can this Wales side break into the worlds top 4?

First topic message reminder :

How good is this Welsh side really? it will be interesting to see if this Welsh side can live up to its hype and put Italy to bed and then finally beat a top 4 nation when we play France as we havnt managed to beat a top 4 side for a while now despite looking capable of it, it all seems to go to waste as we fluff our chances against the worlds best, i can't wait to see what happens against Italy and i hope Wales don't hold back otherwise it could be close we must give 110% and play it as a final rather than a Sunday friendly, it would be amazing to see this Welsh side further improve on their performances against Italy and France and then we could look forward to trying to make history and beating the wallabies on their own patch.

Just hope the boys stay composed and seize their moments as it can be so easy to be too caught up in all the hype at the moment especially for such a young side. Interesting and exciting times, can't wait for it all to unfold!

Another devalued year

Cymroglan, post RWC years are always "devalued" to an extent, as players naturally push out retirement to cover a world cup and coaches naturally tend to select their most experienced campaigners for the RWC. Also coaches tend to move on this point naturally too, which causes some disruption as new systems and selections bed in.

Hence following the cup most nations (who had talented experienced players in the squad) will be rebuilding. Since the 6N follows so closely on the hells it affects NH teams moreso than SH teams. ..

In that regard both 2008 and 2012 have featured weaker sides in the 6N than other years. This has naturally caused a bit of an upset in the results, and some teams to move up and down the rankings in a slightly unrealistic way.

In fact, I often wonder if the 6N immediately following a RWC should be treated on equal par with the others, perhaps the team that wins the preceding year should keep the silverware and the tournament should be seen more as a hit out for the new squads and coaches.

The sides who are first and second in this years 6N are also the two sides who finished second and fourth in the recent WC.

miteyironpaw wrote:Cymroglan, post RWC years are always "devalued" to an extent, as players naturally push out retirement to cover a world cup and coaches naturally tend to select their most experienced campaigners for the RWC. Also coaches tend to move on this point naturally too, which causes some disruption as new systems and selections bed in.

Hence following the cup most nations (who had talented experienced players in the squad) will be rebuilding. Since the 6N follows so closely on the hells it affects NH teams moreso than SH teams. ..

In that regard both 2008 and 2012 have featured weaker sides in the 6N than other years. This has naturally caused a bit of an upset in the results, and some teams to move up and down the rankings in a slightly unrealistic way.

:yawn:
In the same way the 2011 6n may as well be striked off the record as most teams were experimenting for the world cup - Wales and France definitely were.

Cymroglan wrote:The sides who are first and second in this years 6N are also the two sides who finished second and fourth in the recent WC.

Mercury rose in Aires just a few days ago, and last time was in the world cup. That'll be why.

Yep, no idea what your point is.

slartibartfast wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:Cymroglan, post RWC years are always "devalued" to an extent, as players naturally push out retirement to cover a world cup and coaches naturally tend to select their most experienced campaigners for the RWC. Also coaches tend to move on this point naturally too, which causes some disruption as new systems and selections bed in.

Hence following the cup most nations (who had talented experienced players in the squad) will be rebuilding. Since the 6N follows so closely on the hells it affects NH teams moreso than SH teams. ..

In that regard both 2008 and 2012 have featured weaker sides in the 6N than other years. This has naturally caused a bit of an upset in the results, and some teams to move up and down the rankings in a slightly unrealistic way.

:yawn:
In the same way the 2011 6n may as well be striked off the record as most teams were experimenting for the world cup - Wales and France definitely were.

So are you saying that an apparent Welsh improvement this year can be explained by them "experimenting" prior to the world cup last year?

Fair enough - but then surely this "progress" you are claiming, is just an illusion?

Top 4?

It's simple really in the two recent competitions Wales and France are the leading European nations.
That could change by the end of this 6N but at the present time thats the state of play.

Ok, I've made my points so I'll move on before this becomes pointless circular bickering.

I think we can agree it will all come down to if you can deliver on all the promises the Welsh fans have been making.

Beat Australia and France and New Zealand and South Africa a couple of times each and you'll definitely be one of the best 5 teams in the world.

miteyironpaw wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:Cymroglan, post RWC years are always "devalued" to an extent, as players naturally push out retirement to cover a world cup and coaches naturally tend to select their most experienced campaigners for the RWC. Also coaches tend to move on this point naturally too, which causes some disruption as new systems and selections bed in.

Hence following the cup most nations (who had talented experienced players in the squad) will be rebuilding. Since the 6N follows so closely on the hells it affects NH teams moreso than SH teams. ..

In that regard both 2008 and 2012 have featured weaker sides in the 6N than other years. This has naturally caused a bit of an upset in the results, and some teams to move up and down the rankings in a slightly unrealistic way.

:yawn:
In the same way the 2011 6n may as well be striked off the record as most teams were experimenting for the world cup - Wales and France definitely were.

So are you saying that an apparent Welsh improvement this year can be explained by them "experimenting" prior to the world cup last year?

Fair enough - but then surely this "progress" you are claiming, is just an illusion?

That doesn't make sense.

If they were experimenting last year, what's that got to do with progress this year?

Are you just typing random thoughts?

You were saying the "progress" Wales were making was evidenced in their improved recent results. (FACTS, apparently, so I was told).

And another poster that Wales didn't take the competition seriously last year.

By induction than means any recent improvement from Wales might not be a real improvement but merely a reflection of taking the competition seriously.

So, then there's no basis for believing Wales have actually improved, in which case their chances of beating SH teams regularly enough to become a top ranked team are remote.

You see if the FACTS are called into question, then perhaps the entire argument you are making falls apart.

Jesus I hope Wales slide down the rankings any Welsh success will be the end of mitey
Honestly mate you are coming across as somebody that has a deep issue with anything Welsh.
We all enjoy banter but most of us know when to stop but you seem obsessed with Wales.
There are a few Welsh wums on here but at least they will change the subject now and again.

To be fair, this is yet another Wales "how great we are" thread. There's been a lot of them, and it seems that there is great resistance to any voice of reason who enters and tries to use logic.

But, Cymro, best of luck for the rest of the 6N, and with the tours this year. I will be shouting your boys on against any of the southern hemisphere teams.

I genuinely hope that this is a real return to form for Wales and not another false dawn.

As much as I'd like to:

Spoiler:

I now have to go off to bed. G'Night!

miteyironpaw wrote:To be fair, this is yet another Wales "how great we are" thread. There's been a lot of them, and it seems that there is great resistance to any voice of reason who enters and tries to use logic.

But, Cymro, best of luck for the rest of the 6N, and with the tours this year. I will be shouting your boys on against any of the southern hemisphere teams.

I genuinely hope that this is a real return to form for Wales and not another false dawn.

As much as I'd like to:

Spoiler:

I now have to go off to bed. G'Night!

Goodnight

One of the interesting things is the lack of support you see amongst 6N teams across the board. With the 3N we tend to praise eachothers efforts a little more.

Dont get me wrong- we have our moments- particularly during heated 3N matches and maybe here its only a few posters but it seems theres a real need to see countries fail.

The 6N is a tournament that gives these countries its strength when venturing south.

Id take it so far in saying it explains partly the failure of successive lions tours here where despite everyone decaring and firmly believing they tour as one the underlying ripples are still there chipping away at the team on tour in any number of small ways.

The lions should be far superior to any one of the home union teams but the results just dont reflect it.

Food for thought for next year?

Might be wrong but thats the way it looks. Not all posters reflect this admittedly but enough to suspect its real in some way.

Taylorman wrote:With the 3N we tend to praise eachothers efforts a little more.

I get the feeling there is mutual respect for one another down south, may just be my opinion, but it is the way I see it.

Often you will find opposing fans rubbishing their opposite teams, where as that rarely if ever happens between the three nations countries.

To be fair, the 3N followers seem to be a whole lot more magnanimous in victory and respecting of each other, they also all have legitimate achievements to be proud of. Two world cups each, for starters.

I'm sure it would kick off from time to time if you played year in year out against a team who's followers refused to admit they were ever beaten, and began declaring themselves defacto masters of the universe after they came fourth in the world cup, and declared every single player in the squad to be "world class/world best" at least twice a week on some thread, somewhere.

Mitey, i do it all the time, haven't you noticed?

The thing is Biltong, SA have had their fair share of problems under PDV. But as far as I can see, your fellow SH fans seem to show sympathy in a marvellously non-patronising way. They seem to share your pain, and genuinely be eager for sanity to return. It's like they see the 3N (sorry Rugby Championship) to be incomplete without a SA side coached well and firing. They don't want to just win - they want to win against the best opposition they can find.

Compare that to the sorry state of the 6N. When one team goes off song, or has a bit of an administrative or coaching debacle on their hands, the knives and sharpened by the opposition fans and the jibes and ribbing kick in. Players are gloating about the demise of other teams and revealing hideous and unattractive schadenfreude, rather than being realistic about what that implies about their own prospects.

We're too internally referenced, we need to break free of the boundary where being "the best in the NH" is a badge of honour. We need to see the global rugby world as one place, rather than a union of two intersecting sets.

That's right mitey, too heavily entwined, over-scrutinised and prone to anguishing over a vast array of players, coaches, back's coaches issues... of which there appears to be no shortage.

I heard a great line today about coaching staff telling some budding young star to "pull his head out of the tabloid social pages...." and "concentrate on his game!" and I fear this type of pressure (in all the Home Nations and France) is far more intense for players, coaches and staff, than in Australia, for example. It's fairly tense in NZ naturally and SA wouldn't be too far behind them.

Wales are definitely punching well above their weight (but still below their greatest side) at the moment but there's still room for improvement. Winning ugly may be a good sign in the post RWC tussle for dominance in the 6N (in the early stages where teams can experiment a bit with new players, organise good working combinations, etc) and preparing for the next RWC.

It's just that it hasn't all gone to plan.
Some great close wins, some bigger more comprehensive wins... but also a few losses along the way.

Whilst I do believe that Wales have some awesome players across most positions; we really haven't seen them all "click together" yet and perform to their maximum against the Top 3 teams, however they are well placed to launch an assault in order to break into the Top 4.

I think a better question I can this Wales side finally beat New Zealand

In 2002/2003 England were whipping the rest of the 6N by cricket scores. One sided processions of games.

Sure we boasted...but we had something to boast about.

At that peak of our game, we managed to pull off some hair raising victories against the SH. 17 in a row if my memory serves me well.

This Wales team scraping out victories over scratch England teams with the help of controversial decisions and going on like they're contenders to beat NZ is just absurd.

Australia have soundly beaten Wales twice on the trot. Keep your expectations in check, or you'll be in for a terrible shock.

Taylorman wrote:One of the interesting things is the lack of support you see amongst 6N teams across the board. With the 3N we tend to praise eachothers efforts a little more.

Dont get me wrong- we have our moments- particularly during heated 3N matches and maybe here its only a few posters but it seems theres a real need to see countries fail.

The 6N is a tournament that gives these countries its strength when venturing south.

Id take it so far in saying it explains partly the failure of successive lions tours here where despite everyone decaring and firmly believing they tour as one the underlying ripples are still there chipping away at the team on tour in any number of small ways.

The lions should be far superior to any one of the home union teams but the results just dont reflect it.

Food for thought for next year?

Might be wrong but thats the way it looks. Not all posters reflect this admittedly but enough to suspect its real in some way.

Taylorman,

I can see why you say that when you view these boards and it is true we seem to constantly be having a pop at each other but I know that is not true with the players and coaches.
A lot of international players compete with and against each regularly at club level and if anything that increases the respect of players with each other.

The Lions videos are also a good indication of the fantastic team spirit amongst fans, players and the management generally.

I would like to think a lot of posters who seem constantly to WUM & snipe would be quite different if you met them personally.
Its easy to hide behind a keyboard sometimes by the same token I have no doubt like a snap shot of the general public some are plonkers per se.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
I can see why you say that when you view these boards and it is true we seem to constantly be having a pop at each other but I know that is not true with the players and coaches.
A lot of international players compete with and against each regularly at club level and if anything that increases the respect of players with each other.

The Lions videos are also a good indication of the fantastic team spirit amongst fans, players and the management generally.

I would like to think a lot of posters who seem constantly to WUM & snipe would be quite different if you met them personally.
Its easy to hide behind a keyboard sometimes by the same token I have no doubt like a snap shot of the general public some are plonkers per se.

I am inclined to disagree with you on that one, a person's true nature comes through, not just because they are behind a keyboard.

Trur nature Mmmmmm! The true nature barometer is how posters handle defeat - People like GeordieFalcon, Gibson, Cymroglan are exemplary here and show their maturity - others just let the bitterness fester and Mighty is moving up that league at the moment and Safe As Milk is conspicuous by his absence with his occasional bitterness seeping through - 1 win and their posts will take on a different flavour and meaning and their lives will be easier - how sad.

I gues this really shows how far the Welsh suipporters expectations have slipped. After the2008 grandalm all the talk was " can wales win a world cup"
Now its "can they prove they were worthy of fourth place in the last world cup"

It is a strange question that 4th place thing? Anyways we couldn't win a world cup as Rollaind said so

RubyGuby wrote: It is a strange question that 4th place thing? Anyways we couldn't win a world cup as Rollaind said so

Surely, not blaming a referee there? I thought you were above that?

Taylorman wrote:One of the interesting things is the lack of support you see amongst 6N teams across the board. With the 3N we tend to praise eachothers efforts a little more.

Dont get me wrong- we have our moments- particularly during heated 3N matches and maybe here its only a few posters but it seems theres a real need to see countries fail.

The 6N is a tournament that gives these countries its strength when venturing south.

Id take it so far in saying it explains partly the failure of successive lions tours here where despite everyone decaring and firmly believing they tour as one the underlying ripples are still there chipping away at the team on tour in any number of small ways.

The lions should be far superior to any one of the home union teams but the results just dont reflect it.

Food for thought for next year?

Might be wrong but thats the way it looks. Not all posters reflect this admittedly but enough to suspect its real in some way.

The Lions is an IT. IT doesn't belong to a Nation, it doesn't have a people that define themselves as one entity. It is in essence a Club.

People talk of Lions being the absolute, the biggest honour, the real deal, that which marks out the men from the boys.

No it doesn't. It's a concept. A concept whereby the four distinct rugby Nations that make up the territory of both the Republic of Ireland and the United kingdom allow their players to form together to have a tour down South and play some rugby. It's a big tradition but no, I don't believe for a minute there is any real sense amongst fans that The Lions is more important, or should be more important than the standing of their own Nation.

They like The Lions to succeed because:
1. You can claim some link to that success, whether or not any of your National players get to play a significant role.
2. There is a chance that your National players WILL have a significant role, become Northern European heros for a few months and you can gloat on the spendor of it all.
3. It's a very exclusive club side with a rich tradition and it's own distinct, committed fans. It's something you want to be part of if being part of big ideas is something you crave.

All those reasons are pretty selfish, when you look at them in the cold light of day. We tend to enjoy the Lions for the part our own National players contribute to it.

National affiliations don't evaporate during the tours - it's just that better manners are maintained between National fans for the duration. But you only had to be around for the aftermath of the last one to realise those manners die off rapidly as the blame game starts about what went wrong, and which Nation's players were most responsible. So much for unifying power of The Lions.

If Wales beat Italy and then France, then yes I think they will end the tournament as 4th in the rankings..............your point being?

Wales and NZ should be consistantly 1 and 2 in the world, NZ are Wales aren't, now why is that?

SecretFly wrote: It's a big tradition but no, I don't believe for a minute there is any real sense amongst fans that The Lions is more important, or should be more important than the standing of their own Nation.

I think it is bigger secretfly. I mean to represent the lions means you are the best player in your position in the home nations, not just your own country. Even to tour means you are the best of the best. No players CV is quite complete without it just like a RWC.

All the great players have represented the Lions. Players careers are made or broken. 2001 was the making of BOD and announced his arrival on the world stage even more than the hattrick in paris.

I do confess that I haven't quite felt the same about the lions since the 2005 debacle but it is a massive part of our game here and the fact that the likes of BOD and O'Connell are playing until 2013 shows what it means to them as well. Its a huge hilight in a players career.

roddersm wrote:

SecretFly wrote: It's a big tradition but no, I don't believe for a minute there is any real sense amongst fans that The Lions is more important, or should be more important than the standing of their own Nation.

I think it is bigger secretfly. I mean to represent the lions means you are the best player in your position in the home nations, not just your own country. Even to tour means you are the best of the best. No players CV is quite complete without it just like a RWC.

All the great players have represented the Lions. Players careers are made or broken. 2001 was the making of BOD and announced his arrival on the world stage even more than the hattrick in paris.

I do confess that I haven't quite felt the same about the lions since the 2005 debacle but it is a massive part of our game here and the fact that the likes of BOD and O'Connell are playing until 2013 shows what it means to them as well. Its a huge hilight in a players career.

Some people like it, some take it ultra serious, some think it outweighs national success. For me personally, no, it doesn't come close. But that's only me. I'd prefer Irish players to win against SH opposition in their own right than to see them winning with The Lions. I'd like them winning with the Lions but prefering it? Thinking it a bigger goal?...........no, not for me.

Plus - I go back to the idea of the vicious undercurrents of continued nationalistic bile that runs under the smokescreen of those who claim to like the unifying aspect of The Lions. I know what I read after the Lions tours. And a lot of it sickens me to the core. When a player's national identity is used against him, when he is ridiculed and belittled by those who only a week or two previous would have claimed undying respect for the same player because he was then 'US' and not 'THEM' again. No, I don't see lingering respect - I see The Lions as an opportunity for some cruel Nationalistic badger baiting. Ireland will do me.

miteyironpaw wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: It is a strange question that 4th place thing? Anyways we couldn't win a world cup as Rollaind said so

Surely, not blaming a referee there? I thought you were above that?

You've even lost your satire now - this is very sad Mighty - Give the board a break for a while it will refresh you and you will come back in a better frame of mind. I'm serious mate, you are living and breathing toxic fumes and it aint good for your health and wellbeing.

Any one of Wales, England, France and Ireland could be in the World's top four in the next year of two, simply because the best Six Nations team is in it almost by default. Can Wales break into the world's top three is the real question.

Secretfly I'd rather see Ireland win a series against a SH side than the Lions no question.

However to see our guys get selected for the lions and even better to perform well and play in the test side is very special.

To provide the last 2 captains is a huge achievement and something to be proud of.

Watching old clips of Keith Wood playing a leading role alongside Martin Johnson in 1997 and a young BOD running lines off Jonny Wilkinson in 2001...no that is special. Even Geordan Murphys wonderful understanding with Shane Williams in 2005. Bowe and Ferris in 2009. BOD back to his best. Best of all Willie John in 74. The invincibles.

The best Rugby players reach a new level on the Lions tours. The cream floats to the top and it should be a special time for Irish fans.

71 and 74 for me Rodders - just watch how brutal those tests were - Remarkable wins

Do you know as a 10 year old in Wales at the time we were marched up from our school to the town hall from the Monday to the Friday 9.30-3 pm every day and made to sit through every game of the tour. Punishment or what - what a bonding and culturally superb experience that was - Probably be illegal now thanks to the PC Police

Before my time Ruby but I'm sure it was magic man!

I'll never forget watching the Lions in 97... Gibbs smashing du Randt and La Roux...Bentleys wonder try... Gusgotts drop goal...Jonno blubbering like a baby....

I was only there in spirit - I'm much younger really

RubyGuby wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: It is a strange question that 4th place thing? Anyways we couldn't win a world cup as Rollaind said so

Surely, not blaming a referee there? I thought you were above that?

You've even lost your satire now - this is very sad Mighty - Give the board a break for a while it will refresh you and you will come back in a better frame of mind. I'm serious mate, you are living and breathing toxic fumes and it aint good for your health and wellbeing.

Yes. You are right.

Again

Toxic fumes gone.

Meh. Wales = overrated. Welsh fans = getting over excited. My prediction = usual false dawn.

Mark my words by this time next month you'll all be back here clammering for a new coach to replace that "idiot" Gatland and his "moron" side-kick Edwards. Mark my words.

Wales = looking good
Wesh fans = Excited about the future

Mighty = Schweppes

Alright mate, hate it your way.

But please, if you won't listen to me about anything else, then please write down this number: 08457 90 90 90

Keep it handy and when the world seems to be crashing in, give it a ring before you do anything you might regret.

I recall as a kid the 71 tour. I grew up in tbe 70s thinking the NH and boks were typically stronger as our older folk didnt seem as happy with our rugby. 70 boks, 71 lions, even 72-73 where we lost to france, baa baas and several counties sides, then 76 boks again. I look back and those were actually our worst ever years.

By 77 I was playing and doing the scrapbook tour of the lions as kids do with 10 straight wins and coming off a bok series loss ( who had themselves been slaughtered by the greatest lions team ever) I knew for a fact the Lions were going murder the ABs in the series.

I was astounded that we got up to win the first test- albeit with the Batty intercept. But I finally understood why the ABs were touted as a great team.

Since 77 I think the lions have won one test here such is the turnaround.

Point being the 70s lions were largely successful because of the welsh players of the time but it still took the likes of the WJ Mcbrides, mighty mouse mcloughlin, duckham, utterly, beaumont etc to ensure the lions its greatness.

Wales in 69, 72 and 74 all lost to the abs despite being dominant in the 6N bit it took all four unions to work as one to truly produce a great team- and 71-74 were great teams in every description of the word.

The amount of divisiveness just serves no one though Im sure the players rise above it. There just seems to be enough there that holds them back even if at a subconscious level.

Anyway...bit heavy for this time of the morning so up and off...work beckons...

RubyGuby wrote:Trur nature Mmmmmm! The true nature barometer is how posters handle defeat - People like GeordieFalcon, Gibson, Cymroglan are exemplary here and show their maturity - others just let the bitterness fester and Mighty is moving up that league at the moment and Safe As Milk is conspicuous by his absence with his occasional bitterness seeping through - 1 win and their posts will take on a different flavour and meaning and their lives will be easier - how sad.

Ahem.

But which is worse? a bad loser or a bad winner? For example -mMost of us are sick of hearing about 2003.

Wales are rubbish. England have made three rugby world cup finals.

What if Argentina win a game or two this year in the new quadrangle? Could they get up to number 4. Just imagine that if Wales Slammed the 6 Nations but still ended up 5th. Wouldn't that just smart.

Seagultaf wrote:If Wales win their next two home games against Italy and France they will be in the top 4!

Whether they can then stay there, with a number of games planned against Southern Hemisphere sides, its a big ask. But getting into the top 4 is very do-able.

if Wales beat Italy and England beat France, Wales squeak ahead of France by 0.01 IRB ranking points