England's Youngster Coming Through

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Definites

Joe Marler - Marler is currently in the England EPS, however I felt he should be included as he hasn't won a cap yet. Corbisiero's impressive form and Stevens versatility on the bench have kept Marler out of the starting squad, but Marler has the potential to be a world class player, impressive in the loose, not finished article in the scrum.

Jamie George - Smit and Britz both rate George extremely highly, and as both are world class hookers that must mean something. His set-piece in the lineout and scrum are impressive, he's got a strong work-rate in defence and is a powerful ball carrier. Big potential.

Matt Garvey - I don't think Garvey is getting as much praise as he deserves, he typify's the enforcer lock role. I was personally surprised of his exclusion from the EPS. He's really offers himself as a ball carrier and always breaks the gain line, he's strong at the breakdown and has a good work-rate.

Luke Wallace - A lot of pressure was piled on Wallace with his early season form outstanding, he is currently the only English openside who really fits the mould of a specialist 7. He's not the complete article, but he has a lot of potential, he has pace, power over the breakdown and real ball stealing ability. Under tutelage from Robshaw and Easter he is destined for international rugby, the case is about when.

Danny Ciprani - Proven goal kicker, strong tactical kicker, devastatingly quick and the ability to get the backline firing. He has always had the potential to be a world class fly half, his chums in Aus including O'Connor, Beale and Cooper all rate him extremely highly - it's about time he put off field controversies behind him, sorted out his defence and set the Super 15 alight for the Rebels.

Jonny May - Electrifying is one word to describe May. Using his pace and footwork he can create something out of nothing, he also does the basics well, I personally rate him more than Sharples and feel he has the spark of a world class player.

Jonathan Joseph - JJ is an elusive runner, and surprisingly solid in defence, the closest thing we've had to Guscott since he retired, Mike Catt certainly rates JJ as potentially better than Guscott. He's powerful, pacy and has good vision, with the ability to play at centre or wing. Could be the perfect foil, for a bruising inside centre.

Wildcards

Tom Homer - Top class goal kicker, very fast, although needs to develop his all round game if he wants to push for international honours.

Freddie Burns - Flair describes Freddie, extremely quick, with a strong kicking game and a good passing game, must work hard on his defence.

Billy Twelvetrees - Behind Turner-Hall in pecking order, but has a stronger all round game and if given game time should push hard for inclusion.

Miles Benjamin - Highly under-rated, powerful in defence and attack and joining a bigger English club to further his international ambitions.

Christian Wade - Proves size isn't everything, electrifying in attack with dazzling footwork, England's answer to Shane Williams?

Rob Miller - England have so many class full backs, Miller has been lethal for Sale this season, rapid with vision and try scoring ability. Pushing Saxons?

Ed Slater - One of the more positive aspects of Leicester's season, big tackler and ball carrier and will only get better with experience.

George Ford - Despite his small size, surprisingly physical, really impressed for Leicester at the weekend and billed to be a top player.

Carl Fearns - Unfortunate to have been injured for most of the season, his potential is undoubted and now back from injury will look to impress.

Matt Kvesic - Needs game time for Worcester at openside, very impressive in age grade internationals, will be pushing hard very soon.

Thoughts?

Adam wrote:I see what PSW's saying. Down the years (in the old 606) there have been loads of these threads. But whilst it's nice to talk about talent coming through, I do feel as if there's almost a culture of forgetting about talent as soon as it breaks into the England team. E.g Croft: a 26 year old bloke who's proven he can mix it with the very best.....now apparently written off. It blows my mind.

Not the best example there mind Adam...i think many England fans are split by him...talented but is he the type of player England need at 6.

I can be a big critic of his...but ill defend him that against Wales he was excellent...

Still think we need to find a Ferris or a Lydiate...a big mobile powerhouse...who arent probably that much slower than Croft....

On form Croft fits into an attacking orientated team a lot better than Ferris and Lydiate. Lydiate has become so key to Wales because they generally don't secure a lot of possession and their defence is based on the backrow making a lot of tackles (Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau are all selected for their tackling skills). Ferris is a very good bosher but has no vision so is excellent at crashing through but when there's space out wide he can tend to run sideways (see Tigers vs Ulster at Welford Rd).

Croft is a horses for courses player, if the set up is right he'll be as valuable to the team as a flanker can be but if like in the first two England games the game plan is indecisive and defence heavy he really isn't a good option. I think that is where the split arises. Consistent quality irrespective of the game plan or explosive quality but dependent heavilly on the nature of the game plan.

Fair enough Geordie - Croft wasn't the best example....he's an unorthodox 6 so does divide opinion (my personal opinion is that he is a world class athlete, but a challenge for coaches: either use him or drop him).

But, generally, it obviously gets harder to make an impact as the standard of rugby you play increases, and I think this drives a tendancy amongst fans to look at players making waves in the league and unfairly judge their international counterparts on this basis. Look at Dowson: a firm fan's favourite for the last couple of seasons.....some were apoplectic at his continued omission in favour of Easter last year. And yet he - to me anyway - is clearly a player who's game does not survive the transition to international rugby. Easter - for all his faults - has/had the physicality for it, but it was taken for granted by the majority of fans. International rugby is a different kettle of fish, and until these guys have been tested in the fires we won't know if they have what it takes.

Another thing that strikes me - particularly in relation to young players - is this notion of "he's that good now....imagine how good he will be??!!" It doesn't always work like that. In fact, it rarely works like that, to the extent that it's almost a pointless comment. Cynical though this is, for every 5 'prospects', you can probably expect one or two to fall to injury troubles, another one or two to loss of form or failure to develop and the one you're left with might just end up not being as good as you thought. If this weren't the case then England's uniformly strong showing at age group level throughout the professional era would have translated to stronger 1st XV performances.

...Sorry to put a downer on things - all this aside, there is indeed a huge amount of talent out there and I hope that some of it filters through to the top level.

Adam

Do you not think when we talk about the youngers player..academy players etc...everyone is hoping rather than expecting.

We dont expect everyone we talk about to make it.

For example i always push many of our Falcons youngsters...WIlson, Hodgson, Catterick, Robinson etc...but im not saying these are definately going to make it...just that if they fulfill the potential they have shown through the grades they couldbe useful indeed.

On a positive note Tom Youngs is on the bench for Tigers this weekend , good to have him back after a nasty back injury.

Heathcote vs Ford should provide some interesting talking points as to the potential wearer of the England 10 shirt in a few years time.

Yes, and I don't have a problem with it - I don't get to see too many Falcons games myself, so it's interesting to hear you talk about some of these lesser-known guys who are coming through.

...I'm just trying to explain why the 'next big thing' threads occassionally get on my jubblies a bit....although the ones that do tend to be the ones in relation to the England team, and the reason they do is because they often ignore just how big-a step up international rugby really is......I stand by my Easter/Dowson example.

I'm not having a pop.....starting to regret coming to the defence of that miserable seabiscuit...

formerly known as Sam wrote:On form Croft fits into an attacking orientated team a lot better than Ferris and Lydiate. Lydiate has become so key to Wales because they generally don't secure a lot of possession and their defence is based on the backrow making a lot of tackles (Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau are all selected for their tackling skills). Ferris is a very good bosher but has no vision so is excellent at crashing through but when there's space out wide he can tend to run sideways (see Tigers vs Ulster at Welford Rd).

Croft is a horses for courses player, if the set up is right he'll be as valuable to the team as a flanker can be but if like in the first two England games the game plan is indecisive and defence heavy he really isn't a good option. I think that is where the split arises. Consistent quality irrespective of the game plan or explosive quality but dependent heavilly on the nature of the game plan.

Can't agree with you at all on Ferris there. Ferris operates extremely well in an attacking based team, his vision is generally very good, as are his hands and he possesses a lovely offload. One bad example doesn't really undermine all of that. Lydiate on the other hand is a totally defensive based player. He isn't much of a ball carrier, but will tackle all day and play close to the contact.

Adam wrote:Yes, and I don't have a problem with it - I don't get to see too many Falcons games myself, so it's interesting to hear you talk about some of these lesser-known guys who are coming through.

...I'm just trying to explain why the 'next big thing' threads occassionally get on my jubblies a bit....although the ones that do tend to be the ones in relation to the England team, and the reason they do is because they often ignore just how big-a step up international rugby really is......I stand by my Easter/Dowson example.

I'm not having a pop.....starting to regret coming to the defence of that miserable seabiscuit...

Hes a dastardly cad that one...and will leave you to take the flack aswell

I understand what your saying...a 20yr is talked up and talked up, gets a start for England, then in no time...people are shouting for an 18yr old to replace him...is that the thing?

That's exactly it....you put it far better than me...

Com on Geordie at least its kept me too busy to make jokes about Newcastle

And yes to some extent that is what I was getting at. We keep going round this merry go round.


Mind I was banging on about Manu Tuilagi when he was 16 .....

Yeah it is a bit frustrating....but i think thats bred from having nearly 10 years of negative progress from the national team. Any good player and people are suddenylwishing them to be the saviour.

Maybe this is why im quietly happy with the current setup. Now i appreciate it could be better with Flood (selection issues again..but thats for another thread) etc...but they are putting blocks in place game by game.

Come on Geordie at least its kept me too busy to make jokes about Newcastle

Well yes your right Peter...but make the most of it...when we return to the PL....we will be a different proposition...

Can't agree with you at all on Ferris there. Ferris operates extremely well in an attacking based team

Last sentence of the last paragraph was used to describe Ferris and Lydiate in respect to Croft.

I know, and I still don't agree regarding Ferris.

"Consistent quality irrespective of the game plan"

Fair comment on Ferris, no?

I would say so, though he had a poor game against Wales. Didn't seem to want the ball.

I think he was involved as far as he could be. The weakness to the rush defence of Wales is in the outer channels. The backrow now guard the inside channels (a lesson learnt from the last 6N) and with an rush defence the wider you get the weaker the press. Ireland scored two tries in the wider areas, Ferris is a man for the hard work physical work in the tight. Unfortunatly for Ireland it was a game when they didn't need a 6, a 6/8 and an 8 making up the backrow. It was a game made for David Wallace.

He did well against Italy, though I was suprised he gave the pass to Bowe for the try as he would have made it over the line (3m out and Ferris vs covering backs?) and left a much easier kick for Sexton.

Tom Youngs looked pretty good against Bath.

Ford went well although he did seem to be copying Farrell... I was hoping for a bit more of the passing/string pulling game that he is so good at.

Adam wrote:If this weren't the case then England's uniformly strong showing at age group level throughout the professional era would have translated to stronger 1st XV performances.

This keeps cropping up, and it isn't true. Until the era which started in 2008 England were average at age-group level. The players coming through now are, on average, much better than their counterparts from 7 or 8 years ago. I wouldn't be at-all surprised to see the average age of the England side continue to fall over the next couple of years as more academy products secure places.

DaveM wrote:

Adam wrote:If this weren't the case then England's uniformly strong showing at age group level throughout the professional era would have translated to stronger 1st XV performances.

This keeps cropping up, and it isn't true. Until the era which started in 2008 England were average at age-group level. The players coming through now are, on average, much better than their counterparts from 7 or 8 years ago. I wouldn't be at-all surprised to see the average age of the England side continue to fall over the next couple of years as more academy products secure places.

I agree. It's a particular bugbear of mine and as you rightly point out, is a complete fallacy. Prior to 08 our age graders were comfortably average. Since then however, they have been second only to the baby blacks.

The great thing is far more are now experiencing regular AP rugby, some even HC and they really are beginning to look the business. I'm quietly confident that a good percentage of the future England team will be made from England age-grade players.

The regular watchers of English rugby are aware of this & it does bode very well for the not too distant future.
Plenty of talent in many positions except probably tight head?

12 looks a bit of a worry too, or at least the powerful ball carrying line straightening 12's to compliment all the fast dangerous 13's we'rre creating.

yappysnap wrote:12 looks a bit of a worry too, or at least the powerful ball carrying line straightening 12's to compliment all the fast dangerous 13's we'rre creating.

Someone like Billy Twelvetrees for example?

I thought Brad Barrit was the darling of the young run it through the middle centers anyway, or is he not young enough?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

yappysnap wrote:12 looks a bit of a worry too, or at least the powerful ball carrying line straightening 12's to compliment all the fast dangerous 13's we'rre creating.

Someone like Billy Twelvetrees for example?

I thought Brad Barrit was the darling of the young run it through the middle centers anyway, or is he not young enough?

This. With Barritt as the incumbent and 12T the challenger, i'm far more comfortable of our depth in the centres than...well at almost anytime previously.

Apparently JTH is alive still as well although it appears his bandwagon went of the rails the moment he got selected.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Apparently JTH is alive still as well although it appears his bandwagon went of the rails the moment he got selected.

I actually rate him, it's just that his recent form really doesn't warrant him being in the squad. Iirc he suffered a pretty bad injury last season and hasn't been as effective since. Hopefully that will change as he was a very good bosher/offloader.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The regular watchers of English rugby are aware of this & it does bode very well for the not too distant future. Plenty of talent in many positions except probably tight head?

Cumbrian wrote:Tight head is a worry, Dan Cole is far and away our best tight head at the moment, and we’ll be in trouble when / if he gets injured. He is solid in the scrum and is really becoming good at the breakdown.

The medium term backup options seem poor (Matt Stevens), mediocre (Davey Wilson) or unproven (Paul Doran-Jones/ Rupert Harden).

There are a number of lads worth keeping an eye on, but they are mostly very young and raw; Kieran Brookes (Leicester, 21), Henry Thomas (Sale, 20), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 21), Kane Palmer-Newport (Bath, 21), Shaun Knight (Gloucester, 22) and Kyle Sinkler (Harlequins, 19). Hopefully one or two of those will come good in the near-ish future.