England u20s versus Wales

First topic message reminder :

England have named their team:

u20 side

It's the same side that was supposed to start against Italy. Given the disappointment of having that called off, and the continued use of u20 players at AP sides, I don't think this is surprising.

It's nothing like the strongest side England can put out, but it's still got some good players in it. Slade and Bell are the fourth and fifth choice FHs at this level.

England Under 20 starting XV v Wales
1) Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
2) Koree Britton (Gloucester Rugby)
3) Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
4) Tom Price (Leicester Tigers)
5) George Merrick (Harlequins)
6) Dom Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
7) Chris Walker (C) (Leeds Carnegie)
8) Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

9) Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)
10) Tommy Bell (Sale Sharks)
11) Josh Bassett (Bedford Blues)
12) Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
13) Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
14) Anthony Watson (London Irish)
15) Ben Ransom (Saracens)

Replacements:
16) Scott Spurling (Saracens)
17) Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
18) Nick Auterac (Saracens)
19) Elliot Stooke (Gloucester Rugby)
20) Will Skuse (Bath Rugby)
21) Alex Day (Northampton Saints)
22) Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
23) Marland Yarde (London Irish)

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

offload wrote:Well size or not, there is a big gulf between these two teams. We have been falling off tackles since the start of the match, don't look fit and have made some poor decisions. Fair play to the English boys they have played some very nice rugby. Well done England.

Is there an age restriction on cryotherapy chamber treatment?

Don't know? But if I was the coach that lot would be getting the coldest shower that the Stoop can produce and I have them doing a cross country run before breakfast !

trebellbobaggins wrote:So we really are seeing t happen then?

Good, ends cupboard is far from bare, they just need it at the top level.

How do they match the giants Wales hae found? Find some themselves plenty more in eng than Wales generally.

Big isn't always better, Wales have coincidentally got young large & skillful backs from 9 - 14.

Walker was man of the match & isn't that big. He has skill & pace.

trebellbobaggins wrote:So we really are seeing t happen then?

Good, ends cupboard is far from bare, they just need it at the top level.

How do they match the giants Wales hae found? Find some themselves plenty more in eng than Wales generally.

There is always the proviso that things just won't work out for some players. I remember watching Hugo Ellis at this level and thinking that he would one day captain England (or indeed Wales!). But that didn't work out.

Thing is, we are producing so many of these guys (As they said in commentary, England could probably produce 2 teams of this quality quite easily), some of them have got to stick and become first class players... It's the law of fecking averages!

There you go: England U20 2nd XV 40 Wales U20 9.

Problem is to convert that into a 2019 team.

Hmmm.

PJHolybloke wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:Just don't try to move house PJ, they suck at that.

I saw your post the other day, any good yet?

It's a complete debacle. I can't even think about it.

Cumbrian wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:So we really are seeing t happen then?

Good, ends cupboard is far from bare, they just need it at the top level.

How do they match the giants Wales hae found? Find some themselves plenty more in eng than Wales generally.

There is always the proviso that things just won't work out for some players. I remember watching Hugo Ellis at this level and thinking that he would one day captain England (or indeed Wales!). But that didn't work out.

Thing is, we are producing so many of these guys (As they said in commentary, England could probably produce 2 teams of this quality quite easily), some of them have got to stick and become first class players... It's the law of fecking averages!

That's my hope. I think we have a bad year ahead but things will be much better.

trebellbobaggins wrote:So we really are seeing t happen then?

Good, engs cupboard is far from bare, they just need it at the top level.

How do they match the giants Wales hae found? Find some themselves plenty more in eng than Wales generally.

Well guess where North Davies and Cuthbert were born. Not arguing with their choice of team at all mind

WHAT IS WITH QUINNS AND PRODUCING NUMBER 8'S!

lostinwales wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:So we really are seeing t happen then?

Good, engs cupboard is far from bare, they just need it at the top level.

How do they match the giants Wales hae found? Find some themselves plenty more in eng than Wales generally.

Well guess where North Davies and Cuthbert were born. Not arguing with their choice of team at all mind

Not forgetting Warburton of course

Portnoy wrote:There you go: England U20 2nd XV 40 Wales U20 9.

Problem is to convert that into a 2019 team.

Hmmm.

See your man Thunor earlier poking fun at Ieuan Evans. It is not all about winning at this level.

It took what was effectively a new England side a while to get any coherence, but they finished well. If the Italy game hadn't been postponed I think that England could have had 60 points plus tonight.

Given England struggled for years to produce centres it's good to see plenty of them coming through now. Walker and Hill are a nice combination. Ranson was good, Watson too. Robson's passing was a bit off, but the starting front (LCD in particular) and second rows were effective, Yarde is a class act and Quins just can't stop producing good 8s.

I think England may stick with basically this group for the rest of the tournament. Plenty of room for improvement, but we've never had strength in depth like this before at u20 level.

Is anybody genuinely interested at this level?What is the point?Based on results England should be totally dominant.Clearly they are not.Good results at Under 20's appears to mean diddly.Have I missed something?

Taffineastbourne wrote:Is anybody genuinely interested at this level?What is the point?Based on results England should be totally dominant.Clearly they are not.Good results at Under 20's appears to mean diddly.Have I missed something?

Physicality. Some U20 teams are fully developed physicality while others are a few years away from being fully developed. Blacks and Polynesians reach adulthood a few years faster than White people for example. England have some talented footballers but they're ahead in the physicality stakes too.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Is anybody genuinely interested at this level?What is the point?Based on results England should be totally dominant.Clearly they are not.Good results at Under 20's appears to mean diddly.Have I missed something?

I guess your not a 'rugby' supporter per se. I like rugby at all age levels not just the National first team.
Maybe your just a bit sore at seeing Wales lose?

England weren't always dominant at this level but as has previously been stated their current strength in depth is to be commended and bodes well for the future.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Is anybody genuinely interested at this level?What is the point?Based on results England should be totally dominant.Clearly they are not.Good results at Under 20's appears to mean diddly.Have I missed something?

I care because I see front rows, a number 8, centres, wingers and fullback who have the potential to play international rugby for England. There is a very development pathway from u20 to senior side, as demonstrated by the fact our starting 10 and 13 today were in the u20 squad this time last year.

my opinion on why england seem to dominate at this level yet cnt seem to (yet) translate this into seniors...

for me (and someone who watches english rugby feel free to correct me) there are that many foreigners in the eng prem how many of these youngsters miss out on regular first team rugby?

Spot on Gavin.

its a shame because that team that payed last night were very very good and totally outclassed their welsh counterparts....i was watching in a pub with no commentary but the english 12 stood out, see he plays for exeter (which supplied a fair few players to my surprise) how much game time is he getting?

saying that mind out of the welsh 15 only the hooker has started any number of games....but with the drain of payers away from wales these boys will get more exposure

GavinDragon wrote:its a shame because that team that payed last night were very very good and totally outclassed their welsh counterparts....i was watching in a pub with no commentary but the english 12 stood out, see he plays for exeter (which supplied a fair few players to my surprise) how much game time is he getting?

saying that mind out of the welsh 15 only the hooker has started any number of games....but with the drain of payers away from wales these boys will get more exposure

The Exeter guys are dual-registered, mainly with Championship sides but also feature in A league fixtures. They also train with the Prem squad. Really hoping we can bring the guys from last night through to be Prem players along with a few more of our Academy.

With Sturge out for a month or so minimum, think we might be better served with a Mooner/Cowan-Dickie double act at loosehead than trying to convert Tui and Budgie, Moorsman?

I don't think there was much of a size difference here, apart from that one England 2nd row who is about the same height as Luke Charteris. Englands skill at this level is just sublime. That is where they won it I feel. Their attack was extremely potent and in defence they were far better drilled, there were hardly any one on one tackles, there would be a few English boys going in to tackle the same opposition player. Very good stuff seeing as England rotated their squad, the coaching at these levels must be up there with what New Zealand are doing.

As for Wales, well they just look poorly coached. It has been evident in all of their three games so far, not just this one. We have some big guys up front and they aren't being used very well, always going forward in ones and two's. And I know we have an obsession with backs in this country but these guys are just terrible and extremely lacking in the basics. What annoys me is that this is classed as our second team and they don't recieve enough backing from our Union. For example, a number of good players were eligible but not released and playing numbers are small. There will be a few individuals that go on to great honours from this group I'm sure, but the U20s as teams just seem to be poor every year. Even if they look good in the 6 Nations come the JWC is back to square one.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:With Sturge out for a month or so minimum, think we might be better served with a Mooner/Cowan-Dickie double act at loosehead than trying to convert Tui and Budgie, Moorsman?

Agreed, although I think Mooner would start if he hadn't picked up a knock. I've been mighty impressed with L C-D whenever I've seen him play.

GavinDragon wrote:my opinion on why england seem to dominate at this level yet cnt seem to (yet) translate this into seniors...

for me (and someone who watches english rugby feel free to correct me) there are that many foreigners in the eng prem how many of these youngsters miss out on regular first team rugby?

If you look at last year's U20 side very few of them are being kept out by foreigners:

15 Ben Ransom - kept out by Alex Goode
14 Andy Short - 1st choice
13 Elliot Daly - 1st choice
12 Owen Farrell - 1st choice
11 Christian Wade - 1st choice
10 George Ford - kept out by Toby Flood
9 Chris Cook - not 1st XV level yet, possibly never will be
8 Alex Gray - not 1st choice, but getting plenty of game time across the backrow when not injured
7 Matt Kvesic - sharing game time with Abbott, another young Englishman
6 Sam Jones - not 1st XV level yet
5 Charlie Matthews - not quite starting XV level yet, but 1st choice are both Englishmen
4 Joe Launchbury - was a starting XV before his injury
3 Henry Thomas - 1st choice/rotation
2 Mikey Haywood- kept out by Dylan Hartley
1 Mako Vunipola - he's been injured almost the whole season, but at the beginning of the season yes Nieto started with Mako on the bench (he's more a 3 than a 1). Not sure he's quite starting TH level yet though anyway.

The Short who was in the U20 is at Worcester and is not the Saracens winger (I made the same mistake!). But the 1st choice Worcester wingers are both English.

You're quite right, I was thinking of James Short who was 2009 U20 vintage, but like you say, no NEQ wingers at Warriors anyway.

Marlan Yard looks pretty impressive, him and Wade could be a terrific combination on the wings for the mid week summer tour side.

So many talented 13's to choose from as well. But was it just me or did the Eng 12 not do much more then tackle (and score). It might have been the game plan but I was hoping for bit more from him.

Do 12's just take longer to shine then the 13's? I know a lot of the international 12's haven't really hit their best till mid 20's.

isn't Garvey Jamaican qualified?

yappysnap wrote:
So many talented 13's to choose from as well. But was it just me or did the Eng 12 not do much more then tackle (and score). It might have been the game plan but I was hoping for bit more from him.

It was just you - Hill was excellent. He runs hard and straight and whilst not as flashy as many of the emerging backs he has a lovely flat pass, which bears comparison with Twelvetrees'. At only 18 he's a superb prospect: the best IC to come through the age-group system in the academy era in my opinion.

I agree that the u20's look well coahced. In general the backs run excellent lines, whether it's the team that played Scotland or the team that played Wales.

You could look at this game as being:

England U20 B vs Wales B.

For a second string England U20 side to comfortably thrash Wales' official "B" team is omething they should savour for a long time.



Craic aside, is this generation of Wales senior backs a freak generation, the players playing in the U20's were very small by comparison, are there more "monsters" in the production line or is this the future of Welsh backs.

Players that stood out for me; Charlie Walker, so much pace and skill, Tommy Bell, unusual for an English 10 to be able to get an untried backline working like he did, kicking was good and he can dish out the physical stuff. The Wales 10 looked like he was still at school by comparison.

Just Iolo Evans on the wing Well-Past-It, he's a big guy. There is more prospects for us in the forwards in this years team; the front row, Dan Thomas and Ieuan Evans. That's what we need, more forwards.

Charlie Walker is good enough to give Elliot Daly a real run for his money at the JWC - that's pretty impressive.

Bell certainly strikes the ball exceptionally well and did well on debut with a backline that was flung together. There are 3 better FH's in the squad though (Ford, Heathcote, Mills).