A new Pro 12 (16) format for the future?

How about a future 4 mini leagues in a league?

Pool 1
Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Connacht

Pool 2
Ospreys
Scarlets
Dragons
Cardiff

Pool 3
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Borders
Caledonia Reds

Pool 4
Treviso
Aironi
Rome?
Prato?

Every team plays the three teams in their pool 3 times each = 9 derby games
Every team plays the other 12 teams once, 6 away, 6 at home = 12 games
Top 2 of each pool qualify for the quarter finals, seeded based on pool points = 3 games max.
Total = 21 regular season games, 3 knockout rounds
1 game less than the current format. More derbies. Less travel to other nations.
Top 3 from the Welsh and Irish pools, and top 2 from the Scottish and Italian pools qualify for HEC.
Nobody gets automatic qualification for HEC but all 4 nations still have representation

I know it's unlikely Scotland could afford 2 more teams. Not sure about Italy.
But in the hypothetical situation that both nations could field 2 more teams, do you think this would be a good format?

More derbies would boost interest and crowd numbers. Especially in Wales and Scotland I think.
Less foreign travel would cut costs a bit.
No automatic qualification for the HEC would mean less dead rubber games.

I like the idea, but scotland can't get enough people to fill a double decker bus to show up to most games as it is. It doesn't really indicate that it could sustain 2 more clubs. Similar problem for Italy.
I do like the idea of having divisions in the league

Well I do think Italy could field two more teams in the not to distant future. Scotland simply doesn't have the funds at the moment, but maybe when Murrayfield is paid off that might change? The 6 Nations is the main financial driver of the European game, and surely Scotland get the same amount of cash as Ireland and Wales from that?

Right now it's only realistic to propose three conferences; Irish, Welsh and Scots-Italian.

How does this change from the current system of qualifying for the Heineken though?

rawa it doesn't for the Irish or Welsh. It's just that the addition of two Scot and two Italian teams will mean the teams in those two nations will no longer get automatic HEC qualification.

If you want to separate us all out then how about we all return to being in our own national top flight leagues, and the welsh, irish, scottish and italian side face each other in a knock out competition at the end?

Personally I think this seems like a bit of a weird backwards step.

I have to say I don't like leagues where everybody doesn't play everyone an equal number of times, it creates imbalances and unfairness.

Take this example for the Scottish group both Boarders and Reds would be weak teams, meaning Glasgow and Edinburgh should pick up 30-36 point from these two,
they get to play them 3 times everyone else gets to play them only once, giving Glasgow and Edi 10-12 points more easliy than other teams could get them.

Scotland won't be in a position for nother team for years, Italy is the only place that expansion lies.

I also don't like the way teh super 15 is set up as well

I would like the League to increase in teams providing it makes commercial sense.

I wouldnt split the league up though and instead be tempted to play just one leg against each side. So for example Leinster would have Ospreys at home one season but then away the next.

What would be interesting is that in order to make the top 4 sides would then really have to target key away matches which could make it a better spectacle.

Super 15 works because the Conferences are, roughly, of a similar standard.

This wouldn't because it is perfectly feasible that the 3 best teams are all in the same, Irish, division.

Why would we agree to one of our teams being denied a play off spot when 5, maybe all 6, of the other QF's are inferior teams ?

geoff998rugby wrote:Super 15 works because the Conferences are, roughly, of a similar standard.

This wouldn't because it is perfectly feasible that the 3 best teams are all in the same, Irish, division.

Why would we agree to one of our teams being denied a play off spot when 5, maybe all 6, of the other QF's are inferior teams ?

Fair point geoff. But it's not as if the Heineken Cup is perfectly balanced, where the best teams always make the quarter finals is it?

I was just trying to think of a way to increase the Italian and Scottish teams without clogging the schedule with more games. I also thought it might be a good idea to increase national derbies. It would help the attendance issue.

If Italy could increase to 4 teams that would be ideal due to the Population and commercial oppertunities there. That said Italy are having big ecenomic problems so maybe this wont be on the cards.

I dont think Scotland will ever have more than 2 teams.

But I would love to see a truely Inter Global League. Maybe a couple of Sides from Romania, Spain & Georgia. You could also add Russia.

That said you would have to phase them in and without their status within IRB rankings going up (ie increased funding), this would be a non starter to begin with.

But there is no doubt this would benefit growing the sport.

I don't really want anymore teams added because the more you split the Scottish and Italian teams up the more you dilute the talent of their teams, and frankly Scottish and Italian teams are lucky to finish in the top half of the table as it is.

To be brutal, but honest I'd be more in favour of cutting the Italians and Scottish loose and just having a Welsh / Irish league.

Then having a joint Semi-Pro club premiership below it, with each region / province having 2 development teams.

Magners League:
1 Ulster
2 Munster
3 Leinster
4 Connacht
5 Blues
6 Scarlets
7 Dragons
8 Ospreys

Irish / Welsh Premiership
1 Lansdowne
2 Dolphin
3 Shannon
4 Blackrock
5 Buccaneers
6 Dungannon
7 Galweigans
8 Ballymena
9 Llanelli
10 RGC 1404
11 Cardiff
12 Pontypridd
13 Newport
14 Cross Keys
15 Swansea
16 Bridgend

2 club teams to be affiliated to each region / province to develop players.
I'm not so great on selecting 2 teams from each Irish province, I had to guess or go off memory.

Personally I think that would really help Irish and Welsh rugby be very strong.

Main problem is though that the majority of the Irish club sides are amateur. The Welsh prem sides are at least mostly semi-pro

Cut the Scots and Italians loose? Eh, no.

Cuting the Italians lose would be madness - that is the potential for the biggest growth of the lot

I like a lot of your suggestion Feckless. In Wales the derbies would definitely increase interest and attendances in the short term. My only worry is that the teams/fans would get bored of playing each other so often, but it doesn't seem to affect things in Glasgow in football too much and they play something like 4 times don't they???

There definitely needs to be an element of travel for ALL teams, as opposed to just the winners of the 'conference' going to play the winners of another in a semi, so I like the playing 6 away games thing. One of the reasons I feel that internationally Ireland, Wales, Italy and Scotland have done better in recent years (I'm not saying we're world beater mind!) is because their top players are used to the travel. They play abroad every other week pretty much and I think this has a positive effect on a players ability to go away internationally and tough it out (although the exception to the rule is my team the Dragons who have the most appaling away record!).

Although some are saying that 2 new Scottish teams would be weak, which initially they would, just looking at the Italian teams in the Pro 12, especially Treviso, and look what a bit of regualr competition can do for you. 2 new scottish teams would be up to pace in a couple of years I reckon. Funding them is another matter though...

There's also a whole load of Scottish players playing abroad isn't there?

We shouldn't cut anyone loose. There was a time (not very long ago) when Ireland were worse than Scotland and Italy. Should we have been cut loose from competition back then?

Personally I'd promote the Welsh / Irish competition as much as possible, Since we have merged into 1 league the success of both nations has sky rocketed.

IF Wales win a Grand slam this year it would mean 4 Grand Slams, between Wales and Ireland in 8 years, and seven triple crowns between us in 9 seasons. Throw in the Heinaken Cup wins by Irish teams, and you can clearly see that the Welsh / Irish rivalry is strengthening our rugby.

I'd rather reduce the size of the Magners so that we don't have to play with reserve teams at all and just have the best of our 2 Nations knocking 7 bells out of each other. Failing that play each other 4 times not 2, so we have more local derbies to generate interest.

Wales and Ireland are nearly equal, and the competition seems to be bringing the best out of us.

From a purely business sense, the Pro12 cutting off the Italians would be madness. Madness.

Home Derbies (*shivers!!* hate that name for some reason) are all very well.... but they'd become potentially very boring affairs quite quickly, I think. Well, for me they would anyway. It's the International aspect of our particular League that appeals to me. One week your side is up in Belfast, the next week it's Cardiff, the next it's homes, the next it might be Viadana.

It's a more epic league than the other two, it's starting to show real fangs - just look at the fight Aironi put up last night. More derbies might attract, or attract back, an audience, but it might lose one too. We make each other better by playing each other frequently. The learning arc is bigger - knowledge is power and I think Pro12 is heading quickly for 2nd most important league in Europe behind Top14...if not even challenging for top in the next six or seven years.

Well not if the Welsh sides are fielding u12 sides next year which it looks like

gowales wrote:Well not if the Welsh sides are fielding u12 sides next year which it looks like

Am I allowed say that might be a tad overspun?

ok u20

How many Welsh players have really left? I hear so many names. But actually has anyone totted up the number of players in each Region's squad and the number of players in total that have are about to fly the coop?

It'd just be an interesting exercise for someone who might more readily know the numbers.

To be honest not that many have left this year. But if you were to add up all the players from the last 2/3 years that have, then there are quite a lot.

The main thing that worries me is most of the regions now have to rebuild their squads because older welsh players and key foreign players have left. Plus the crap rugby that the Ospreys, Blues and Dragons are playing

The way forward for Scotland is to bring back the Borders team but make sure their games don't clash with other senior games in the region so if they play on a saturday all other games would be on Sunday and Friday.
Glasgow and Edinburgh are now good business prospects with quality players they could easily sell fifty percent of each and invest their money into a Borders team but let the locals run it. See how that goes and start a Connacht like team in the north using the same financial model, for a long time bringing through players has been the problem but with three full teams and one development that would change. Italy could sustain another couple probably and if we can keep the top italian, Scottish and welsh players in the league then it would become fantastic as for the four small groups idea I don't think that would work. What about a two tiered system with 8 in each and each team playing three times against each other and a cup competition including both tiers and four English teams?
We could possibly include a Russian side, a Romanian side, a georgian side and an Iberian but this might not work logistically with travel etc.

That would leave:

Tier 1:
Munster
Ulster
Leinster
Llanelli
Ospreys
Blues
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Borders
Treviso

Tier 2:

Aironi
Connacht
Caledonia
Dragons
Italian side 3
Italian side 4
Georgian team
Russian team
Iberian team
Romanian team

I don't think any of this is realistic at all. It would be completely foolish for Scotland to overextend itself by trying to support a third pro side before it's completely ready. The current Welsh regional 'crisis' is due to something similar; overextending in terms of investment in playing facilities.

Secondly, a second tier would doom those sides playing in it to oblivion. Just not going to get a TV deal or fans through the turnstiles to watch second rate teams. Financial knock-on means player drain, and then you get into the vicious circle of losing players, losing games, losing players...

Thirdly, it wouldn't be the Italian sides I'd want to relegate to any second division. They are growing in terms of attendance, attractiveness to sponsors, TV deals- the Scottish teams are pretty much stagnant and the Welsh teams are regressing alarmingly. Just look at some of the attendances at the Liberty for instance. Both are still ahead of the Italian sides on and off the pitch, but the Italian sides are sleeping giants. Their continued improvement (and the continued growth of rugby in Italy) could really help make the league a lot more profitable than it is now. I just don't see the same potential for growth anywhere else. The Italian sides need to be persevered with.

No, if any change to the format comes due to the leagues expansion it will almost certainly be a transition to a conference system.

123456789 wrote:

That would leave:

Tier 1:
Munster
Ulster
Leinster
Llanelli
Ospreys
Blues
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Borders
Treviso

Tier 2:

Aironi
Connacht
Caledonia
Dragons
Italian side 3
Italian side 4
Georgian team
Russian team
Iberian team
Romanian team

Newport GD lumped in with that lot in a Poopie tier 2?
Sorry, but it wasn't that long ago when Newport were an excellent side.
Many on here seem to forget that.
Regionalism has destroyed them and Welsh rugby is worse for it.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

123456789 wrote:

That would leave:

Tier 1:
Munster
Ulster
Leinster
Llanelli
Ospreys
Blues
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Borders
Treviso

Tier 2:

Aironi
Connacht
Caledonia
Dragons
Italian side 3
Italian side 4
Georgian team
Russian team
Iberian team
Romanian team

Newport GD lumped in with that lot in a Poopie tier 2?
Sorry, but it wasn't that long ago when Newport were an excellent side.
Many on here seem to forget that.
Regionalism has destroyed them and Welsh rugby is worse for it.

It's only a 606 thought. It wasn't given a green light by the Pro12 organisers.

There would be promotion and relegation, the top division would be of a high standard and so would get bigger deals with SKY or ESPN. The second division could be covered by the existing channels. The standard would improve because every game would matter and real rivalries would occur.

As for Scotland overextending with a third team, we could easily fill a third with players playing outside of Scotland

15. Southwell
14. Walker
13. Grove
12. Lamont
11 Danielli
10. Shingler/parks
9. Lawson
8. Vernon
7. Hogg
6. White
5. Hamilton
4. Swinson
3. Murray
2. Lawson
1. Shiells

And another made of reserves from original two and players abroad:

15. Thompson
14. Evans
13. Ansbro
12. King
11. Sep Visser
10. Alex Blair
9. Pyrgos
8. Taylor
7. MacDonald
6. Macinally
5. Ryder
4. Hines
3. Kalman
2. Hall
1. Dickinson


Not exactly world beaters but they could do a job and that's without including Scottish prem players and foreign imports.

I don't care about what players are there, totally irrelevant. Players come and go. They'll come if they can be offered competitive salaries and a competitive side to play in, they'll go if they can't. Very quickly the issue over players becomes not what Scottish players are out there but can you afford to pay them and are you good enough off the bat to attract them?

Really the only thing that matters when setting up a new region/province/franchise is if it's viable from a business PoV. Will they attract fans? Can the two existing teams survive the necessary cuts in their budget needed to fund a new team? Will they be able to develop significant enough revenue streams through sponsorship, merchandising etc. to repay the initial investment required by the SRU?

Right now, it's not financially viable I suspect. I suspect that the two Scottish pro teams are heavily subsidised by the SRU- already budgets are very tight, tight enough that they can't afford the depth to compete on two fronts in many cases and we've seen a similar 'exodus' to the Welsh sides, with English and French clubs outbidding the Scots for some very good players.

Before a new pro side could be considered, Glasgow and Edinburgh would need to be more self-sutaining and profitable is my opinion. Only then could the SRU afford to divert funds away from them towards a new side without flirting with calamity for the Pro game in Scotland.

Well it might be possible to create a second division on the Rabo Direct with NO promotion or relegation. While using the second teams / academy sides of the provinces, clubs, regions.

1) Pontypridd Blues
2) Bridgend Ospreys
3) Cross Keys Dragons
4) Carmarthen Scarlets
5) Rugbi Gogledd Cymru

6) Scottish Borders
7) Aberdeen
8) Stirling County
9) Perth (McDiarmid Park)

10) Ulster Ravens
11) Leinster A
12) Munster A

What is the obsession with sides run by the governing body in Celtic countries surely there is enough support for rugby in Wales that you could run six district sides with closer links to their area, if the SRU sold the Warriors and Edinburgh and then created two more clubs as well as backing London Scottish. Aren't the Irish provinces pretty fixed so there isn't much room for growth there?
Italy has huge potential they could have at least two more clubs, rugby is a quickly growing sport in eastern Europe so sides from there could come over and play in the second division to start off with. e.g one from Romania, one from Georgia and one from Russia meaning

Wales - Blues, Ospreys, Scarlets, Dragons, Celtic Warriors, one more side
Scotland - Warriors, Edinburgh, Borders, Aberdeen, London Scottish
Ireland - Ulster, Munster, Connacht, Leinster
Eastern Europe - sides from Romania, Russia and Georgia
one more possibly Welsh or Irish

The positives-
More pressure on teams so bigger rivalries and less of teams resting players
More Celtic players exposed to the higher levels earlier therefore the u20 sides could compete with England's
Players in the Welsh, Irish and Scottish club system are more likely to be spotted
Rugby would grow in Eastern Europe, more likely a Roman Abromovich figure will come to rugby
A big TV deal would come to the top division and it would definitely be the top division in Europe and the second division could be covered by the channels already showing the league
The negatives-
Not necessarily financially viable
Logistically the travel might not be possible and the climate in Russia might not fit our season so artificial pitches
It might further dilute the strength of the Celtic sides
It is possible countries might end up with no teams in the top division which would be calamitous
It would destroy the idea of a celtic league

1. Scotland can only afford two sides, and as Edinburgh have so beautifully demonstrated recently, we do not have the depth currently at the two sides we already have to mount any serious sustained challenge on a league.

2. Irish and Welsh fans should not desire to dump the Scots and Italians out of the league. Not sure on what basis that would be a good idea. From a business perspective it's nonsense (Italian support is swelling and Scottish support is up this season as well), and from a rugby perspective I don't see what Glasgow and Treviso in particular have done wrong this season, other than compete strongly against allcomers.

3. Why change the format? Personally I think the format works. The Scottish and Italian sides are improving, and as noted above, the format has delivered very strong performances from the Irish sides, and produced the best Welsh XV since the early 80s.

But surely the depth will come when a third (and eventually fourth side) comes because we could bring in more foreigners and the u20 players would gain more exposure thus making them able to play for Scotland quicker and covering when others are away.

I'm sure there is enough support in the Borders for a private franchise run by the local people, then the players from the borders could be picked rather than the SRU randomly allocating people.

Why can't Edinburgh or Glasgow be sold or 50% of each (the SRU could keep an eye on them)?
Therefore money would be there for another club a few years later, the SRU could test (and build up) support for a club in the north by playing one or two Edinburgh and Glasgow games there and Scotland games against Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Romania, Georgia etc. (not the A side, Scotland's full side with the top players).

A downside would be the dilution of the clubs squad but that would come as the level of rugby increased in Scotland. Why couldn't the SRU offer financial rewards for schools making rugby their main sport?