The Anti-climax of Defeat - England RWC Exit discussion thread

by sirtidychris Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:01 pm

Edit - KRD. All, I've merged several of the English exit threads into one

Martin johnson today made some very odd team selection decisions, Which for me almost singlehandley resulted in our loss to france. Here are the main ones that really a better international coach would have done differently.

1)Johny Wilkinson...An englsh hero but he has been very poor in this world cup, he stands too deep and is too predictable these days for top defenses, his strengths were always his goal kicking which were terrible this campaign, he had to be on the bench. why did he start when toby flood is much more threatening to defenses, has been in better form in hand and boot and has a great KRDunderstanding with youngs.

2) Matt stevens got smashed against the scots, anyone with half a brain cell knew that alex corbisiero is a much better specialist loosehead that had to start against one of the most destructive tightheads in the world, bizarely johnson started stevens again and he cost us 6 points and the scrum was going backwards until corbs made an entrance.

3)Louis Deacon a solid aviva premiership lock, but invisible on the international pitch, he is meant to be a good scrummager but when you select decent props you don't need to select a lock solely on his ability to push !. Simon Shaw was having an immense tournament he was everywhere when he played. Courtney Lawes also offers so much more, why these two players were behind plodding deacon i'll never know.

4) Lewis Moody and Nick Easter. These i think were the toughest calls, moody is the captain and easter the only real English number with experience. In fairness today easter was solid at the back of the scrums and moody was moody. However, easter was too slow to the breakdowns as predicted and too slow going forward...all he offered was slow crash ball and solidity at a scrum going in reverse, however the french back three were everywhere, haskell has been one of our best players all tournament, he runs all day and gets to the breakdowns and also plays in France he would have been the ideal player for this game. Moody is not the player he once was and i feel Tom wood offers so much more these days, if moody started then at least wood should have been on the bench.

5) The english midfield is a 1000 word article on its own ! but wilkinson and flood was never going to work and busting it out in a world cup 1/4 final resulted in a backline that was completely clueless in attack and defense. Hape for all his detractors knows how to play in the 12 shirt for england and would have formed a soild defensive line and great crash ball...... remember Youngs, Flood, Hape, Ashton Cueto Foden all have played together regularly as a back line including the wins over France in this years six nations and the thrashing of Australia.

Johnsons selections lost us this game, he is too faithfull to the players he used to pay with and underperforming players (remember how long it took him to ditch Borthwick !) when he brought on the subs the game changed straight away but it was too late.

by stlowe Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:07 pm

I think most people would agree that England need a complete clear out of the coaching set up, but who should be brought in, and is a new manager needed as well?

What of the players, do we need to keep a few older heads around to help transition players in, or is it time to turn the whole team over to the future asap?

by PJHolybloke Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:08 pm

Tin hat time for Johnno, no doubt about it.

by TheGreyGhost Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:13 pm

Totally believe it was lost at 10/12. They looked clueless in the first half, until Tuilagi straightened it up, or it got hopefully shovelled wide.

Flood is not an IC. I thought Jonno reverted to type and had to name his old buddy in the squad somewhere, even though everyone could see that Flood is in better form, and was at the helm when England peaked around a year ago. Sure Flood had fallen off in form since then, but JW in his pomp was a good solid kicking 10. When his kicking fell apart it should have been obvious that he should be rested.

Same mistakenly loyalty that plagued SCW on the Lions tour of 2005...and we're 6 years on from that.

Foden had a shocker under pressure again (what was he thinking with that quick line out to himself?) depsite finishing a try well. He's been suspect under pressure for some time as I've pointed out.

Ashton, I've called a flat track bully in the past, and I think that showed again today. He was hanging out on his wing being exactly the player that he was celebrated for not being a year ago.

England have tried to build a more expansive game, and it was successful for them a year ago, but since then they've slowly drifted into limbo. The pack is more mobile but they've lost their route one impetus and solidity in the set pieces. They not longer have a reliable boot and the back line lacks a distributor and a coach.

Cut out the deadwood, and tweak the tactics and this is a good team. Don't throw the baby out with the world cup dream.

by **LondonTiger** Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:20 pm

It must be hard for the players and coaches, but it is for the fans as well. Just a few hours ago you are in the QFs and hoping for a semi final that you can certainly win - on a good day. Dreams of a final linger in the back of your mind. Then who knows, maybe, just maybe.

The anthems play, your boys look fired up, the dream is on.

Then 80 minutes later it is over. You have lost. You are out. The better team on the day won, but oh you could/should have done so much better. The dream is dead.

For Wales and France the dream is still very much on. For the English and Irish it is time to choose their second team. As I am a masochist ....... Go Pumas!!!

by Geordie Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:24 pm

Im still backing South Africa....

......besides i have Kiwi, Welsh and Aussies mates...and my life would be unbareable if one of them won Wink

by SB Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:32 pm

I can't believe what I watched this morning. I can't really believe what I've watched all tournament, and I can't get over the way some of the players within the squad felt like they could behave in the manner they did. A couple of quiet beers after a game is acceptable, but to visit nightclubs and get smashed? And then be surprised when New Zealand, that Rugby minnow, turns out to be a bit of a "goldfish bowl"? It beggars belief.

Then what were Hartley, Ashton and Haskell doing making lewd suggestions to a hotel worker? Again, in this surprise "goldfish bowl" - did they think it would blow over?

And for Martin Johnson to allow such corrupting behaviour to consume the squad is crazy - and I'm certain that there must have been splits and divisions within the squad. The 'thinkers' and the 'drinkers' as I read.

Where do England go from here? No chairman of the RFU, a coaching set-up bereft of ideas and any vision, and a group of overpaid prima donnas who believed their own hype. In short, they're in limbo.

I hope the England squad do feel bad, ashamed, guilty and angry - because they've only themselves to blame.

by kiakahaaotearoa Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:32 pm

My sympathies. It´s tough being dumped out so early. Wales and Ireland could play again tomorrow and no doubt there could well be a different result. Knockout rugby is harsh but you have to pay respect to the team who beat you on the day.

Four years can seem like a long time but there´s plenty of rugby in between to see your teams battle for the top. I hope nobody does anything rash and try to sack either Decs or MJ. A bit of continuity is warranted for two coaches who were on the right path. These results are disappointing but both the victors looked good out there today. No shame in losing to performances like that. Chins up.

by TheGreyGhost Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:37 pm

Geordie, I can't imagine your Kiwi fans being unbearable. History shows (if you have a long enough memory) that we're tremdously modest in victory.

by GavinDragon Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:38 pm

it reminds me of where you guys were under robson in 2004, however the thing is this team started to play some really good rugby over the last 18months six nation champions this year and beating SH teams home and away show the class your team has.....what went wrong?

by Geordie Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:39 pm

Kia,

I dont think many fans would really want MJ sacked...we have progressed...6n champs etc. and a young squad

I think what we want is to see that inept waste of space John Wells and the rest of the useless coaching staff ousted...and replaced with people who can coach properly.

And also see Johno get his selection policy right, which at times is horrific....

by Geordie Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:40 pm

GG

I think we can all gloat success with our mates from other countries...and im no exception... Wink

Its all good banter....if your team won.... Very Happy

by Cumbrian Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:48 pm

I've said elsewhere, we really do need to guard against knee-jerk reactions. Some of the coaching staff definitely need to go though, England looked like they'd never seen each other a times during this tournament. As I've said elsewhere too, we've got the bones of a good and young team, they need the direction to go with it though.

by kiakahaaotearoa Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:52 pm

It´s inevitable that all the stories about dwarves, bungee jumping ad nauseum will come out now to be used against the players. A real shame because that will detract from the fact that France came out and took the game away from England in the first half. In a post I made earlier this week, the mental fortitude of England - so often one of their strengths - seemed to be held by the French today particularly in the first half. England were forced into silly errors and looked fragile when points ticked over against them. To their credit they came back in the second half but the damage was done by then.

by racingnut Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:58 pm

If you play like a ship with no rudder or run around like a headless chicken then you are going to get nothing and we got what we deserved in spades.Frenetic,schoolboy passing,no composure,ill discipline,poor on field decisions...it goes on and on.Cant blame Johnson totally although some of the team selections have raised more than a few eyebrows.Flood just isnt an inside centre and his awful habit of wanting to offload at the point of tackle cost us at least three golden opportunities but you cant lay the blame at one persons door,the truth is we never really turned up at this WC,for what reason i dont know and the tournament certainly aint the poorer for our exit.Think its time for some of the old guard to go and lets start the rebuild for 2015.Tuilagi has been the one real stand out but it ended up with us depending on his defensive prowess and not capitalizing on his thunderous attacking capabilities.

by perand25 Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:02 pm

I am gutted but not surprised by todays result .The thing that really gets me is that the team just seem stupid .How can a squad with a fair bit of potential be so inept ,they get in good positions then blow it by forcing the most ridiculous passes like Flood off the floor in the second half when France were under real pressure,They took their one chance against Scotland but today they fluffed a fair few .They need a decent Captain as Moody is as much good as a dog chasing a frisbee into oncoming traffic ,i have never seen him rallying the team . Time to get rid of the old guard and start bringing in some of the very good U21 side

by stlowe Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:04 pm

Will Johnson accept being told he needs a new coaching team, or will he show stubborn loyalty?

Who are the prime candidates to replace the current coaches? Someone in there needs to have a good selection brain because Johnson definitely falters there.

by Geordie Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:08 pm

Outs from NOW-
Shaw, Moody. Easter, Stevens, Wilkinson
Cueto, Tindall, Wilson, Thompson, Deacon
Wigglesworth, Banahan,
Any ive missed....

by perand25 Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:09 pm

Toby Booth

by Cowshot Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:11 pm

Compare and contrast with the Cricket set up at present. It's instructive as to what a difference there is between the way things are in a sport well run, and another where the board is consumed by infighting and empire building. Cricket is a slick, professional machine. Rugby Union? Er, no.

Wells and Ford have been past it for some years. I was prepared to give them a chance when some things seemed to be going a bit right, but they've been a disaster. They are employed by the Board, who haven't been paying sufficient attention.

So sandwiched between selfishness and inadequacy, Johnson hasn't done badly, overall. Give him a helpful Board and a decent set of coaches and things will be different, imo.

by radelven Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:18 pm

perand25 wrote:They need a decent Captain

Who will that be? Has to be a forward for me, that's certainly where we need the most direction. Hartley? Croft? Maybe Robshaw if he can cement himself as a starter?

by perand25 Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:24 pm

radelven wrote:
perand25 wrote:They need a decent Captain

Who will that be? Has to be a forward for me, that's certainly where we need the most direction. Hartley? Croft? Maybe Robshaw if he can cement himself as a starter?

I would choose Croft as he seems to be one of the few with a nailed down spot , other that him i have no idea

by radelven Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:27 pm

Stevens getting a lot of criticism, and generally rightly so, but I'm not sure about discarding him altogether as some have suggested. What has certainly been proven is that he's not a LH starter. If he's to start it has to be on his preferred TH or probably more likely as a bench option where you need someone who can cover both sides (something few can do).

by stlowe Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:35 pm

I'd probably go for Hartley as captain. He's a guaranteed starter if Thompson is being retired and he's been a pretty good captain for Saints, a role he's held for a few years now and that has brought out the best in him.

by Cymroglan Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:39 pm

The Anti-climax of Defeat

I'm not sure if I read it in Jonny Wilkinson's book or he said it when being interviewed. I remember him saying how empty he felt after winning the world cup in 2003 it was a anticlimax for him.
The group stages quarters semi and final were a roller coaster but after the initial excitement of winning within 24 hours he felt a powerful feeling of anticlimax.

by gavstar Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:48 pm

As a Welsh supporter I'm over the moon with Wales, but as a rugby supporter I would like to see posters at least give credit to the English players who have done ok this rwc, played well and kept their names out of the press, it's not fair to label them all the same.
I think the 'side show' has had more effect on Wilkinson than anyone else. He's said he has ocd and these disturbances to the 'Calm discipline' has had mental repercussions. He is unable to reason mentally with the attitude and behaviour of some when he is so dedicated and a true professional.

by Geordie Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:50 pm

Is Hartley the answer to the hooker position though?

For all his skills is Croft what we need at 6? Do we need a monster at 6, with an actual fetcher at 7...instead of 6.5's

We have alot in place that is positive...but still a few questions and they were raised again today.

At least part of one of our big problems....midfield was finally fixed today...Tuilagi is the real deal...

by Cumbrian Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:56 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Outs from NOW-
Shaw, Moody. Easter, Stevens, Wilkinson
Cueto, Tindall, Wilson, Thompson, Deacon
Wigglesworth, Banahan,
Any ive missed....

Lee Mears & Shontayne Hape

Andrew Sheridan might need to start thinking about his health after rugby (It's okay though because we've got Marler to hype up to the Gods).

James Hasell is moving abroad, ruling himself out of contention. Armitage may be following his brother to France, so he might be out of contention too.

by mckay1402 Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:01 pm

The thing you have to remember is that it's only a year ago that many Wales fans were calling for Gatland to step down after the Fiji match. We haven't changed anything about our coaches but it seems that perhaps everything he has been working for has come to fruition. Maybe this world cup was a bit too early for England.

Johnson definitely needs to bring in some properly talented youth. There is plenty of it in England so I can't see why he wouldn't.

by Cumbrian Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:02 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Hartley the answer to the hooker position though?

For all his skills is Croft what we need at 6? Do we need a monster at 6, with an actual fetcher at 7...instead of 6.5's

We have alot in place that is positive...but still a few questions and they were raised again today.

At least part of one of our big problems....midfield was finally fixed today...Tuilagi is the real deal...

I wonder this, they seem to lack power to break tackles and make ground. Who can England throw the ball to in heavy traffic and say 'Go on, make some ground'? Croft, Moody and to a certain extent Wood are all tall rangy players who are quick but lack ballast. Who are the ball carriers?

by gavstar Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:05 pm

Where are the positive comments from the English posters, re my post 'not all bad' you are being too harsh on the team as a whole.

by Cowshot Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:08 pm

gavstar: We're looking for what was wrong, not what is right.

by Cymroglan Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:10 pm

There has to be more right than wrongs ? you only lost one match in this world cup.

by HammerofThunor Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:12 pm

Trouble is it seems to be the same wrongs that have been there for years. We turn to the experienced players for leadership and don't get any. If playing experienced players, who aren't the best in their position, isn't giving us leadership then why pick them?

by perand25 Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:17 pm

Cymroglan wrote:There has to be more right than wrongs ? you only lost one match in this world cup.

But we were very lucky against Scotland and Argentina.

by TheGreyGhost Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:18 pm

Getting a giggle from the BBC coverage. Presently the lead article is about England's exit, rather than Welsh progression.

Even under the Wales section, they're still talking about England.

"
WELSH
France beat England to book Wales semi clash
"

The article links to a story about England, a run down of the game, ponderings on MJ's future...

by EnglishReign Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:18 pm

Brutal truth is, we haven't been that great except for a couple of excellent Aussie wins but we've still won most of the other games. I think the wins have papered over cracks and given MJ false belief in some of the players, maybe this WC will be a good thing in the long run. It isn't just about "getting the win" in my opinion, you need to win well to get anywhere and it astounds me that a man of experience and past glory, like Johnson, can think otherwise.

by perand25 Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:24 pm

I also think that England think they are better than they actually are.

by aitchw Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:27 pm

Jonno is never going to be a creative thinker when it comes to selection or coaching. He is the perfect fit for a dowdy, unimaginative RFU. England have player development progression that only Tuilagi seems to have managed to circumvent so no matter how well the age groups do they will take forever to emerge onto the senior stage and by then most of them will have had every ounce of creativity coached out of them.

This should be the perfect time to clear out the dead wood but I won't be holding my breath waiting for it. There some good youngsters in the squad to build on but will we see it?

by Geordie Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:27 pm

English reign...great players dont always make great coaches..

I think most England fans think we had made progress since the dark days after the 2003 WC.
6n champions, a young squad with huge potential coming through the clubs aswell....

But there are glaring issues...

1) The Back Row
2) The midfield (though 13 looks sorted now)
3) Leadership / captaincy
4) The Breakdown / Penalties
5) Johnos Selection policy...
6) Several of the coaches

Hopefully with numerous enforced retirements we can bring in some of the young players who can make the changes....

by PJHolybloke Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:29 pm

It's all a bit too raw for me at the moment, I'll sleep on it and make my own conclusions another day.

I never expected England to get past the QF's, but the manner of the defeat has left me feeling very confused.

I'm pretty convinced England need a whole new blueprint for success, whatever's in place at the moment clearly isn't working.

by radelven Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:37 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Hartley the answer to the hooker position though?

For all his skills is Croft what we need at 6? Do we need a monster at 6, with an actual fetcher at 7...instead of 6.5's

We have alot in place that is positive...but still a few questions and they were raised again today.

At least part of one of our big problems....midfield was finally fixed today...Tuilagi is the real deal...

What are the options though?

At hooker, Gray? Webber? I think they'll need a bit more work and time personally. Certainly not guaranteed starters.

Are there any fetcher 7s about? Rees' career looks in question, Armitage is in France, Saull has been inconsistent, as has the currently good Seymour (I'm not sure either are the classic fetchers you are after though) and as much hope as I have for Kvesic he's not even a starter for his club yet.

If we're ditching the old guard for the 6N, I'd back Hartley as captain, there's no one better than him in his position at present, he's a proven captain and he seems to play better and take on more with that responsibility.

by TheGreyGhost Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:39 pm

You don't think that there were so many Kiwis in the team, it was obvious they'd choke in the QFinal? Run

Relax. I had to say it once. I'm done now. king

by tazfalklands Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:16 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:You don't think that there were so many Kiwis in the team, it was obvious they'd choke in the QFinal?

Relax. I had to say it once. I'm done now.

GG if the real ABs choke in their quarter then I will shoot myself

but on a serious note what England need

1 A genuine open side, Thanks for the laughs but Lewis Moody won't be their in 4 years so bye.
2 Someone to match Tuilaggi in the centres, A creative player a la Jerry Guscott/Will Greenwood
3 On pitch leadership/Captain Croft good choice as he is one of the few players who kept a clear head right through the RWC. Lawes late tackle knee drop and other indiscretions when he grows up might be an option. Hartley Involved in Walkie Talkie Gate and also I think the Problem they had on the Last tour South, poor choices off the feild would be reflected on the field.
4 Coaches need to change (Jonno is a manager and gets until after 6N 2013). A change at RFU might allow the return of Brian Ashton to coach the backs(he is a brilliant coach but was let down by the management structure when he was head coach), or we need to steal Shaun Edwards back from the Welsh.
5 Come out of the gates with all guns firing in the 6 Nations and Look to play from the first whistle don't jog round for the first 30 mins

by Geordie Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:24 pm

1) Lewis Moody shouldnt have been there THIS WC.....

5)
Thats something ive noticed aswell....why do other teams come out blasting and looking to take on anything...yet we look half asleep...out for a jog. Leadership again!....Whos doing the team talks is not getting them fired up.

by PJHolybloke Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:38 pm

Re point 5

I remember seeing footage of Johnno (in his playing days) in a dressing room just before the team were about to leave, all the players were on their feet and he turned to them and said something along the lines of:

"Come on then, who's going to be first in? Who's gonna be the first one to put the big hit in, who's going to be first to make them hurt? Come on, let's get stuck in out there and make everything count"

It's probably not the best paraphrasing, but you get the idea.

The backs used to climb into people for Johnno - what the hell's happened?

by Cymroglan Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:49 pm

PJ the difference is he was also doing it with them he was leading by example but different tactics are needed when you join the management side of things.
I may be totally wrong but I think he is too aggressive by nature to be on the coaching management staff.

by majesticimperialman Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:55 pm

What changes would you make to (A) The England team

(B) The England coaching staff.

Personaly i dont think that Martin Johnson should go, Since he came into the England set England have been a better team, he as made plenty of changes himself, giving the likes of Tuhalagi, Wiggleworth a chance to see what they can do.

I do think that he may have hung on to long to the likes of Moody, Shaw, Easter, a bit to long he should of got rid sooner(before the RWC)started IMHO.

With regards to the England coaching staff? iI will leave that to your disgretion.

Disscuss.

by PJHolybloke Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:56 pm

Cymroglan wrote:PJ the difference is he was also doing it with them he was leading by example but different tactics are needed when you join the management side of things.
I may be totally wrong but I think he is too aggressive by nature to be on the coaching management staff.

Maybe you're right though Cymro, I don't think I'd like to see Johnno leave the England setup but that could be for purely nostalgic reasons?

I would certainly agree that he isn't entirely comfortable in his current role though, so maybe he'll move on voluntarily and save everyone the grief? He's no coach I know, but if he were I'd love to see him sort out England's forwards...

by doctor_grey Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:01 pm

But who else is on the horizon as an alternative? Edwards star has been tarnished. Jim Mallinder is often mentioned as a possible future coach/manager of England, but has a ways to go yet.

I think the probabilities are we keep MJ, but the attack coach must go. What does the attack coach do when the team has no attack? He should fall on his sword.

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