England's Youngster Coming Through

Definites

Joe Marler - Marler is currently in the England EPS, however I felt he should be included as he hasn't won a cap yet. Corbisiero's impressive form and Stevens versatility on the bench have kept Marler out of the starting squad, but Marler has the potential to be a world class player, impressive in the loose, not finished article in the scrum.

Jamie George - Smit and Britz both rate George extremely highly, and as both are world class hookers that must mean something. His set-piece in the lineout and scrum are impressive, he's got a strong work-rate in defence and is a powerful ball carrier. Big potential.

Matt Garvey - I don't think Garvey is getting as much praise as he deserves, he typify's the enforcer lock role. I was personally surprised of his exclusion from the EPS. He's really offers himself as a ball carrier and always breaks the gain line, he's strong at the breakdown and has a good work-rate.

Luke Wallace - A lot of pressure was piled on Wallace with his early season form outstanding, he is currently the only English openside who really fits the mould of a specialist 7. He's not the complete article, but he has a lot of potential, he has pace, power over the breakdown and real ball stealing ability. Under tutelage from Robshaw and Easter he is destined for international rugby, the case is about when.

Danny Ciprani - Proven goal kicker, strong tactical kicker, devastatingly quick and the ability to get the backline firing. He has always had the potential to be a world class fly half, his chums in Aus including O'Connor, Beale and Cooper all rate him extremely highly - it's about time he put off field controversies behind him, sorted out his defence and set the Super 15 alight for the Rebels.

Jonny May - Electrifying is one word to describe May. Using his pace and footwork he can create something out of nothing, he also does the basics well, I personally rate him more than Sharples and feel he has the spark of a world class player.

Jonathan Joseph - JJ is an elusive runner, and surprisingly solid in defence, the closest thing we've had to Guscott since he retired, Mike Catt certainly rates JJ as potentially better than Guscott. He's powerful, pacy and has good vision, with the ability to play at centre or wing. Could be the perfect foil, for a bruising inside centre.

Wildcards

Tom Homer - Top class goal kicker, very fast, although needs to develop his all round game if he wants to push for international honours.

Freddie Burns - Flair describes Freddie, extremely quick, with a strong kicking game and a good passing game, must work hard on his defence.

Billy Twelvetrees - Behind Turner-Hall in pecking order, but has a stronger all round game and if given game time should push hard for inclusion.

Miles Benjamin - Highly under-rated, powerful in defence and attack and joining a bigger English club to further his international ambitions.

Christian Wade - Proves size isn't everything, electrifying in attack with dazzling footwork, England's answer to Shane Williams?

Rob Miller - England have so many class full backs, Miller has been lethal for Sale this season, rapid with vision and try scoring ability. Pushing Saxons?

Ed Slater - One of the more positive aspects of Leicester's season, big tackler and ball carrier and will only get better with experience.

George Ford - Despite his small size, surprisingly physical, really impressed for Leicester at the weekend and billed to be a top player.

Carl Fearns - Unfortunate to have been injured for most of the season, his potential is undoubted and now back from injury will look to impress.

Matt Kvesic - Needs game time for Worcester at openside, very impressive in age grade internationals, will be pushing hard very soon.

Thoughts?

Cipriani did not impress on his opening game for the Rebels today! Still big questions over his defense. I would have Freddie Burns higher up the pecking order than Danny.

Rob Miller has had some great performances for Sale - really one to watch there.
JJ and Manu Tuilagi together in the middle would be devestatingly good.

I like the 2 young Quins wingers - Smith and Stegman.

Not a wildcard - But would love Steff Armitage to come back to England and bring his Toulon form with him.

Mark Wilson back rower (No.8 mostly) for the falcons....been explosive and a huge part of our "slight" improvement.

Not the first name on many peoples lips...but he is one to keep a cheeky eye on.

Im also a big fan of James Fitzpatrick our 12...but sadly i doubt he'll make the EPS..with Barritt etc there...

Elsewhere...

Jaime George, Tom Youngs and Tom Lindsay all hookers....

Robshaw for England

Thank you for getting this thread going. I tried and failed earlier in the week.

There is SO much for us England supporters to be excited about.

Get on with appointing Lancaster Permanent Head Coach and let's push forward!

Huzzar!

p.s

Now then what do we have by way of 9s behind messrs Dickson (doing a great job but can he hurt sides on the break and thereby keep oppo back rows honest? ) Youngs (woefully out of form) Care (ive forgotten how good he is due to disciplinary issue) and Simpson ( he must be rubbish in training!!)

??

Tri -
Nic Berry is the alternative no.9 at Wasps
Karl Dickson is the Quins no.9 - also in the Saxons (older brother of Lee)

Is it Harrison - the young no.9 at Tigers.
Paul Hodgeson at LI
Perry - Worces (thats a bit of a negative move though)

Ben Spencer is the young Sarries no.9

Some one tell me what is all the hype about Ben Spencer for?

I know he's young and he is a cool head but his service isnt THAT great.

Nor is his breaking ability.

Why mention Paul Hodgson? He is the past. Perry!?!?!?

Why not just go ahead and list Dewi £"!"£$"*& Morris!!!

Marland Yarde and Anthony Watson (Both London Irish) are worth keeping an eye on. Both are playing for England U20s this weekend. Not sure if its on TV though.

Kvesic looks to me like he will be a huge talent for England. Watch out for him.

Easy there Tri - I was listing the possibles available to us now, not a preference. You asked for the 'messrs behind Lee Dickson' - now you have them.
Perry - well he is there for the amusement factor.

Triangulation wrote:Robshaw for England

Thank you for getting this thread going. I tried and failed earlier in the week.

There is SO much for us England supporters to be excited about.

Get on with appointing Lancaster Permanent Head Coach and let's push forward!

Huzzar!

p.s

Now then what do we have by way of 9s behind messrs Dickson (doing a great job but can he hurt sides on the break and thereby keep oppo back rows honest? ) Youngs (woefully out of form) Care (ive forgotten how good he is due to disciplinary issue) and Simpson ( he must be rubbish in training!!)

??

We just need to give Care a shock collar that automatically blasts him when he's about to do something petulant, moronic or prattish (like getting us a penalty reversed) and he's sorted. Basic conditioning

Also, I didn't know him much until the past couple of Quins games but Chisholm looks like an ideal understudy to Browne and a potential future 15

Tom Youngs, former England under 20s inside centre in the boshing mold. Converted to hooker and now is built up enough for front row action, when he gets back from injury watch out for Tigers very dynamic and very physical front row option.

Tommy Bell the 10/15 at Leeds clearly has some talent as does Charlie Walker the wing/centre at Quins (I think that's his name) former Tigers academy player got poached and has serious wheels.

Sam Harrison the young scrummy at Tigers, similar style to Youngs (both converted 10s so creative and good footballing skills). Aggressive, gobby and sometimes stupidly fearless. Quick but doesn't have the line breaking abilities of Youngs and Simpson but a bullet pass. Not sure he'll go far internationally but is a very good young 9 and could be an exceptional club player and a Tigers staple for the next decade.

Tahir El Mahdi, note the name down and wait a year or two. Rapid winger with a step sharper than a razor blade.

Chequered - Chisholm does look sharp. But there are still many areas for him to improve on. Like a lot of the others already listed in this thread.
Definately one to watch though - that final try against Gloucest was a cracker, sharples and May struggled to keep up with him.

Watson is only 17 as well.

Kvesic has looked good but Worcester have had a lot of injuries in the backrow. Will he still get game time when they come back?

In terms of pure potential the best is possibly George Ford. It may well come to nothing but with Flood being with England he'll hopefully get plenty of game time at Tigers next season. That way we'll be able to tell.

Marler's scrum is much much better than given credit for. Quins' biggest weakness in the scrum have been tighthead and the locks behind Kohn and Robson (Vallejos seems surprisingly underpowered). I would have him on the bench in place of Stevens (who hasn't exactly been great in the scrum himself)

Spencer seems to be an unusual scrum half in that his primary ability is in passing the ball. I know I know. It's not seen as an important ability in scrum halves these days but I like the unusual. Certainly a good player but if De Kock is there next year with Wigglesworth how much time will he get?

Isn't James Fitzpatrick something like 27? Not really a youngster coming through (unless I'm getting mixed up).

I've been very impressed with Sam Harrison. Leicester have two very good and very young scrum halves in him and Youngs (and on top of that there's Mickey)

Triangulation...

If Youngs doesn't perform this weekend then I expect Simpson to overtake him onto the bench spot against France. Simpson may be a bit raw and lightweight, but you cannot doubt his commitment - his explosive pace could do real damage as an impact sub against the French...


Spencer of Saracens has looked more and more impressive with game time, whilst the young Chris Cook has impressed me for Bath when he has had game time.

propdavid_london wrote:Chequered - Chisholm does look sharp. But there are still many areas for him to improve on. Like a lot of the others already listed in this thread.
Definately one to watch though - that final try against Gloucest was a cracker, sharples and May struggled to keep up with him.

He's got O'Shea to work on him though, so I'm very hopeful

Isn't James Fitzpatrick something like 27? Not really a youngster coming through (unless I'm getting mixed up).

He's 24...so not a true youngster but only been playing premiership for 2 seasons...after coming through from Blaydon.

24 counts as young. At least it better do If not then I'm going towards old

What about Joe Launchbury? Is he in the Saxons?

What about Joe Launchbury? Is he in the Saxons?.

Elliot Daley and Tom Lindsay at Wasps as well. All three are very promising young players. Launchbury is going to be an England lock of that there is little doubt. Possibly partnering Kruis from Sarries who seems a good lineout option.

Speaking of Elliot's Jamie Elliot at Saints seems to be taking over from Ashton as the try scorer in chief in Northampton.

Burns is a better attacking FH than Cipriani. Cipriani has done very little to impress at Rebels the last year or so and it would be criminal if he got an England opportunity over Burns.

On top of the many other good names mentioned on this thread I'd add that Carl Fearns is a great dynamic, agressive 8 option that also covers the flanks, so is a cracking candidate to make his way into the squad via the bench.

Kvesic looks like a superb future 7 prospect and I'd be more than happy for Wallace to be tested out in the interim, but I agree with propdavid about Armitage, he's been in superb form in the Toulon games I've seen, and if the new England coach continues what Lancaster has said about selecting foreign based players, then Armitage has to be brought into the fold.

What do LI fans think of Lahiff? I've only seen him play a couple of times, but on those occasions he's been pretty damn good. Is that reflective of his consistent form?

ChequeredJersey wrote:We just need to give Care a shock collar that automatically blasts him when he's about to do something petulant, moronic or prattish (like getting us a penalty reversed) and he's sorted. Basic conditioning

I think it is illegal to shock someone continuously for 80 minutes.

Rory Clegg - Stuck behind probably second best 10 in world after DC in Nick Evans at Quins but attacking wise is one of the best 10's we have. Him and Twelvetrees are probably the best passers of a ball in the country!

watch out for cato he starting to get some form.

Amusing that the title of this thread uses youngster in the singular form.

How about this for a Saxons/midweek team?

Marler
George
PDJ
Garvey
Gaskall
Clark (not many young bruiser 6's out there?)
Wallace
Fearns (captain)
Spencer
Burns
Yard
Turner-Hall (any other young big 12's?)
Joseph
Wade
May

Mullan, Gray, Slater, Vunipola, Dickson, Ford, Daly

That team would be awesome to watch. Tonnes of power and physicality in the pack, good scrummaging front 5, lineout operators in Garvey and Gaskal, plenty of breakdown expertise in the backrow.

Then the backs have a 9 who does the basics well, a 10 who can work magic, a big bruiser 12 and a real flyer at 13, then a deadly back three.

Joe Launchberry & Sam Jones both 20 were outstanding for Wasps v London Irish today.

If we survive the drop we have some great young lads coming through!

yappysnap wrote:How about this for a Saxons/midweek team?

Marler
George
PDJ
Garvey
Gaskall
Clark
Wallace
Fearns (captain)
Spencer
Burns
Yard
Turner-Hall (any other young big 12's?)
Joseph
Wade
May

Mullan, Gray, Slater, Vunipola, Dickson, Ford, Twelvetrees

That team would be awesome to watch. Tonnes of power and physicality in the pack, good scrummaging front 5, lineout operators in Garvey and Gaskal, plenty of breakdown expertise in the backrow.

Then the backs have a 9 who does the basics well, a 10 who can work magic, a big bruiser 12 and a real flyer at 13, then a deadly back three.

Any room for Daly?

England do have some very talented players waiting in the wings dont they. Got the makings of a very good generation there.

Sorted now

Just struggled with 12's to complement a rapid 13 and powerful ball carrying 6's

eirebilly wrote:England do have some very talented players waiting in the wings dont they. Got the makings of a very good generation there.

Maybe we can finally carry across their age group form to the top flight comps. Seeing as there's now no more Churchil cup i guess we'll only play your Wolfhounds in the 6N's now though.

at 6, I've heard good things from my Leeds supporting friend about Walker. Any Leeds fans want to confirm?

king_carlos wrote:Rory Clegg - Stuck behind probably second best 10 in world after DC in Nick Evans at Quins but attacking wise is one of the best 10's we have. Him and Twelvetrees are probably the best passers of a ball in the country!

I think Ryan Lamb might argue about that.

Also if he maintains his form of last week Myler, cracking passes off both hands to set up three of Saints tries, good kicker as well.

yappysnap wrote:How about this for a Saxons/midweek team?

Marler
George
PDJ
Garvey
Gaskall
Clark (not many young bruiser 6's out there?)
Wallace
Fearns (captain)
Spencer
Burns
Yard
Turner-Hall (any other young big 12's?)
Joseph
Wade
May

Mullan, Gray, Slater, Vunipola, Dickson, Ford, Daly

That team would be awesome to watch. Tonnes of power and physicality in the pack, good scrummaging front 5, lineout operators in Garvey and Gaskal, plenty of breakdown expertise in the backrow.

Then the backs have a 9 who does the basics well, a 10 who can work magic, a big bruiser 12 and a real flyer at 13, then a deadly back three.

Nice team there! I would have Alex Gray for Fearns with him on the bench for Vunipola and Twelvetrees for JTH though.

Problem I see here though is that for the last 5-6 years since England started going a bit downhill we've seen these sort of discussion about all our talent (Cipriani,Tait,Varndell,JSD,etc etc) but it hasn't come to what we expected yet. I just hope that changes soon!

Didn't take 36 as I really wanted a big bosher at 12 and a folcrum for defence, Billy adds a different dimension in attack but in that backline there's no thrust without a JTH. Plus 36 and Ford/Burns could be too error prone.

Agree with you about the conveyor belt, we seem to have nearly lost a generation of exciting backs. I hope though the new agreements between club and country plus proper touring sides with space for more of these players in them will reduce the wastage of backs (in particular).

at 6, I've heard good things from my Leeds supporting friend about Walker. Any Leeds fans want to confirm?

Only 19 or so appearances but looking very good. Overall we have a very good set of youngsters and a strong academy.

Chris Walker is more of an openside specialist than a six isn't he? That's the way I've seen him anyway.

I know some have been mentioned, but the players I’ll be looking out for in the next season or two:

Carl Fearns: He’s a no.8 who has been picking up the foraging skills of an openside flanker which means he was becoming increasingly good at the breakdown before his injury. He’s good control at the base of the scrum and he’s got a very good at carrying game. I hope he gets the chance to go on summer tour with England.

The no.8 options are suddenly starting to look decent. Ben Morgan, Carl Fearns, Jordan Crane, Tom Guest and James Haskell all coming into contention in the next couple of years.

Joe Launchbury: It’s a big prediction, but I think he will definitely be an England regular within the next 2-3 years. He is the modern athletic type of lock who seems to be all over the pitch. BUT he also makes hard yards in the tight, the perfect combination IMO. The other thing to note is that he is only 20 and is already 6ft 6in and 18st 1lb, you could probably expect to see him put on at least another stone in the next year or so. The other mention at second row I would give is to Charlie Matthews. I wasn’t that impressed with him until last years JWC, but he came on brilliantly and is making good progression towards first team rugby with Quins.

As with no.8, after a bit of a dip in quality, there seems to be some very good players coming through Courtney Lawes. Matt Garvey, Dave Attwood, Joe Launchbury, Ed Slater. Not to mention players on the fringes like Tom Savage (Gloucester), Graham Kitchener (Leicester), Charlie Matthew (Harlequins) and George Kruis (Saracens). The only problem I see is that, there isn’t a really good lineout expert there.

Kieran Brookes & Henry Thomas both need to work on their scrummaging (they are only young 21 and 20 respectively) but are both very mobile and effective around the park. They are also both tightheads which should provide old man Cole with some good competition in the future.

Others to consider:

Tom Heathcote (Bath), Jamie Gibson (London Irish), Josh Ovens (Bath), Sam Jones (Wasps)

yappysnap wrote:How about this for a Saxons/midweek team?

Marler
George
PDJ
Garvey
Gaskall
Clark (not many young bruiser 6's out there?)
Wallace
Fearns (captain)
Spencer
Burns
Yard
Turner-Hall (any other young big 12's?)
Joseph
Wade
May

Mullan, Gray, Slater, Vunipola, Dickson, Ford, Daly
.

I'd have Matt Garvey and Jonny May in the main England 23.


01. Matt Mullan
02. Joe Gray/ Tom Lindsay
03. Paul Doran-Jones
04. Dave Attwood
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Carl Fearns
07. Luke Wallace
08. Tom Guest

09. Ben Spencer
10. Freddie Burns

11. Miles Benjamin
12. Billy Twelvetrees/ Anthony Allen
13. Henry Trinder
14. Christian Wade
15. Alex Goode

16. Jamie George
17. Joe Marler
18. David Wilson
19. Ed Slater
20. Andy Saull
21. Rob Miller
22. Jon Joseph
23. Paul Hodgson

jamie george i fear will be held back for years to come because of Brits and Smit. i therefore doubt if he will ever reach his potential. Other than that i wouldnt be suprised if the other 'definites' all get capped. Watch out for David sisi, London irish number 8, quality prospect.

Cumbrian wrote:

yappysnap wrote:How about this for a Saxons/midweek team?

Marler
George
PDJ
Garvey
Gaskall
Clark (not many young bruiser 6's out there?)
Wallace
Fearns (captain)
Spencer
Burns
Yard
Turner-Hall (any other young big 12's?)
Joseph
Wade
May

Mullan, Gray, Slater, Vunipola, Dickson, Ford, Daly
.

I'd have Matt Garvey and Jonny May in the main England 23.


01. Matt Mullan
02. Joe Gray/ Tom Lindsay
03. Paul Doran-Jones
04. Dave Attwood
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Carl Fearns
07. Luke Wallace
08. Tom Guest

09. Ben Spencer
10. Freddie Burns

11. Miles Benjamin
12. Billy Twelvetrees/ Anthony Allen
13. Henry Trinder
14. Christian Wade
15. Alex Goode

16. Jamie George
17. Joe Marler
18. David Wilson
19. Ed Slater
20. Andy Saull
21. Rob Miller
22. Jon Joseph
23. Paul Hodgson

Joe Launchberry played blindside yesterday and was outstanding - I think that will be his position for England in the future.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

yappysnap wrote:How about this for a Saxons/midweek team?

Marler
George
PDJ
Garvey
Gaskall
Clark (not many young bruiser 6's out there?)
Wallace
Fearns (captain)
Spencer
Burns
Yard
Turner-Hall (any other young big 12's?)
Joseph
Wade
May

Mullan, Gray, Slater, Vunipola, Dickson, Ford, Daly
.

I'd have Matt Garvey and Jonny May in the main England 23.


01. Matt Mullan
02. Joe Gray/ Tom Lindsay
03. Paul Doran-Jones
04. Dave Attwood
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Carl Fearns
07. Luke Wallace
08. Tom Guest

09. Ben Spencer
10. Freddie Burns

11. Miles Benjamin
12. Billy Twelvetrees/ Anthony Allen
13. Henry Trinder
14. Christian Wade
15. Alex Goode

16. Jamie George
17. Joe Marler
18. David Wilson
19. Ed Slater
20. Andy Saull
21. Rob Miller
22. Jon Joseph
23. Paul Hodgson

Joe Launchberry played blindside yesterday and was outstanding - I think that will be his position for England in the future.

Fair enough, but I disagree.

I think he will be like Lawes in that he will spend time in both the second row and backrow before settling in the second row position.

Yes you may be right Cumbrian.

I was looking at Yappys comment re no young bruiser 6s out there.
Well Joe certainly fitted that bill yesterday!

You're not wrong, just love his strength and athleticism.

Incidentally, I don't think there is a dearth of blindsides anyway. Once there is proper openside flanker is identified Robshaw will be able concentrate on being a blindside again and we'll have a number of fairly young blindsides.

Chris Robshaw (25)
James Haskell (26)
Tom Croft (26)
Tom Wood (25)

Cumbrian wrote:I know some have been mentioned, but the players I’ll be looking out for in the next season or two:

Carl Fearns: He’s a no.8 who has been picking up the foraging skills of an openside flanker which means he was becoming increasingly good at the breakdown before his injury. He’s good control at the base of the scrum and he’s got a very good at carrying game. I hope he gets the chance to go on summer tour with England.

The no.8 options are suddenly starting to look decent. Ben Morgan, Carl Fearns, Jordan Crane, Tom Guest and James Haskell all coming into contention in the next couple of years.

Joe Launchbury: It’s a big prediction, but I think he will definitely be an England regular within the next 2-3 years. He is the modern athletic type of lock who seems to be all over the pitch. BUT he also makes hard yards in the tight, the perfect combination IMO. The other thing to note is that he is only 20 and is already 6ft 6in and 18st 1lb, you could probably expect to see him put on at least another stone in the next year or so. The other mention at second row I would give is to Charlie Matthews. I wasn’t that impressed with him until last years JWC, but he came on brilliantly and is making good progression towards first team rugby with Quins.

As with no.8, after a bit of a dip in quality, there seems to be some very good players coming through Courtney Lawes. Matt Garvey, Dave Attwood, Joe Launchbury, Ed Slater. Not to mention players on the fringes like Tom Savage (Gloucester), Graham Kitchener (Leicester), Charlie Matthew (Harlequins) and George Kruis (Saracens). The only problem I see is that, there isn’t a really good lineout expert there.

Kieran Brookes & Henry Thomas both need to work on their scrummaging (they are only young 21 and 20 respectively) but are both very mobile and effective around the park. They are also both tightheads which should provide old man Cole with some good competition in the future.

Others to consider:

Tom Heathcote (Bath), Jamie Gibson (London Irish), Josh Ovens (Bath), Sam Jones (Wasps)

My crystal ball is working over time because the RFU have tweeted that Launchbury has been called up to cover for Courtney Lawes! Pleased for him, but I'm not sure where it leaves Wasps?!? Would have preffered to have seen Matt Garvey at this stage TBH.

Wow great news for Joe & just aswell it's the LV cup fixtures coming up.

He has been awesome since his return from injury

Yep congratulations in order for Launchbury!

From all acounts and all I've seen he's been very good since injury (and before!)

Good stock of young second rows coming through now;

Lawes
Launchbury
Garvey
Slater
Kitchener
Myall

All very young and the likes of Parling,Botha,Palmer,Deacon with them have got a few years yet!

Cumbrian wrote:You're not wrong, just love his strength and athleticism.

Incidentally, I don't think there is a dearth of blindsides anyway. Once there is proper openside flanker is identified Robshaw will be able concentrate on being a blindside again and we'll have a number of fairly young blindsides.

Chris Robshaw (25)
James Haskell (26)
Tom Croft (26)
Tom Wood (25)

This is a thing. England have no shortage of 6's hitting their prime years with at least a handfull of caps under their belts already. Theres no point in looking for moree new faces at 6.
England instead are concentrating their search for a proper 7, and working hard on guys like Saull and Kvesic.

The locks are still a concern. Theres been a lot of dead ends with guys like Kennedy tried and rejected and a lot of time invested in Blaze who had to retire. Lawes seems to have a hit a bot of a wall career wise and is now suffering the inevitable backlash from the fans. Parlings injuries have stalled his development but hes now at the front of the queue, which Botha seems to have jumped somehow.
England having so often gone back to Shaw over the past 4 years, along with guys like Borthwick Kay, Deacon and to some extent Palmer has meant theres a lack of guys in their mid twenties with international experience in the second row ready to become the senior players, but a huge list of players who may become the all round modern athletic lock Lawes and Palmer were suppossed to be.