What is the state of English rugby at present?

I'm not WUMing, far from it, and for once a poor debate by HERSH has proved usefull.

From an outsiders POV, the AP is a good league, although some games can be and are regularly Dyer affairs, there are just as many spectaculars!

The recent Sarries - Tigers game was a good one, dramatic and passionate if not the most skillfull, but understandable at the minute.

I do worry though the reigning champs are a very South African dominated outfit, and of those chasing the better teams are importing and coercing players such as Donald. The only team that regularly brings through English talent and invests significantly is Leicester, what happens if they decide this doesn't bring enough benefits, and it'd just pay to sign another Tuilagi brother?

I only want to consider the prem as a feeder league to the English national side so please no England - Wales arguments.

I only want to discuss the way English teams seem to be going, in order to keep up in the HC, and wether it's maybe this nature is detracting from the national team.

very good state look at our u20 u18 teams sides like Gloucester, harlequins,london irish producing good young talent.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm not WUMing, far from it, and for once a poor debate by HERSH has proved usefull.

From an outsiders POV, the AP is a good league, although some games can be and are regularly Dyer affairs, there are just as many spectaculars!

The recent Sarries - Tigers game was a good one, dramatic and passionate if not the most skillfull, but understandable at the minute.

I do worry though the reigning champs are a very South African dominated outfit, and of those chasing the better teams are importing and coercing players such as Donald. The only team that regularly brings through English talent and invests significantly is Leicester, what happens if they decide this doesn't bring enough benefits, and it'd just pay to sign another Tuilagi brother?

I only want to consider the prem as a feeder league to the English national side so please no England - Wales arguments.

I only want to discuss the way English teams seem to be going, in order to keep up in the HC, and wether it's maybe this nature is detracting from the national team.

Far more dyer affairs in the Pro 12

English talent is obviously diluted through 12 teams as opposed to 4, but judging by the talent in depth throughout the EPS and Saxons squad, I'd sy the game is extremely healthy at the moment and mixing with imports is clearly benefiting skill levels. Having the right coaching set up in place is key and I'm sure that the RFU will govern the process with their normal competence.

in my view irish rugby is in state when there old guards retire they are stuffed there u20 team no good.

WOW!

Even when I'm trying to start a proper conversation you guys really will bitch and moan.

I never said there weren't dier games in the Pro 12!

Englands U20's are always strong, yet they fail to translate that to national success in recent years. The U20's are designed with a view to win, whereas most other countries use it as a way to develop.

And with all the talent and depth throughout the EPS, how come the nation of 4 lowly regions came and beat you in your own back yard.
OK that was a bit harsh, but I hope your getting my point guys, why are EPS clubs struggling come HC time? why do they want their wage budgets to get bigger so they can sign more big foreign names? And most importantly why does everyone (not just English) get so defencive when a bad word (with an element of truth in it) get said about their beloved team?

England pushed Wales, who finished 4th at the WC,close so things are not too tragic.They have a vastly improved Manager who has their players going in the right direction both on and off the pitch.They have some promising youngsters which hopefully will lead to the selection of more English fellas in the national side.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:English talent is obviously diluted through 12 teams as opposed to 4, but judging by the talent in depth throughout the EPS and Saxons squad, I'd sy the game is extremely healthy at the moment and mixing with imports is clearly benefiting skill levels. Having the right coaching set up in place is key and I'm sure that the RFU will govern the process with their normal competence.

If your game is so healthy, how come you have only scored two tries from three games? The worst parts are that they weren't created (chargedowns) and you have already played Scotland and Italy, teams that have a history of leaking tries. I think bluesman is on to something here.

England actually score tries. If you look at the 6N stats from the last few seasons you'll see that Wales are the ones with the problems. But still I'm happy you're so happy to have beaten a scatch England side and there's the difference, had an established England side narrowly beaten a green Wales team, England fans on the whole would be very concerned. When will you ever learn?????

Concerned in victory? Unlikely. Wales however are very pleased with the 3 victories but still looking for new ways to improve upon. Two tries from three games against said teams proves that England have problems with scoring tries. I don't think Wales have ever beaten an England side that was not a scratch, transitional, or 2nd string team to be honest. Thankfully this doesn't matter in the real rugby world .

Wasn't this question asked when only one English side qualified for the HC quarters? Now the national team have lost one game under caretaker staff, a raft of player debuts and the question is being asked again? The time to ask is if the successful U20 and U18 national players never make it through to the senior squad in the future.

Morgannwg wrote:Concerned in victory? Unlikely. Wales however are very pleased with the 3 victories but still looking for new ways to improve upon. Two tries from three games against said teams proves that England have problems with scoring tries. I don't think Wales have ever beaten an England side that was not a scratch, transitional, or 2nd string team to be honest. Thankfully this doesn't matter in the real rugby world .

Yeah we did in 99

I think the question can be asked now, especially after another performance from England that has highlighted their lack of attacking abilities.

I don't want this to become a Wleas England bickering thread, theres already one of those.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm not WUMing

When an article starts like this I think you know what it's going to be like. Especially when the OP has form in that area.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I think the question can be asked now, especially after another performance from England that has highlighted their lack of attacking abilities.

I don't want this to become a Wleas England bickering thread, theres already one of those.

TO be fair...i didnt see much of the much vaunted Welsh attack either...so should we ask...are they as good as people are claiming?

Englands club teams are doing ok...havent quite hit the heights in the HC as we have in the past...but i do think we will challenge again.

We have had a period of many teams playing Southern Hemipshere Journeymen..and this has hindered us to a degree...but now teams are really focusing on the academies...and the fruits are starting to come to bare...

Internationally we have a manager who most importantly....seems to be getting his selection policy right. Something Johno was widely criticised for. AND he has made the changes that were warranted at the right times...i.e bringing Morgan in, Tuilagi...keeping flood on the bench...starting Farrell at 10 (a big big call that worked) etc.

No England fan is deluded to think we are world beaters at present..and that our clubs are all conquering, and despite what many fans (which is irritating in itself) think the majority of England fans have long let go of 2003...but i think we are progressing nicely on all fronts...and have a right to be a little opptimistic...

Do you need to have great League players to have good International ones? One International side is disproving that theory at present.

SecretFly wrote:Do you need to have great League players to have good International ones? One International side is disproving that theory at present.

Is it Finland?

Englands U20's are always strong, yet they fail to translate that to
national success in recent years. The U20's are designed with a view to
win, whereas most other countries use it as a way to develop.

As far as I am aware this is a cliche that has little basis in fact. England have not always been strong at U20 level – only recently have we started to see real success. Whether we can translate that success into a dominant senior side remains to be seen, but certainly plenty of recent U20 players are getting game time and making waves in the AP.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Do you need to have great League players to have good International ones? One International side is disproving that theory at present.

Is it Finland?

Close...close...same continent.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm not WUMing, far from it, and for once a poor debate by HERSH has proved usefull.

From an outsiders POV, the AP is a good league, although some games can be and are regularly Dyer affairs, there are just as many spectaculars!

The recent Sarries - Tigers game was a good one, dramatic and passionate if not the most skillfull, but understandable at the minute.

I do worry though the reigning champs are a very South African dominated outfit, and of those chasing the better teams are importing and coercing players such as Donald. The only team that regularly brings through English talent and invests significantly is Leicester, what happens if they decide this doesn't bring enough benefits, and it'd just pay to sign another Tuilagi brother?

I only want to consider the prem as a feeder league to the English national side so please no England - Wales arguments.

I only want to discuss the way English teams seem to be going, in order to keep up in the HC, and wether it's maybe this nature is detracting from the national team.

I feel this is unfair on the Premiership leaders, Quins, who are admittedly a work in progress but have an almost entirely English (and young) squad of improving players who have been better than the sum of their parts, where possible have played the flowing and attacking rugby and attempted the breakdown approach that England have been lacking and have beaten some of the biggest clubs in Europe at the top level in the last few years. We are not there yet, but in our last match we played a 22 with an average age of 26 and 2 months (which would have been lower with what I would call our best side) and 18 English players (also would have been higher in my ideal team). Rightly or wrongly we are providing the England captain and several other players already in the EPS, all of whom have high quality competition for their places at club level. We can put out an all English back-row that can scrap with the best of them. We can actually put out an all English, highly touted back-row with an average age of 24. It is unfair to say it hasn't been regularly as these young players have been being build up from our academy for years, and though recently Leicester have had more players selected than us, players like JTH, Lowe, Brown and Robshaw have been mentioned for a while now as English talent, and we produced current English player Strettle and Monye managed to get into the starting Lions XV last tour

And that's without mentioning Gloucester, who produced JSD (ignored), Allen (criminally dropped then ignored), Forrester, Narraway, Lamb, Morgan, and now Sharples, May and Burns. Then Newcastle who produced Flood, Tait, Clegg etc. Or Irish. Or Wasps, who despite their current problems produced Cips, Haskell etc... to say that Leicester are the only side that regularly produce English talent is so ignorant

Ok this is how you spell dire. A dyer is related to colouring cloth.

English rugby is becomming more healthy as after a slightly barrern spell in terms of home production where the likes of Saints and Sarries invested heavilly in foreign players the majority of the league are now turning more towards English talent. Sarries are dismissing the Saffacens tag and can now name an entirely English team from their first team options. Quins are pretty much all English and a large portion of that is through the academy. Tigers are maintaining the balance of about two thirds English to one third import and Saints have offloaded their pricy imports and promoted English players instead.

This has meant that the England set up has a gulf in talent in certain areas, for instance hooker, where there is no real player peaking or maybe only one or two experienced options. However, this is offset by a raft of very promising players coming through all over the park. If these young assets are carefully utilised and built up in a couple of years England could once again have real class across their squad as there isn't a single position where England don't have two promising players coming through.

This has meant that the England set up has a gulf in talent in certain areas, for instance hooker, where there is no real player peaking or maybe only one or two experienced options. However, this is offset by a raft of very promising players coming through all over the park. If these young assets are carefully utilised and built up in a couple of years England could once again have real class across their squad as there isn't a single position where England don't have two promising players coming through.

adambarney wrote:in my view irish rugby is in state when there old guards retire they are stuffed there u20 team no good.

I love the way you write, Adam. Reading you is like reading a telegram.

England have always been dominant at U20 level...but it's only been around since 2008. Before that we lost about as many games in U21 6 nations as we did in the proper six nations. Were we dominant in the 6 nations between 2004 and 2007? Don't think so.

The numbers of foreign players in the premiership is reducing. Before it starting reducing in the last couple of years it had been pretty constant (funnily the big names coming in make more noise than those leaving). That the numbers are increasing is generally an assumption made by people too lazy to actually do the days of research required (or read the Mail).

Hammer,

I think the challenge for the clubs, like with the Regions is to make sure these young players now get contracts/gametime with the Pro sides.

In the past a lot have been lost due to over the hill overpaid foreigners playing here in Wales and England.

I can't really think of any young English players who should be getting game time but aren't due to over the hill overpaid foreigners. A lot get dual registered at a championship side and are therefore off with them getting regular games. If they have to up their game, surely that's a good thing? It was the making of Cole and he became an international tighthead at 21 or 22. Not bad going.

Our biggest problem now isn't johnny foreigner, it's older English players. The ones who've dedicated the last 10 years to their club with no international recognition. Then it's the other young English players from the last 4 years of successful U20 you are clogging up starting positions.

bedfordwelsh wrote:In the past a lot have been lost due to over the hill overpaid foreigners playing here in Wales and England.

I'm not sure that true with regards England. Who are these talents lost over the last decade, say?

It's certainly not true now. A huge portion of the u20 side is starting regularly for their club sides. This has never been the case before.

There isn't much wrong with English rugby at-all. I predict in two years time the England senior side will be in very good shape.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
I do worry though the reigning champs are a very South African dominated outfit, and of those chasing the better teams are importing and coercing players such as Donald. The only team that regularly brings through English talent and invests significantly is Leicester, what happens if they decide this doesn't bring enough benefits, and it'd just pay to sign another Tuilagi brother?

Saracens have many more EQ players than they are given credit for, and I'd say that it's demonstrably not the case that Leicester are the only team bringing investing in bringing through young English talent. Just look at Quins, Saracens, Irish, Northampton, Gloucester and even some of the less successful team like Newcastle, who have an incredible number of ex-players doing well for other teams at the moment. Conor O'Shea can't stop talking about Quins' commitment to build a home grown squad, and his hopes for them to get international honours. Also, the weekend was our youngest ever 6 Nations team, and they came very close to a result against the best side in the Northern Hemisphere right now. Our u20 dominance is still a recent enough phenomenon that it could very well start producing results in the next world cup cycle. Bath are in 9th so the Donald comment doesn't hold up. Bit of a weird use of the word 'coercing' as well.

If you're going to claim that you're not being a wum, I'd avoid posting obviously false and provocative comments about a rival team.

thomh wrote:
If you're going to claim that you're not being a wum, I'd avoid posting obviously false and provocative comments about a rival team.

Completely agree.

There have never been as many talented young English players coming through, for instance there are 6 credible FH options at u20 level this year - Ford, Heathcote, Mills, Bell, Slade, Hodgson (7 if you include Robinson at Wasps), with only Slade relatively short of first team rugby due to injury. The senior side's 20 year old FH, who outplayed his much-hyped opposite number at the weekend, couldn't even nail down the FH shirt at u20 level last season. Also the clubs have never been keener to give them a chance. Even Sale, which is relatively reliant on non-EQed players, has had their MD say this is reliance a problem and that it will be fixed.

The England national side has never been younger and the u20 side never more dominant. I'd say there is the most cause for optimism for a decade.

Sooooooo, this thread is about proving that you watch the ITV4 Jeff highlights then.

thomh wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:
I do worry though the reigning champs are a very South African dominated outfit, and of those chasing the better teams are importing and coercing players such as Donald. The only team that regularly brings through English talent and invests significantly is Leicester, what happens if they decide this doesn't bring enough benefits, and it'd just pay to sign another Tuilagi brother?

Saracens have many more EQ players than they are given credit for, and I'd say that it's demonstrably not the case that Leicester are the only team bringing investing in bringing through young English talent. Just look at Quins, Saracens, Irish, Northampton, Gloucester and even some of the less successful team like Newcastle, who have an incredible number of ex-players doing well for other teams at the moment. Conor O'Shea can't stop talking about Quins' commitment to build a home grown squad, and his hopes for them to get international honours. Also, the weekend was our youngest ever 6 Nations team, and they came very close to a result against the best side in the Northern Hemisphere right now. Our u20 dominance is still a recent enough phenomenon that it could very well start producing results in the next world cup cycle. Bath are in 9th so the Donald comment doesn't hold up. Bit of a weird use of the word 'coercing' as well.

If you're going to claim that you're not being a wum, I'd avoid posting obviously false and provocative comments about a rival team.

Youre strecthing it a bit to say Irish are English heavy. Look at the make up of some of their recent sides. The economic reality of chasing a plyoff spot has hit them in that regard.

But across the Jeff, and mostly at the top clubs, the number of EQ players starting on a given weekend has gone up.

Bath are a bit of an oddity, and a worry to me. They are chasing a very dangerous model which so far has bought them humiliation. The business and marquee signings aside, they do have a pretty strong EQ contingent too. I do think they should focus back on the academy development rather than trying to buy success though.

The Tuilagi comment is typical ignorance from Bluesman. Theres a huge contingent of them living in and around Leicestershire now, not just the rugby playing brothers. Manu came over not because he was offered moneyy but because he wanted to be schooled here and had an ambition to play for Tigers. They didnt have to pay a thing for him since he came through the local schools and academy system. If anythingthe RFU should be paying Tigers ( and his family) for his development, but fortunatly we dont yet live in a slave economy. At some point there will be a next generation of Tuilagi kids come through, which is great really. Players with strong family ties to a club, thats what its all suppossed to be about isnt it? Matt Smith is the son of a former player and coach, fantastic.
Despite the best efforts of certain people on the board to move away form that a few years ago ( and why Back/Key didnt get the job) Tigers still have a lot of people in the club with strong long term and family ties to it. People who actually care about the club itself rather than just the team.

Couldnt really say that for the Welsh regions.

The idea that player numbers alone has been the reason for English rugbys struggles recently is clealry bunk anyway. The real problem lies in the underlying culture and the faliures of Rob Andrews lot to get in place a decent elite system that bring people on past their "promising 20 year old" stage. Im not as convinced as Sam is that the current crp of age group kids wont go the same way as the last few, but lets wait and see. Now we have a school teacher in charge rather than a frankenstein impersonater surely its England glory all the way ?

Peter...

Just out of curiosity. You obviosuly didnt like Johno, and Lancaster neither. Who would you like to see in charge...

Im not as convinced as Sam is that the current crp of age group kids wont go the same way as the last few, but lets wait and see.

I think the 1999 and 2003 world cups hurt is in that respect as the core players from those world cups were heros and hung onto starting shirts at their clubs longer than they should have done. The rate of squad evolution was very small with clubs able to build squads full of current internationals with only a small number of local players breaking through. The selection for the locals was also heavilly based around public school performance. The RFU have gone some way to changing that and now we're seeing a broader range of players coming through and with less foreign internationals and a large number of the '03 heros retiring after 2007 there is more space within the squads.

The non-movement of the salary cap has also influenced his by forcing clubs like Tigers to release players at the height of their earning capacity rather than retaining them for their entire careers. Young players are cheaper and so when finances are tough they are being backed over signing a more experienced option, this is further being helped by Japan and France signing up 90% of the big name foreign players. All in all more talented players are finding their way into age group and academy rugby and more are getting game time at AP Level. Whether this translates to international success we will see, but at least the coach will have a wide range of options to choose from.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Peter...

Just out of curiosity. You obviosuly didnt like Johno, and Lancaster neither. Who would you like to see in charge...

Me.

And i was a Johnson apologist.

If you have to assure people that you are not wumming then generally you are.

Other people have already said it but Saracens are less South African dominated than you would think.

Also in the last 3-4 years Saracens have contributed a healthy amount of numbers to the England U20s - Mercey and Cato - both at Saints now,Goode,George,Kruis,Wray,Ransom,Spencer,Saull,Ransom,Spencer,Spurling,Auterac,Farrell etc.


Only Farrell has stepped up to the EPS so far but Goode and Saull have been in the Saxons a fair few times.The others will get their chances as they get more experience.

I would have thought that english rugby is about where it has usually sat in rugby history. Good but not quite able to break into the top table regularly. Since I started watching rugby in the 70s it's been the SH 3 At the top with France and England there and about (yes I realize SA had a break for a while)

Also in the last 3-4 years Saracens have contributed a healthy amount of numbers to the England U20s - Mercey and Cato - both at Saints now,Goode,George,Kruis,Wray,

Ransom,Spencer,Saull,Ransom,Spencer

,Spurling,Auterac,Farrell etc.

Did you need to repeat the names to fill it out abit

Some of its just a case of reminding people that guys like Saull, Auterac and Kruis are infact English and not the supporting characters of a Star Trek movie.

If you have a chance watch 2 games from last weekend which obviously didn't involve the EPS squad.

Gloucester v Quins

L Irish v Saints

Magnificent games and superb advert for the AP & young English talent coming through.

Could the same be said about any games last weekend in the Pro12?

I doubt it.

The Pro12 lose players to 4 international teams for the 6 nations rather the an one (and the odd one here or there). The two games you mentioned were very enjoyable.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If you have a chance watch 2 games from last weekend which obviously didn't involve the EPS squad.

Gloucester v Quins

L Irish v Saints

Magnificent games and superb advert for the AP & young English talent coming through.

Could the same be said about any games last weekend in the Pro12?

I doubt it.

Exactly. Which is undoubtably the reason why Englands first choice 8 is from the Scalets, their second choice a 30 year old, and their 3rd choice a fat Kiwi.

Well lets look at this objectivly

Age Grade - Outstanding. They have had a good record in this department for quite a long time now and the key seems to be the transition period from Age Grade to senior level.

7's - Very Good. Still a very very good side at this level.

Club Game - 12 Team League probably leaves the amount of England talent a little thin on the ground. It does however have solid attendance and commercial viability so i would say its doing ok. It allows a better exposure to the younger players and the league with relegation does keep an edge (even if the relegation is not even a given). So I would say this is solid.

Internationl - Developing. At the moment I would say they are probably around 5 or 6 th in the World and given time they could rise again providing the development goes well.

RFU - well thats just a shambles. Run by a complete bunch of amateur. Its the only real area english rugby is really let down.

Overall - If they can sort the admin and management at the RFU out and get the right coaching setup I see no reason why England does not have the tools to be a top 3 side.

Welshmushroom wrote:RFU - well thats just a shambles. Run by a complete bunch of amateur.

Trust me, they are very well paid professionals.

Other than that point yeah far to objective an assement for me to turn into some petty England vs Wales whinging match.

I thought the RFU comment was the only one he got right

RubyGuby wrote:I thought the RFU comment was the only one he got right

Yeah i was thinking excatly the same....

Well the general meaning yes quite fair, its more the insuation ( by use of the word amateure) that they might be doing it for free and the love of it that I had to question!

Yeah of course Biscuit

Cheers Geordie

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Well the general meaning yes quite fair, its more the insuation ( by use of the word amateure) that they might be doing it for free and the love of it that I had to question!

And you would be right sir....