France vs Ireland match thread.

by **Biltong** Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

France: C Poitrenaud (Toulouse), V Clerc (Toulouse), A Rougerie (Clermont Auvergne), W Fofana (Clermont Auvergne), J Malzieu (Clermont Auvergne), F Trinh-Duc (Montpellier), M Parra (Clermont Auvergne), JB Poux (Toulouse), D Szarzewski (Stade Francais), N Mas (Perpignan), P Pape (Stade Francais), Y Maestri (Toulouse), T Dusautoir (Toulouse), J Bonnaire (Clermont Auvergne), I Harinordoquy (Biarritz)

Replacements: W Servat (Toulouse), V Debaty (Clermont Auvergne), L Nallet (Racing Metro), L Picamoles (Toulouse), J Dupuy (Stade Francais), L Beauxis (Toulouse), M Mermoz (Perpignan)

Ireland: R Kearney (Leinster); T Bowe (Ospreys), K Earls (Munster), G D'Arcy (Leinster), A Trimble (Ulster); J Sexton (Leinster), C Murray (Munster); C Healy (Leinster), R Best (Ulster), M Ross (Leinster), D O'Callaghan (Munster), P O'Connell (Munster), S Ferris (Ulster), S O'Brien (Leinster), J Heaslip (Leinster)

Replacements: S Cronin (Leinster), T Court (Ulster), D Ryan (Munster), P O'Mahony (Munster), E Reddan (Leinster), R O'Gara (Munster), F McFadden (Leinster)

After a nice exhausting weekend by the dam, I am at least back early enough to watch this match.

Irealand is up against it, but the French have not yet played a team in great form so this one might go either way.

Good luck to me Irish mates.

Of course I will be supporting the boys in green.

by **rodders** Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:23 pm

OK its sunny outside and I don't feel as bad about things. The depression is lifting. If we beat Scotland and England then it won't be the end of the world.

BELIEVE guinness

by dublin_dave Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:25 pm

heaslip spent the 80 minutes hitting rucks competing at the breakdown and trying to stem the blue tide. he did ok. himself and obrien have not carried at all purely because we seem to think we can win without the ball. we are so predictable in terms of who is going to carry. international coaches are smart and have twigged this so they can target sob etc

heaslips knock on was poor and could have cost us dear. i would question why we constantly have forwards standing in the out half position. on occasions they may make ground but by in large they get in the way. Again lack of attack coach and pattern

sexton made a few mistakes sure. poor penalty attempt and one overdone kick. no amount of game management in the world can enable him to ping the corners when we do not have the ball and our deep in our own half. ryle nugent was calling for rog on 50 minutes. to kick away ball we didn't have. hardly going to ping the corners from deep in his own 22. not going to go into the 10 debate, we have two good very different options. We are poor in attack when both start. ITS COACHING (or lack of it)

murray started very well and played like the murray who broke though not a poor mike phillips clone.he threw a few lose passes before his injury but other than that fine.. hopefully its not too serious. reddan did grand when he came on. certainly wasnt snapped in 3 as many anticipated.

as many have repeated ad nauseum our poor attacking game can not be blamed on Sexton or Rog for that matter. It is purely down to Kidney and his coaching team. We have gone from having a backs coach who was ineffective/ignored to having no recognized one. It shows.

with hindsight yesterday was a massively gutsy if limited performance. If it wasnt for superhuman defence at times we would have been beaten by 10 or 15 points. On the other side if we had some flair and invention in attack we would have made our brief spell of territory count

we will learn a lot on saturday

by ChequeredJersey Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:26 pm

whocares wrote:looking at the game stats on espnscrum.com (not sure if they are 100% accurate but seem to reflect the game) , Sexton apparently made 10 tackles (missed one), so better than Darcy and Earls (8/2 and 8/1), maybe he had more opprtunities as the french thought that attacking the 10 channel was easier (probably still thinking about the scotland game!) but still this is impressive for a fly half and could mean he could be a very good 12.
Ferris was the best tackler of the game alongside Bonnaire (14 each, no miss).
the other stat I found impressive is the number of metres ran by KEARNEY with the ball : 131m!

If he kicks, chases and wins the ball in the air (as he is wont to do) is that counted as metres gained?

by **rodders** Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:37 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
whocares wrote:looking at the game stats on espnscrum.com (not sure if they are 100% accurate but seem to reflect the game) , Sexton apparently made 10 tackles (missed one), so better than Darcy and Earls (8/2 and 8/1), maybe he had more opprtunities as the french thought that attacking the 10 channel was easier (probably still thinking about the scotland game!) but still this is impressive for a fly half and could mean he could be a very good 12.
Ferris was the best tackler of the game alongside Bonnaire (14 each, no miss).
the other stat I found impressive is the number of metres ran by KEARNEY with the ball : 131m!

If he kicks, chases and wins the ball in the air (as he is wont to do) is that counted as metres gained?

No but its not unusual for the FB to have a huge amount of meters gained given that they are running back from deep.

by The Great Aukster Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:39 pm

Sorry Rodders my err. Should've known a man of your insight would have spotted that. The truth is that I'm so one eyed and have such a large nose that I only ever see the first two characters of any word so I just saw Ro.... and filled in the rest. (It would have been the same if Ronaldo, Ronan Keating or Ronni Ancona had posted.)

by **rodders** Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:43 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Sorry Rodders my err. Should've known a man of your insight would have spotted that.

Ok aukster no need for the sarcasm man! Laugh

by Glas a du Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:44 pm

It's all right Aukster, I mix them up all the time.

by **rodders** Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:53 pm

Thats because we're the only two posters on here who think O'Brien can play at 7..... great minds and all that ..... Whistle

by Rava Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:54 pm

My team for the Scotland game. Based on the following:

1. In the middle of a four games in four week stretch.
2. Players out of form
3. Lack of imaginative play

15 Kearney
14 Zebo
13 Bowe
12 Wallace
11 Earls

10 Sexton
9 Reddan

1 Court
2 Conin
3 Ross

4 POC
5 Ryan

6 P O'Malley
7 Henry
8 SOB

Replacements: Healy, Best, Tuohy, Ferris, Boss, McFadden & O'Malley

by dublin_dave Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:22 pm

i would go for

kearney, bowe, cave (if fit), mc fadden, earls, sexton, reddan, sob, o malley, ferris, o connell, ryan, ross, cronin, court subs - healy,best,tuohy,henry,boss,rog,trimble. if no cave trimble to wing bowe to 13. would make a few changes as 4 international games in 4 weeks is a massive ask

say it will be
kearney,bowe,earls,mcfadden,trimble,sexton,reddan,heaslip,omahony,ferris,paulie,ryan,ross,cronin,healy - subs court,best,donners,obrien,boss,darcy

by Rory_Gallagher Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:26 pm

I don't really see the logic in disrupting our flanker partnership when they actually gelled for a change.

by KiaRose Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:...we also don't have a strength/conditioning coach - we never bothered with a replacement for the last guy!

According to the IRFU website, Jason Cowman is Fitness and Conditioning Coach! Appointed in 2007 as Strength and Conditioning Coach

http://www.irishrugby.ie/coaches/25514.php

Some interesting comments here on the game from a French perspective

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0305/1224312792301.html

Also, not sure if Gavin Cummiskey who compiles the players' ratings for the IT realised it, but add up the ratings for both teams and - it's a draw (95/160 for each team - he marks the bench as "one" player, hence the 160)

by Standulstermen Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:36 pm

Rory they didn't really. SOB was better but Heaslip was worse and they didn't really offer anything offensively.

Rest Heaslip and bring in POM moving O'Brien to 8.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:42 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Rory they didn't really. SOB was better but Heaslip was worse and they didn't really offer anything offensively.

Rest Heaslip and bring in POM moving O'Brien to 8.

Ferris and SOB both did much more work than they have done recently. SOB made the turnover which led to Bowe's try and made plenty more throughout the game. Both made a large amount of tackles throughout the game, and were brilliant at the breakdown, and this is against the same back row that outplayed NZs. Note I said our flankers gelled btw. Heaslip was not good.

Why not remove Heaslip and just leave POM at 8, instead of changing our flankers?

by Rava Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:47 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't really see the logic in disrupting our flanker partnership when they actually gelled for a change.

We are playing four games in four weeks. It's only the English that flog their players to exhaustion. We need to give people a break at some stage and I would rather tinker in this game than wait for an injury and have to change things for the England game.

by dublin_dave Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:50 pm

poc and murray gone for rest of 6 nations apparently.

a big blow. but someones loss comes another persons gain. i would suspect ryan and donners for saturday with tuohy or toner on the bench. boss and reddan im guessing will be scrum halves

not sure how long and if they are out for ulster game

by SecretFly Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:51 pm

KiaRose wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...we also don't have a strength/conditioning coach - we never bothered with a replacement for the last guy!

According to the IRFU website, Jason Cowman is Fitness and Conditioning Coach! Appointed in 2007 as Strength and Conditioning Coach

http://www.irishrugby.ie/coaches/25514.php

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/brendan-fanning-unfilled-conditioning-job-weakens-kidneys-hand-3038980.html

by Glas a du Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:51 pm

And people say Wales get their excuses in early!

by Standulstermen Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:59 pm

POC and Murray out of the 6n. TOL and McCarthy called up to the extended squad

by **rodders** Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:00 pm

dublin_dave wrote:poc and murray gone for rest of 6 nations apparently.

a big blow. but someones loss comes another persons gain. i would suspect ryan and donners for saturday with tuohy or toner on the bench. boss and reddan im guessing will be scrum halves

not sure how long and if they are out for ulster game

that is big news. O'Connell is a huge blow. I'd imagine Kearney will be captain now.

I suspect TOL will get the nod before Boss somehow.

by Standulstermen Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:01 pm

Toner isn't in the squad and of those other option Tuohy alone calls the line out. Maybe McCarthy too. Whoever gets the nod for calling could be in for a long day against Richie gray

Best will be captain rodders

by **rodders** Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:02 pm

McCarthy!

.... I give up!

by Glas a du Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:02 pm

Going for the millionth post?

by dublin_dave Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:10 pm

cannot wait for the old chestnut - we need a physical tough tackling scrum half for scottish game who excels in battering around the fringers and is not a fan of a pass : (

reddan will be eaten alive by the scottish back row

etc etc ad nauseum

o leary has looked better in the last few munster games i have watched to be fair

as for mc carthy - token connaught man

by SecretFly Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:19 pm

We shouldn't alway use Provincial form as a ruler for measuring potential Internationals. I think that old ruler is where we fail to make the big impacts other Nations do. We tick over from year to year and decade to decade - always good, never great.

If other nations used the same criteria we do for choosing players (or giving players their first break) there woud not now be any talk of Wales going for a Slam with their wonderkids...or indeed talk of the fear in our hearts about what Scotland might do to us.

They can't very well use Regional form as rulers. They go with what they can find. What they are finding is very hungry players indeed...ready to prove that International truly is a different beast and that so-so Provincials can find their true hunting ground in the extra buzz theatre of International.

Let's risk untried players rather than rushing back in panic to the usual suspects.

by Gibson Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:48 pm

Yes, take O Leary into this mess. Just leave Boss alone. Happy about that.

Thank Christ, Healy and Ross are ok, Otherwise, we'd be talking Horan & Hayes again. Wouldnt surprise me a bit.

Im going over to the game next week weekend, with great trepidation. Scotland could easily do us. Maybe its best if they do.

by Glas a du Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:51 pm

Who does the second row play for?

by Gibson Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:54 pm

Connacht. He's a good player, but... have you seen the Scottish pair? Brilliant. DOC will be lost without POC. He knows no other partner. They come as a pair. We are in deep doo-doo without POC.

by SecretFly Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:57 pm

Glas a du wrote:Who does the second row play for?

Don't be listening in as we plan our excuses Glas. It's not gentlemanly..............

by Glas a du Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:14 pm

Are Toner and Cullen that bad?

by Gibson Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:16 pm

Leo is recovering for Leinster and the HC. Ireland can feic off.

But, I would have had Toner long before McCarthy.

by **Notch** Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:19 pm

We've four second rows in the squad. POC, DOC, Ryan and Tuohy. Now POC is out and McCarthy is in. McCarthy may not necessarily make the bench.

I would actually like to see a Tuohy and Ryan partnership. Come on! Live a little. It's only risky because of the lack of interest in testing alternatives thus far tbh Shocked

by Gibson Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:36 pm

Id go for that. We may get something positive out of this 6-N.

They have been there for all the sessions. Done all the drills and practiced all the calls. So why not?

Id still move Ferris there tbh. I know he is our best forward (and 6) - along with POC, but if we want to win this one...
SOB would be back in Heaven at 6.

Anyway, we are talking WIBNI's here. Its Kidney. Sooo... it will be DOC & Ryan.

by skippy Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:46 pm

Id be willing to bet my house that it will be Doc and Ryan. Id like to see Tuohy and Ryan as well. Sadly this tournament is over for us now. Might as well mix it up a little and see what happens

by Glas a du Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:00 pm

Yeah, but you still cant throw away either game. It's the 6N after all. Fans have to face other nations fans at work.

by skippy Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:07 pm

We have already lost to the Welsh so thats my abuse out of the way this year anyway the Scots are an understanding bunch so there would be more likely a friendly pat on the back rather then any gloating Hug

by SecretFly Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:10 pm

Glas a du wrote:Yeah, but you still cant throw away either game. It's the 6N after all. Fans have to face other nations fans at work.

Wales have a pretty big ask in the Summer. Three games with Australia in their backyard. They have a headstart on the preparations for that. A good WC, positive vibes, lots of confidence, playing some potent rugby and in line for a Slam or Championship.

Ireland have a considerably more difficult prospect against the World Champions in their backyard with little or no head start on preparations. Disappointing WC, cumbersome 6N, a lack of tactics, a lack of coaches, players playing below their capacity and below the highest levels required to even put up a manful challenge to the All Blacks.
We don't have time left. We need to do homework... and a high intensity Real competition, with real motivations attached to it, is the only substantial trial period we have left.

by Red Right Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:11 pm

Glas a du wrote:Yeah, but you still cant throw away either game. It's the 6N after all. Fans have to face other nations fans at work.

Excellent point Glas. As we speak I am writing a strongly worded letter to the IRFU and Mr Kidney pointing out that as an Irish man living in London loss to either Scotland or England is not an option.

by Glas a du Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:14 pm

Loss is one thing, throwing it away something entirely different.

by skippy Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:27 pm

Glas a du wrote:Loss is one thing, throwing it away something entirely different.

I don't think mixing it up a bit is throwing it away. I for one will be gutted if we lose our remaining matches. We have been crying out for changes and now they have been forced upon us. I don't think Ryan and Doc will work therefore its worth taking a gamble on a new second row pairing, maybe Ryan and Tuohy. It could just work. So not throwing it away but taking a gamble.

by Rava Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 pm

There is one problem though. Tuohy has been flogged almost to a standstill for Ulster in the past few weeks. He is starting to look a bit jaded and I'm sure it was with a two week break in mind that McLaughlin kept him in the team ahead of a fit Muller last weekend.

From and Ireland point of view I would love him to get a cap. My word he deserves it with his consistent performances for the past two years. From an Ulster perspective I would dearly love to see him getting a well earned break.

by Standulstermen Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:40 pm

He didnt look jaded at all on friday Rava. A fine performance from him.

by Glas a du Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:53 pm

A call up is an amazing tonic.

by Standulstermen Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:58 pm

Looks like rava had it right anyway. Looked on Muppet and it looks like tuohy will be resting up the next two weeks.

by Morgannwg Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:10 pm

Morg's view - Had Ireland defended like that since the start of the 6 Nations they would be unbeaten by now. France were outblitzed and were put off by the Irish being in their faces and it showed. Also I think you were a bit lucky with DKs old choke, hold/maul tactics actually working, they are passed their sell by. France should have been more aware of that but weren't, but they did change their tactics in the second half and clawed their way back to get what was an undeserving draw.

Bowe was brilliant. He may be poor for Ospreys (who isn't) but he is still very potent for Ireland.

by Standulstermen Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:20 pm

Morgannwg wrote:Morg's view - Had Ireland defended like that since the start of the 6 Nations they would be unbeaten by now. France were outblitzed and were put off by the Irish being in their faces and it showed. Also I think you were a bit lucky with DKs old choke, hold/maul tactics actually working, they are passed their sell by. France should have been more aware of that but weren't, but they did change their tactics in the second half and clawed their way back to get what was an undeserving draw.

Bowe was brilliant. He may be poor for Ospreys (who isn't) but he is still very potent for Ireland.

I agree with you Morgan regarding the choke. I think it does have a place but should be more sparingly used.

by Morgannwg Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:29 pm

Yeah agree. Munster tend to do it when they are playing away from home without their centrally contracted internationals. That is when it seems to work well. Thought I haven't seen Ireland do that since playing Wales in the 2011 Six Nations.

by SecretFly Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:40 pm

Morgannwg wrote:Yeah agree. Munster tend to do it when they are playing away from home without their centrally contracted internationals. That is when it seems to work well. Thought Morg hasn't seen Ireland do that since playing Wales in the 2011 Six Nations.

'Fixed that for you', as they seem to say in the cool circles that I'm being trying to join now coz I want to be.

by Morgannwg Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:56 pm

Thanks.

by eirebilly Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:30 am

There still seems to be some doom and gloom around. Ireland have lost (narrowly) to a Welsh side that finished 4th in the RWC and were favorites going into this 6N, drew with France who were the runners up in the RWC and equal favorites for the 6N and they beat Italy by 32 points. Ireland can still finish 2nd or 3rd on points here.

How many people realistically thought that Ireland would win the 6N? I dreamed that they would but realistaclly thought 3rd or 4th.

This biggest failing that i have seen was the game plan in the second half against France. It was if Ireland were trying to close the match out after 45mins and not go for the win. A braver coach would have given Ireland more freedom to play in the second half.

That said, individual errors were far too high in the second half and that has to be looked at. I am not blaming the ref either because i thought that he was pretty poor for both sides.

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