Vitali

Frazier would have done very little If he got shoved back......

Great but one dimensional fighter.....

Frazier made for Vitali.

One issue that I dont think is black or white is how much Vitali was forced to be backed up compared to how much he was content to fight off the back foot. One school of thought might say that Chisora forced him to fight on the back foot and disrupted his natural game, another might be he was content and reasonably happy to fight on the back foot and knew he was winning the rounds. Why do anything different.

I think the Lewis fight generated a fair few misconceptions about Vitali. I dont think hes very easy to hit because he controls range and distance well. He steps in and out of range. His hands are low but he leans back. However one of the lasting images of him is his face shredded to peices in the Lewis fight which kind of makes people think of him as a guy who is there to be hit. Lewis was actually hit more in that fight for instance.

Another is that Vitali is a guy that comes forward face first and doesnt mind being hit. Again I think thats because of the Lewis fight. He was forced to do that because I dont think he could beat Lewis at range who is probably the only guy he has faced with longer reach and a better jab. But if you can bring yourself to watch many of his fights he actually doesnt mind being on the back foot when hes in control and he doesnt just march forward taking shots. He prefers avoiding being hit. He actualy spends more time than people think on the back foot and I think hes happy using his size to pick fighters off at distance as the come in. Against naturally come forward fighters (Arreola, Peter e.g) he actually lets them come at him and only really goes on the front foot when they have been worn down. Against the likes of Adamek he makes Adamek come to him as opposed to walking the smaller man down.

I would suggest against Frazier, if he was having success on the back foot he would be happy to fight like he did against Chisora. I wouldnt neccessarily say his style against Chisora was down to Chisora forcing to fight like that.

Interesting points, manos.

I might very well need to revisit Vitali's earlier fights, paying particular attention to the fighting off the back foot issue. My recollection ( and it was just that, pure recollection, ) was that in no previous fight had he spent almost the entire duration being, or allowing himself to be, backed up. Perhaps my memory is playing tricks.

I still make Frazier favourite, though, but it's been mighty interesting to read such good arguments from those in the Vitali camp.

HumanWindmill wrote:Interesting points, manos.

I might very well need to revisit Vitali's earlier fights, paying particular attention to the fighting off the back foot issue. My recollection ( and it was just that, pure recollection, ) was that in no previous fight had he spent almost the entire duration being, or allowing himself to be, backed up. Perhaps my memory is playing tricks.

I still make Frazier favourite, though, but it's been mighty interesting to read such good arguments from those in the Vitali camp.

I would tend to think its a close fight aswell. Id make Frazier favourite over Vitali now. But maybe the Vitali of ten years ago a favourite over Frazier. The last fight against Chisora he definately didnt enjoy the near total control that he did over most of his recent victims, but how much of that is down to Chisoras own performance, Vitali getting on etc is hard to say. Probably fair to say a bit of both. Chisora had a good go and performed above expectations, but still felt he lost comfortably and possibly won as a few as 2 rounds. But it was competitve at all times unike fights with Peter, Arreola, Adamek etc which were one sided affairs. I just think overall Vitali spends more time kind of stepping back out of range and picking off guys at distance rather than walking them down. To be fair though, alot of those guys have inferior mobility to Vitali so it makes it easier for him. Chisora had better movement and as a result his back foot fighting wasnt as easy. His jab in particular went missing and his punches lacked snap. But its hard to guage because he was still winning the rounds so was there any real incentive to change strategy? Against Frazier things would be different and if he felt he was losing on the back foot he might have to spend more time trying to impose himself. Frazier was rarely in a bad fight though and I dont think this one would be any different. Would be very reluctan to dismiss either fighters chances.