So who is to blame for Englands loss?

First topic message reminder :

So who is to blame for Englands loss?


The Ref, Touch Judges, maybe the TMO?

In all honestly no not really, although they did miss a lot, which didn’t help the cause? North’s slapping the ball into touch just as Strettle was about to gather and dive for the line was a big call.

No in all seriousness Lancaster cost England a possible win against Wales, his timing of the subs were poor apart from Farrell (injury) and the mandatory prop subs the rest were the wrong call IMO.

But life moves on and in truth I think we can beat France and gift Wales a championship and a possible Slam, do they deserve it?

Probably.



Well played to the U20 by the way, England U20s 40 - 9 Wales U20s

William Webb Ellis, we can beat them at the kicking only football

PSW
My comment was at least partially tongue in cheek, especially about Botha's charge down. My overall point really was that there was very little between the teams, and a few incidents playing out differently would have changed the whole dynamic of the game - probably the biggest one was when Warbs stopped Tuilagi, as that would have established a good lead for England and would have led to Wales having to chase the game a bit more.

I'm not whinging or having a pop at the ref - Wales won a tight match, and did a better job of taking their chances than we did, even if the chance they took was based on individual skill rather than great team play. Also, they did an exceptional job of avoiding losing the game during the sin bin period.

dummy_half wrote:a better job of taking their chances than we did, even if the chance they took was based on individual skill rather than great team play. Also, they did an exceptional job of avoiding losing the game during the sin bin period.

I agree, well said.

Wales won.









































(by cheating)

dummy

You are right, the game may have gone either way, but the Warbs tackle for me was not as important as the Strettle tap on North in the 2nd minute.

I think Wales have developed a mentality of never say die and chase games regularly, if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO. And lets be honest, North had Roberts on his outside, Evans on his inside, and Foden looking like a rabbit in the headlights, that was a game changer by Strettle who came from nowhere and had no right to see let alone react to what happened!

lady luck then

thebluesmancometh wrote: if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO.

Could you say that again, but just slight more sanctiomonous, consdescending and patronising?

Nonsense. Utter Flibbertygibbert. An early try to North would merely have galvanised England earlier and led to a strong response.

But as it turned out, North bottled it with the line open, blowing a sure scoring opportunity with the line open. Scotland themselves would have been proud of that effort!

Isn't there a separate bickering thread for all this ? Where's Hershy & Tycroe when you need them ?

miteyironpaw wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote: if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO.

Could you say that again, but just slight more sanctiomonous, consdescending and patronising?

Nonsense. Utter Flibbertygibbert. An early try to North would merely have galvanised England earlier and led to a strong response.

But as it turned out, North bottled it with the line open, blowing a sure scoring opportunity with the line open. Scotland themselves would have been proud of that effort!

Mitey I think youre kidding yourself. England were galvanised when France destroyed them in the first 20 minutes, and played pretty well to get back in the game but still lost. That was with a side capable of scoring tries unlike the current "neo Scotland" Lancaster has assembled. The lack of exeprience and leadership is one possible factor for why England made a few poor decisions and plays late in the game which helped Wales get back in it. That would have been exposed even more had they gone behind early. I doubt the crowd would have been so behind them or forgiving either.
In previous games England have held their heads up and responded well though. So we dont ever know what would have happened. But I do think its daft to suggest that letting North score wouldve helped England.


As for Strettles tackle, lets not over egg it. Wasnt it also him that failed to get across and got caught in two minds covering the Williams break/try?

Chris Ashton.

There was nothing meant in it, a 7 pointer hurts everyone in 2 minutes without laying a hand on a simple inside runner, especially when not the fav's for the game, when at home with many Twickers debut's and having struggled to create chance let alone scoring tries against the 2 weakest defences in the tourny.

I wasn't being harsh I was stating facts.

If you think a French try under the posts in 2 minutes V England next up won't destroy English morale you are kidding me!!!

I have to give more credit to Strettle, it was an immense reaction to a lightning quick break, it is a try saver and a game changer!

Strettle wasn't at fault for the Williams try, Lawes was, noone else.

And for the Williams break it's Strettle who is screaming at Tuilagi to come out but he was busy watching the North dummy run, Strettle actually makes a good effort to push William back into Tuilagis grasp.

miteyironpaw wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote: if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO.

Could you say that again, but just slight more sanctiomonous, consdescending and patronising?

Nonsense. Utter Flibbertygibbert. An early try to North would merely have galvanised England earlier and led to a strong response.

But as it turned out, North bottled it with the line open, blowing a sure scoring opportunity with the line open. Scotland themselves would have been proud of that effort!

So North is to blame for not scoring the try and therefore not galvanising England who were insufficiently motivated to win. Is that what you mean?

Chris Ashton for upsetting the Saints/Sarries balance.

in truth- presitland getting sent of could have cost us the game..

Does there have to be someone to blame HERSH? Personally i always thought that it would be a very close game and it was. Dont forget that SL is an intermin manager, the side is largely unsettled and in have very little experience both at international level and playing together.

The signs are very clear in this Irishmans eyes that within the next 3 years, England will be a very very good side. I am already worried about Ireland playing them on Paddy's day.

As for the referee, well the less that can be said about Walsh the best. I feel that he is a poor ref but consistently poor for both sides he ref's.

I am not going into any of the incidents of Saturdays game either as i am sure that they have already been done to death.

Be positive, England have a team that CAN beat Ireland and France...

miteyironpaw wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote: if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO.

Could you say that again, but just slight more sanctiomonous, consdescending and patronising?

Nonsense. Utter Flibbertygibbert. An early try to North would merely have galvanised England earlier and led to a strong response.

But as it turned out, North bottled it with the line open, blowing a sure scoring opportunity with the line open. Scotland themselves would have been proud of that effort!

Jeezus H Christ, what a lot of bollox this guy spews. Do you need a hand building bridges hahahahaha You set a low standard and fail to achieve it.

miteyironpaw wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote: if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO.

Could you say that again, but just slight more sanctiomonous, consdescending and patronising?

Nonsense. Utter Flibbertygibbert. An early try to North would merely have galvanised England earlier and led to a strong response.

But as it turned out, North bottled it with the line open, blowing a sure scoring opportunity with the line open. Scotland themselves would have been proud of that effort!

Its not to be laughed at mitey, there is some truth in what he says. Wales were almost stunned that they didnt score and seemed to go slightly on the back foot. How many times have we seen a team that score a powerful try in the first few minutes and then go on to dominate a match? I actually feel that England became more galvanised because they stopped Wales scoring.

eirebilly wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote: if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO.

Could you say that again, but just slight more sanctiomonous, consdescending and patronising?

Nonsense. Utter Flibbertygibbert. An early try to North would merely have galvanised England earlier and led to a strong response.

But as it turned out, North bottled it with the line open, blowing a sure scoring opportunity with the line open. Scotland themselves would have been proud of that effort!

Its not to be laughed at mitey, there is some truth in what he says. Wales were almost stunned that they didnt score and seemed to go slightly on the back foot. How many times have we seen a team that score a powerful try in the first few minutes and then go on to dominate a match? I actually feel that England became more galvanised because they stopped Wales scoring.

The opposite happened at Wellington when Wales played S Africa. The Saffers scored in the first few minutes if you recall and Wales went on to take it to them all game, lost by a gut wrenching point. Unlike poore mitey and a few other English here the Welsh really did not make huge complaints against Hooks perfectly good kick being disallowed. I mean there is a difference english disallowed try = Sour Grapes and injustice, Wales disallowed penalty = fair and a definate miss. Still the celebrations and sadness were drowned by poth sets of fans in the bars of the capital after the game.

Woodstock wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote: if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO.

Could you say that again, but just slight more sanctiomonous, consdescending and patronising?

Nonsense. Utter Flibbertygibbert. An early try to North would merely have galvanised England earlier and led to a strong response.

But as it turned out, North bottled it with the line open, blowing a sure scoring opportunity with the line open. Scotland themselves would have been proud of that effort!

Its not to be laughed at mitey, there is some truth in what he says. Wales were almost stunned that they didnt score and seemed to go slightly on the back foot. How many times have we seen a team that score a powerful try in the first few minutes and then go on to dominate a match? I actually feel that England became more galvanised because they stopped Wales scoring.

The opposite happened at Wellington when Wales played S Africa. The Saffers scored in the first few minutes if you recall and Wales went on to take it to them all game, lost by a gut wrenching point. Unlike poore mitey and a few other English here the Welsh really did not make huge complaints against Hooks perfectly good kick being disallowed. I mean there is a difference english disallowed try = Sour Grapes and injustice, Wales disallowed penalty = fair and a definate miss. Still the celebrations and sadness were drowned by poth sets of fans in the bars of the capital after the game.

Not wanting to get into another meaningless argument with you, but the kick you are talking about was not over, even if it was referred there was no clear evidence it wnet over, and as far as accpeting it, well that is blatantly untrue.

You weren't around at the time, but the Welsh were bleating about that kick for some time.

Woodstock wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote: if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO.

Could you say that again, but just slight more sanctiomonous, consdescending and patronising?

Nonsense. Utter Flibbertygibbert. An early try to North would merely have galvanised England earlier and led to a strong response.

But as it turned out, North bottled it with the line open, blowing a sure scoring opportunity with the line open. Scotland themselves would have been proud of that effort!

Its not to be laughed at mitey, there is some truth in what he says. Wales were almost stunned that they didnt score and seemed to go slightly on the back foot. How many times have we seen a team that score a powerful try in the first few minutes and then go on to dominate a match? I actually feel that England became more galvanised because they stopped Wales scoring.

The opposite happened at Wellington when Wales played S Africa. The Saffers scored in the first few minutes if you recall and Wales went on to take it to them all game, lost by a gut wrenching point. Unlike poore mitey and a few other English here the Welsh really did not make huge complaints against Hooks perfectly good kick being disallowed. I mean there is a difference english disallowed try = Sour Grapes and injustice, Wales disallowed penalty = fair and a definate miss. Still the celebrations and sadness were drowned by poth sets of fans in the bars of the capital after the game.

You obviously werent on here for the world cup!

The only people moaning about the try are people like Mitey and England Glory who if you hadnt noticed are jokers who do it to get the rise out of people like you. But trust me there were no end of people whinging about the Hook goal, demanding changes to the laws , accussing the ARs of being stood in the right place etc etc ....and lets not even get on to Warburtons red......

PS theres no evidence at all it went over

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Woodstock wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote: if a nervous and inexperienced English team had conceded in 2 minutes without laying a hand on North it would've destroyed them IMO.

Could you say that again, but just slight more sanctiomonous, consdescending and patronising?

Nonsense. Utter Flibbertygibbert. An early try to North would merely have galvanised England earlier and led to a strong response.

But as it turned out, North bottled it with the line open, blowing a sure scoring opportunity with the line open. Scotland themselves would have been proud of that effort!

Its not to be laughed at mitey, there is some truth in what he says. Wales were almost stunned that they didnt score and seemed to go slightly on the back foot. How many times have we seen a team that score a powerful try in the first few minutes and then go on to dominate a match? I actually feel that England became more galvanised because they stopped Wales scoring.

The opposite happened at Wellington when Wales played S Africa. The Saffers scored in the first few minutes if you recall and Wales went on to take it to them all game, lost by a gut wrenching point. Unlike poore mitey and a few other English here the Welsh really did not make huge complaints against Hooks perfectly good kick being disallowed. I mean there is a difference english disallowed try = Sour Grapes and injustice, Wales disallowed penalty = fair and a definate miss. Still the celebrations and sadness were drowned by poth sets of fans in the bars of the capital after the game.

You obviously werent on here for the world cup!

The only people moaning about the try are people like Mitey and England Glory who if you hadnt noticed are jokers who do it to get the rise out of people like you. But trust me there were no end of people whinging about the Hook goal, demanding changes to the laws , accussing the ARs of being stood in the right place etc etc ....and lets not even get on to Warburtons red......

PS theres no evidence at all it went over

I live in NZ I was at the game, like every other Welsh match.
Believe me he does not get a rise out of me pal, he is too far down the food chain to be taken seriously. There is no evidence to suggest it DID NOT go over either, bit like the whinging english last Saturday eh!!! NO evidence he scored a try at all.

By here I meant on the internets! Trust me teh whinging was immense.

Yes there was no evidence taht the ball was downed, which almost everyone ( except Shane Williams) has agreed with...which is why hardly anyones moaning about it except peopel deliberately being silly.

Which is why peopel are questioning why you are caliming the England fans are moaning about the non try, when they arent. Dissapointed that Strettle couldnt score in a brothel with 50 quid tucked in his pants yes, but not angry at the ref/TMO etc.

Who's to blame?

Wales being far superior to England and even winning at HQ playing rubbish.

That is who to blame!

Who's to blame - In all honesty its a failure to develop from 2003 where to some Extent England appear to have sat on their laurels waiting for it all to fall in place.

Who's to blame ? Nobody is surely the helpful answer. In most situations, blame doesn't tend to help resolve or improve. Taking responsibility can, and that is a different thing.

Finding ways to improve, rather than blame, would be a good next step. Thing s could have been an awful lot worse !

Ruby,

If you look at the amount of money the RFU has spent, the amount of players and coaches England have gone through and the amount of reviews theyve had you can hardly accusse them of having sat on their laurels. Add to that the instigation of the EPS system, establishment of RFU academies, and tieing together of all the age grade coaching through to elite level. The the RFU also had their programme of funding top level rugby league players defections (which whilst a massive white elephant is why owen farrell is playing union)

The problem is its been utterly ineffective so far and England for the most part have stayed at the level of just a decent european team. Now we are in a situation where the England fans thing being plucky losers at home to Wales is worthy of national celebration, exactly the sort of thing we used to laugh at the welsh for.

You cant accuse the RFU of not having tried, you can accuse them of incompetance.

Youll notice Rob Andrew is on the panel to appoint the permanent head coach.

You'll notice Rob Andrew is on the panel to appoint the permanent head coach

Along with Connor O'Shea and Geech as well as a representative from the PRL and I think from the players association. I thought the idea was the London recruitment firm sorted this out? At the moment it just looks like Squeaky and friends are going to have a few expensive lunches and charge the RFU for them.

Rob Andrew is the problem...

But I digest, what I don't understand is that the RFU has spent a fortune, and looked at numerous ways to resolve their problem, then tried to impliment one after the other, without giving anything a chance.

They payed Balyi about 10 million squid to research and report on how his LTAD model was implimented in England, he did so, and after reading his report he has basically come to the conclusions similar to my own theory, yet nobody at the RFU decided it was worth looking at seriously!

Then theres the misguided theory of stealing failed rugby league kids, which says it all for the mentality of what is the biggest rugby playing nation in the world, yet they convince themselves they are leagues poor cousin.

Progressive thinking and balls are what the RFU lack, ditch Andrew and riflr through his filing cabinet, find all the good ideas pitched to him and employ one!!!

BlueMan you havn't even digested English spelling properly, let alone English RFU's failings - and there have been a few I agree.
So obsessed with England - do they scare you ? Keep you awake at night ?
Never mind, keep repeating:
"I know England are crap, I know England are crap " . That'll work, and they will never beat Wales again.

Biscuit - On this occasion post 2003 you are very much right and me wrong What they have been busy doing is lots of things that are ineffective - The RFU are like NHS managers by the look on the daft schemes they have come up with, the latest one of course being that recruitment company to research the head coach. That is absolute bananas and wreaks of some clueless toffee nosed twaxs at the top, the sort of influence that Carling to his credit tried to get rid of. They have been very busy since 2003, just like our NHS managers, but are we in a better place,? No - Performance and morale are down and money is being wasted. Wayne Smith even looked at the job description and suggested they were after a PR bloke as opposed to a rugby coach - Get back to basics and get some common sense in there, I keep saying it in the NHS but it aint gonna happen is it.

Ruby, you're obsessed too then ? Worried about England ?

Gregortree

Not obsessed, just involved with the current set up that I don't agree. Rugby is my business, Welsh rugby is my passion!!!

Lawes probably deserves the blame for the Welsh try, but he also deserves to be cited for this off the ball cheap shot on Owens.

https://imgur.com/a/7PtKp

Pushing someone over is hardly a citeable offence Mike.

No, no,it was Chris Ashton for invoking Karma with his rediculous dives.

IronMike wrote:Lawes probably deserves the blame for the Welsh try, but he also deserves to be cited for this off the ball cheap shot on Owens.

https://imgur.com/a/7PtKp

Stand between any forward and the ball carrier and can't cry about getting shoved out the way surely?

Agree with Nobbled. If you're going to play the 'innocent' blocker then you can't be upset if you get knocked over.

You can't blame one person when several England players didn't really turn up. Worst offender I think was Ashton, blinded by his own ego, not the player he was at first.
One English player to praise is Dickson, he made Phillips look supersonic behind the set pieces!

BlueMan, sorry, I must have misunderstood.
I thought English Rugby was your passion.