So who is to blame for Englands loss?

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So who is to blame for Englands loss?


The Ref, Touch Judges, maybe the TMO?

In all honestly no not really, although they did miss a lot, which didn’t help the cause? North’s slapping the ball into touch just as Strettle was about to gather and dive for the line was a big call.

No in all seriousness Lancaster cost England a possible win against Wales, his timing of the subs were poor apart from Farrell (injury) and the mandatory prop subs the rest were the wrong call IMO.

But life moves on and in truth I think we can beat France and gift Wales a championship and a possible Slam, do they deserve it?

Probably.



Well played to the U20 by the way, England U20s 40 - 9 Wales U20s

Ashton in space? Are you kidding, it was an offload but again an effective one? Ashton then goes 5 yards toward the touchline and throws the ball to Warburton!!!

Ive re watched it, all the early pressure from England is from a Strettle offload to Barrit, England go to Wales 5 metre, then 2 phases later Tuilagi butchers the 2 men outside him with 1/2p covering. Strettle comes on a lovely line to go a metre short and then as they go the other way Tuilagi throws a neckbreaker to Foden who he misses and the ball goes to the floor! England advantage though so back for the penalty!

What are you watching????!!!!

Then theres the Farrell chip and regather, despite Tuilagi being on his shoulder he fails to react and when Farrell regathers he is 20 metres behind the game and Farrell takes a neck breaker from North!!!

Even Farrells second chip, no reaction at all from Tuilagi who is nearest man and he makes no attempt to chase at all...

The offload to Ashton, ok but early, couldve commited the 2nd defender, but not bad at all...

On Bothas charge down not only do the English backline not chase up, Tuilagi has his back turned!

Defence now, for the Williams break and butcher Tuilagi is totally bamboozled by a North dummy run and Williams skips around his outside shoulder...

In fact in that same play I'd go as far to say that if Strettle not thrown himself in to cover Tuilagi Williams was under the posts!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ashton in space? Are you kidding, it was an offload but again an effective one? Ashton then goes 5 yards toward the touchline and throws the ball to Warburton!!!

Ive re watched it, all the early pressure from England is from a Strettle offload to Barrit, England go to Wales 5 metre, then 2 phases later Tuilagi butchers the 2 men outside him with 1/2p covering. Strettle comes on a lovely line to go a metre short and then as they go the other way Tuilagi throws a neckbreaker to Foden who he misses and the ball goes to the floor! England advantage though so back for the penalty!

What are you watching????!!!!

How is that not an effective offload it put England into a better position had he just recycled the ball through a ruck.

I think the question is that what game were you watching? You are standing alone here bluesman.

And no one is saying his game was perfect he made some mistakes, so this constant pin pointing of every tiny mistake he has made is pointless.

Also that tackle from Warburton was immense more praise should go to him than any criticism of Tuilagi.

Wales were better 'on their day'.

Plus for Englands turnover that leads to the Williams try how Tuilagi isn't pinged for throwing himself off his feet I don't know...

Coach re read my post, I gave credit to Manu there...

bluesman you dont half spout some rubbish,. The break by williams he has two people outside him absolutley clear and doesnt pass, instead runs into contact ...exactly what you accused Tuilagi "the butcher" of doing even though it wasnt actually the case.

Your desperation to prove a point is just plain embaressing

Sorry boys my last few posts must be really boring but I had to get the analysis software out to play...

And I stand by my original comments, Manu was ok, but certainly not great, made more errors than he made positive moves but did what he's good at.

Just want to make a few point I just picked up, Brad Barritt - WOW! He was much better than I first thought, and Farrell was better than I gave him credit for, better players around him he couldve sent England in for 3 minimum!

Also for the North tip to touch, the ref asks the linesman 3 times, what happened and whos ball is it, the linesman replies last touch red.

And Strettles tap in the first minutes is a try saver, Roberts outsida and Evans inside North with just Foden to beat.

I said Williams butchered that seabiscuit please keep up, it was worse than Tuilagis, but I'm not the one putting Williams into a Lions test jersey.

I am not claiming everything Tuilagi is poor, and that everything Wales is awesome, Wales were quite poo at times.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I said Williams butchered that seabiscuit please keep up, it was worse than Tuilagis, but I'm not the one putting Williams into a Lions test jersey.

I am not claiming everything Tuilagi is poor, and that everything Wales is awesome, Wales were quite poo at times.

But Tuilagi was central to Englands attacking game, his go forward enabled England to play a more expansive game.He also has the ability to create line breaks from nothing. That is why people are touting him for the lions.

You are right mate, he is central to Englands attacking game, and he is capable to break a line from nothing, but Englands attack has come up short, and against top level defences he gets crowded out, he needs to adapt to unbreakable defences, it's very rare you see a first up tackle missed these days at the highest level, and it takes something more than potential to win a test series.

I hope maybe it was his recent injury that meant he was just ok, but we'll see how he does against a depleted and average Irish midfeild, and then against the electric/brutal french pairing.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I said Williams butchered that seabiscuit please keep up, it was worse than Tuilagis, but I'm not the one putting Williams into a Lions test jersey.

I am not claiming everything Tuilagi is poor, and that everything Wales is awesome, Wales were quite poo at times.

You are just straight up lying right now, you said it if hadnt been for the tackle he wouldve been clean under the posts...completley ignoring that he shouldve passed.

If you arent claiming Tuilagi is/was poor why have you spent most of the day inventing reasons ( many of them blatantly incorrect) why he was bad in that game?
What are you trying to say then?

youve been caught out with several wildly inacutare statements, been forced to admit he did some good stuff, yet still search around for every reason to rubbish him.

Meanwhile every actual analyst out there has him as one of the best players of the weekend. Id happily cede though that the best indviudal play was Williams strip and kick for the try, but that doesnt mean Tuilagi wasnt massively effective over 80 minutes.

thebluesmancometh wrote:You are right mate, he is central to Englands attacking game, and he is capable to break a line from nothing, but Englands attack has come up short, and against top level defences he gets crowded out, he needs to adapt to unbreakable defences, it's very rare you see a first up tackle missed these days at the highest level, and it takes something more than potential to win a test series.

I hope maybe it was his recent injury that meant he was just ok, but we'll see how he does against a depleted and average Irish midfeild, and then against the electric/brutal french pairing.

But he broke several first up tackles.

And he wasnt the one that led to England attacks breaking down. If you want that go to Strettle, Ashton, Youngs and Farrell.

I don't want to get back into this argument, I'll just say that after using the software, he is not in the top 3 of performances for English backs, Farrell and Barritt were outstanding, and everything Strettle did was positive, Manu just makes too many mistakes spo far, a bit of maturity maybe then...

thebluesmancometh wrote:everything Strettle did was positive

Your software must be broken thinks Strettle running into traffic and getting isolated for a penalty was positive. Or his missed tackles.....
keep on making up facts, it only grows the case youre talking rubbish.

Your embarassing yourself now mate...

I don't claim Strettle is a better player, I don't claim Tuilagi is a bad player, but if I was taking the analysis session, of which Ive heard the software is similar, can't confirm with the RFU, WRU is the same software, Tuilagi will be staring down the dark end of a pile of mistakes, whereas Strettle will be looking at a few more back pats.

Maybe expectation is higher, maybe England were relying on Tuilagi too much, maybe your opinion of the mighty Tuilagi is bloated, or maybe just maybe you aren't looking at this from a neutral perspective and hold a slight bias ( a bit like a dad on the sideline screaming at the boy who tackled his son too hard, not because it's HIS son but just because iot was dirty)

Whose to blame? Meh... Harsh to pint the finger and single anyone out but you can be forgiven for having a moan or two..

-Lawes for allowing Williams to rob the ball of him.
-Not capitilsing on the sin bin.
-Youngs and Stevens having mares.
-Allowing Wales to cheaply steal the ball countless times.

Reflect on the positives, iron out the negatives and move on ffs!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Your embarassing yourself now mate...

I don't claim Strettle is a better player, I don't claim Tuilagi is a bad player, but if I was taking the analysis session, of which Ive heard the software is similar, can't confirm with the RFU, WRU is the same software, Tuilagi will be staring down the dark end of a pile of mistakes, whereas Strettle will be looking at a few more back pats.

Maybe expectation is higher, maybe England were relying on Tuilagi too much, maybe your opinion of the mighty Tuilagi is bloated, or maybe just maybe you aren't looking at this from a neutral perspective and hold a slight bias ( a bit like a dad on the sideline screaming at the boy who tackled his son too hard, not because it's HIS son but just because iot was dirty)

Right so once again youve ignored the content of the post and shifted the goalposts of the argument again.
Its you who pre decided he was rubbish ( making incorrect arguments to support it) then allegedly ran this through a software which highlighted further factually incorrect arguments.

Despite that you turn this into a personal attack on me for highlighting this, whilst failing to address the wide holes in your claims.

I can only assume you are (successfuly) on the wind up.

You are on a planet of your own mate, I posted a hole thread earlier regarding how I like Tuilagi but he was only ok on saturday!!!

I think the worst thing I said about him is that he's very islander esque and that I wouldn't put him near a lions test jersey yet!!!

Please either argue the facts or insult me, but at least do one or the other succesfully!!!

If your English it's a shame you lost. If your Welsh it's great we won. What's it got to do with blame??

Two improving teams produced a good match.

For what it's worth, Gatland has learned a couple of things that an England coach might appreciate. Firstly,trust talented youth. SL seems to be doing that. Secondly, know your best 15. Until recently this was easy in Wales as we had little depth below the obvious first choice. In England IMO it's the biggest problem - little selection consistency.

How about George North?

Seeing that Strettle had touched down with the ball held loosely in one hand (small winger's hands), he grabs the ball and tries to play on, pretending that Strettle hadn't grounded the ball.

Lady luck according to the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/9109103/Wales-were-lucky-to-beat-England-to-win-the-Triple-Crown.-And-that-is-not-a-dirty-word-in-sport.html

I liked him as a Glamorgan cricketer, but that is a terrible piece.

A bit of luck never hurt a team, especially in a close match.

England could have been in for 3 tries, and it was only a matter of inches or the bounce of a ball from all three:
1 - Tuillagi being taken down by Warburton's exceptional last gasp diving tackle. Had it been our day, MT would have kept his feet and been over
2 - Botha's charge down. Needs a lesson from Hodgson on how to make sure the charge down goes into in-goal rather than bouncing away sideways...Again, on another day he gets an easy touch down.
3 - Strettle's plays late in the game, firstly with North's illegal but unpenalised pushing the ball into touch, then the one that he really should have scored if Brown had delayed his pass a step or two..

OK, Wales had a couple of chances as well that they failed to take - Strettle's tap tackle on North was another 'inches' moment, and Williams butchered one try-scoring chance, but then redeemed himself with the steal, kick and chase, regather and score.

Is nobody blaming Lawes? After all this tremendously strong athlete, who's an absolute monster in the loose, has the strength of an entire scrum, add whatever ridiculous comment you like it won't be any more exaggerated than anything Stuart Barnes and the other rugby club faithful spurt when talking about him.
Anyway, this monstrous lock had the ball ripped out of his giant hands and iron vice like grip by the smallest man on the Wales team. This ultimately led to the try.

Ok, it took a wonderful bit of individual skill and pace to score the try but if Lawes hadn't let the ball be taken off him England could have got a draw.
I thought he may have taken a bit of grief about this but it seems a he's a bit of a favourite he can do no wrong. A bit like Priestland for Wales, he had a mare but it seems most people are ready to defend him. Had it been wellies theyd be calling for his head. Similarly had a different lock lost the ball to Williams he would have been under fire a bit.

Dummy you can never ensure the angle the ball will ricochet and bounce, and he was running at Preistland form an angle rather than head on anyway.
England were extremly lucky to win the Scotland game, rode their luck a bit to beat Italy. They were possibly unlucky not to get a draw form this one. On balance you cant really moan about the "inches" moments or refs calls.

Wales will have one of the jammiest most devalued slams ever and should be ashamed of themselves for breathing but dont kid yourself England were the better side on the day or through the tournament.

Back to the OP....

I think a general lack of discipline and direction at the top.

overlordofthewest wrote:Is nobody blaming Lawes? After all this tremendously strong athlete, who's an absolute monster in the loose, has the strength of an entire scrum, add whatever ridiculous comment you like it won't be any more exaggerated than anything Stuart Barnes and the other rugby club faithful spurt when talking about him.
Anyway, this monstrous lock had the ball ripped out of his giant hands and iron vice like grip by the smallest man on the Wales team. This ultimately led to the try.

Ok, it took a wonderful bit of individual skill and pace to score the try but if Lawes hadn't let the ball be taken off him England could have got a draw.
I thought he may have taken a bit of grief about this but it seems a he's a bit of a favourite he can do no wrong. A bit like Priestland for Wales, he had a mare but it seems most people are ready to defend him. Had it been wellies theyd be calling for his head. Similarly had a different lock lost the ball to Williams he would have been under fire a bit.

A lot of people have been gunning for him for that one moment, declaring him to be utterly useless and solely responsible for the demise of the Euro. Its ridiculous. Aside from getting stripped ( and we cant see exactly what happened for that to occur ) he played well.
At the moment he happened what was he doing? Driving forward into the tackle knowing he was slightkly isolated so staying on his feet whilst support arrived, putting his team on the front foot for the resulting ruck. Williams did brilliantly to mug him and nick the ball, Lawes didnt appear to be holding it loosely and I find it hard to beleive he was so weak he just let go because of a chinese burn or something. It was just one turnover of many in the game, a crucial obne but Williams was the guy that made the try, even if Lawes had handed him the ball youd still have to look at what Williams then did ( and arguably a bit of luck in the bounce from the kick being straight ) for why the try was scored.


Im surprised noone has bought up the legendary Welsh fitness levels again. It was pretty clear a chunk of the England side were shot by the time Wales scored ( including Farrell who was done on about 60).

slartibartfast wrote:Back to the OP....

I think a general lack of discipline and direction at the top.

Nope we have some bloke who used to run tennis in charge at the RFU now, its all tight and professional now. Its good to see theyyve drafted in someone with a proven record of pushing on a sport and producing British talent rather than p1ssing millions down a black hole (cough cough)

Add to that all the advice Lancasters getting from some football player who tried to get his team to strike and a welsh bloke who signed up a load of south africans and an irishman to masquerade as the england cricket team and as Shane Williams said " The future is rosy for England"

The RFU is back.

[quote="Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler"]

overlordofthewest wrote:
Im surprised noone has bought up the legendary Welsh fitness levels again. It was pretty clear a chunk of the England side were shot by the time Wales scored ( including Farrell who was done on about 60).

A good point. The substitutes that came on, and came on in numbers also reduced the fluency of the English game (which wasn't exactly flowing freely before.)

I blame the scapegoats.

miteyironpaw wrote:I blame the scapegoats.

That's in the top ten comments on here, ever.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Lady luck according to the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/9109103/Wales-were-lucky-to-beat-England-to-win-the-Triple-Crown.-And-that-is-not-a-dirty-word-in-sport.html

There is no such thing as luck. It is merely an emotional response to an outcome and an example of our need to post-rationalise everything.

Wales were lucky, England were plucky and unlucky

thebluesmancometh wrote:If HERSH bashes your rugby knowledge you know it's time to retire!!!

You forgot the English Women too HERSH, they also beat Wales. Oh and there was a table tennis match on the weekend where Chris wordsworth beat Rhdri Jones by a full set...

And you forgot that England are above Wales in the 7's circuit this year, and last year, and the year before that, and. Is 7s really rugby though? Perhaps not.

HERSH wrote:Wales were lucky, England were plucky and unlucky

The accurate translation is Wales won. England weren't good enough!!

"Im surprised noone has bought up the legendary Welsh fitness levels again. It was pretty clear a chunk of the England side were shot by the time Wales scored ( including Farrell who was done on about 60). "

Disagree in some part. Yes OW had cramp and had to leave the field and others were blowing. BUT there were plenty of Welshies with hands on their knees so it wasn't one sided by any means. Another one-eyed comment from the quasi welshman who doesn't really know which side he supports. Counselling might help him.

LUCK ?: Of course, rugby is set up for it. Down to the design of the peculiarly shaped balls.
Ergonomically well suited for handling, but demonically designed to give total chaos off the ground (Remember the 'kick & chaos' school of rugby ?)
In the professional era, players' fitness, speed of eye/hand, synapses, reactions have all been finely tuned to deal with the devilish randomness of the ball's behaviour.
Good kickers learn to compensate for this of course.
But that funny old ball is more full of tricks than a bag of monkeys. The best teams train professionally to conquer and order that chaos.
So player skills are an absolute must have. But luck never totally surrenders to skill. This to me is part of the beauty and fascination of this crazy game.
Could have been a draw, even an England win. But I think Wales were the better team on the day, well deserved win for them. England defended well, not quite well enough.
So come on ! Bring on the next game !

The problems I see are thus. The Northampton contingent seem to be out of form. This is awkward as there is no other hooker than Hartley who can come in and take over. However, Brown can come in for the seriously off form Foden and the anonymous Ashton can be replaced by Sharples.

Youngs seems to have no confidence and needs to return to Tigers. Now that Farrell has been taught how to pass he needs to be taught how to stand flat as standing 15m behind the gainline leaves a lot of work for the outside backs to do as the opposition defence happily drifts across.

Who's to blame? Easy. Its the England team for failing to score more points and with a pinch of poor refereeing added in.

Wales defended well but England had chances and didn't take them. Overall I thought England looked the stronger side and certainly finished with a flourish. The unusual rip from Lawes' grasp made the Welsh look better than they were. Fine margins indeed. But England will get better, they are going in the right direction under SL. We need good performances in the remaining games.

They were better for long periods, but even then not quite good enough. I would keep Lancaster.

The jury is out on Lancaster. We were lucky in the first two games and unlucky against Wales. Continued progress and some positive rugby over the next couple of games with a victory in one of them would set him in a good position. Two losses and no improvement on the limited attack (despite the excellent resources) should see him out the running. It's all to play for.

Scot Williams