S Shingler is tied to Wales

Confirmation of the IRB hearing: Shingler case Shame for the lad

Scottish RFU should be very embarrassed.

I wouldn't say anybody looks that clever out of this, Chunky

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I wouldn't say anybody looks that clever out of this, Chunky

The WRU have not done a thing wrong in this case.

A shame for Shingler really. Perhaps the WRU should just have let it go!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I wouldn't say anybody looks that clever out of this, Chunky

The WRU have not done a thing wrong in this case.

Apart from using their U20's to tie in a load of kids to them who have no idea of whether they are ever likely to be on the senior set ups radar.



Maybe just get an A side like almost everyone else and then this would not be an issue.

Chjw131 wrote:A shame for Shingler really. Perhaps the WRU should just have let it go!

And undermine / jeapordise their entire Age grade structure and the iRB regulations?

Probably blown his chance of playing international (snr) rugby now...

Cant see him being selected by Gatland, as Gats is a stickler for loyalty, and what Shingler did was out of self "greed" and showed no loyalty at all.

Hate to say it, but he brought it on himself.... bet the fact his brother got into the Welsh side hurts even more.

Both unions have ended up looking foolish, but I still think this is the right decision.

Hope Shings knuckles down and keeps building towards the Wales squad like he said he was doing last year. His brother has shown it can be done, and the 10 shirt is a very competative position in Wales right now. If Steve keeps working hard, I can see him overtaking Hook at least, and Priest isn't looking untouchable either, so if he still wants to, there's an opportunity here in Wales for him

ozzy - not sure we need to cover that old ground again. It's been known for a while now that the U20's has been Wales' 2nd senior team. Maybe confusion as to which games actually tie the players in, but in this case they were informed before the French match, so can't see the issue.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Apart from using their U20's to tie in a load of kids to them who have no idea of whether they are ever likely to be on the senior set ups radar.



Maybe just get an A side like almost everyone else and then this would not be an issue.

So Wales have stuck by the rules and you're giving them flak?

Love it.

The issue is that you are dealing with kids in essence dreamer, and making them make a career decision about their future at too young an age. Most of them at that age seem to struggle deciding what to have for dinner tomorrow let along where to pledge their entire future to.

Iv'e read on a different forum that Steven Shingler has failed in his appeal and he is now only eligible to play for Wales. It was apparently reported on Sky Sports.

rugbydreamer wrote:Both unions have ended up looking foolish, but I still think this is the right decision.

Hope Shings knuckles down and keeps building towards the Wales squad like he said he was doing last year. His brother has shown it can be done, and the 10 shirt is a very competative position in Wales right now. If Steve keeps working hard, I can see him overtaking Hook at least, and Priest isn't looking untouchable either, so if he still wants to, there's an opportunity here in Wales for him

We all know that's nonsense Dreamer. Gatts won't touch him with a barge pole now. SRU and Robinson are just as guilty as the WRU in this. Both sides have made a hash of this but it's the guys career that has been ruined. Shame on the SRU/WRU and IRB for this.

Well Chunky if you actually read what it says:

The Panel noted that, in accordance with IRB Regulation 8, playing in a designated capturing match was the key determining factor with regard to the player’s eligibility. In this respect the Panel accepted the evidence of the Welsh Rugby Union that although Shingler had not signed the Union eligibility confirmation form he had been fully advised by the WRU that playing in the France Under 20 v Wales Under 20 match during the 2011 Under 20 Six Nations would capture him for Wales.

The WRU should have had him sign the form is how I interpret that?

So now there will likely be changes, and no more capturing players at U20:

It also noted the recommendation of the IRB Rugby and Regulations Committees, subsequent to this hearing, that the designation of the Under 20 side as the next senior national representative team should no longer be sustained.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Both unions have ended up looking foolish, but I still think this is the right decision.

Hope Shings knuckles down and keeps building towards the Wales squad like he said he was doing last year. His brother has shown it can be done, and the 10 shirt is a very competative position in Wales right now. If Steve keeps working hard, I can see him overtaking Hook at least, and Priest isn't looking untouchable either, so if he still wants to, there's an opportunity here in Wales for him

We all know that's nonsense Dreamer. Gatts won't touch him with a barge pole now. SRU and Robinson are just as guilty as the WRU in this. Both sides have made a hash of this but it's the guys career that has been ruined. Shame on the SRU/WRU and IRB for this.

+1

Ozzy3213 wrote:The issue is that you are dealing with kids in essence dreamer, and making them make a career decision about their future at too young an age. Most of them at that age seem to struggle deciding what to have for dinner tomorrow let along where to pledge their entire future to.

Wales don't want and can't afford an A team. Theys ee developement as more key to rugby than 29 year olds playing in A games.

Wales just adhered to the iRB laws.

AlynDavies wrote:Iv'e read on a different forum that Steven Shingler has failed in his appeal and he is now only eligible to play for Wales. It was apparently reported on Sky Sports.

AD, think that's what's reported on this thread too

Wonder if he'll go to the Sports Tribunal in Switzerland now?

The IRB Regulations Committee Panel hearing the Steven Shingler eligibility case has determined that the player is tied to Wales in accordance with IRB Regulation 8 as it stands and therefore is ineligible to represent another Union.
The Panel consisting of Peter Boyle (Ireland, Chairman) Giancarlo Dondi (Italy) and Tim Gresson (New Zealand) heard evidence from the player, his agent and the Scottish and Welsh Rugby Unions at a hearing in Dublin on February 27.
The Panel determined that, based on the relevant provisions of IRB Regulation 8, the relevant guidelines and the facts presented at the hearing, Shingler is captured for Wales in accordance with IRB Regulation 8. This decision is binding on the parties until it is endorsed or overturned by the IRB Council.

The Panel noted that, in accordance with IRB Regulation 8, playing in a designated capturing match was the key determining factor with regard to the player’s eligibility. In this respect the Panel accepted the evidence of the Welsh Rugby Union that although Shingler had not signed the Union eligibility confirmation form he had been fully advised by the WRU that playing in the France Under 20 v Wales Under 20 match during the 2011 Under 20 Six Nations would capture him for Wales.

The Panel acknowledged that the ongoing review of the next senior national representative team under IRB Regulation 8 was launched in April 2011 in collaboration with all IRB Member Unions to determine a system that was appropriate.

It also noted the recommendation of the IRB Rugby and Regulations Committees, subsequent to this hearing, that the designation of the Under 20 side as the next senior national representative team should no longer be sustained. This issue will be considered by the IRB Council at its Special Meeting on May 15, 2012.

The Panel further recognised that the IRB Council will have made its determination on the recommendations of both Committees regarding the next senior national representative team review prior to its consideration of the Regulations Committee decision in the Shingler case.

Council, in accordance with IRB Regulation 2, is able to endorse or overturn the decision of the Regulations Committee. It should also be noted that unless specifically stated by Council, changes to Laws and Regulations do not have retrospective application.

http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2061389.html#steven+shingler+eligibility+decision

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

The WRU should have had him sign the form is how I interpret that?

How's that? As far as I know the form is a courtesy one for Wales records. Nothing official.

That the WRU actually bothered to have forms in the first place is commendable. People need to get their facts staright on this.

The WRU have not a put a single foot wrong here. And I am no fan of the WRU.

Everyone looks petty and small in this process. Not good for anyone.

The lad is guilty of being naive IMO and/or he has received poor advice, he's young and we should encourage him in every way possible now and let him know that he is very much on our radar - His brother has just been capped and we should get him on board asap

Ozzy3213 wrote:The issue is that you are dealing with kids in essence dreamer, and making them make a career decision about their future at too young an age. Most of them at that age seem to struggle deciding what to have for dinner tomorrow let along where to pledge their entire future to.

Here I will completely disagree. I think anyone over the age of 18, is easily able to make up their mind as to which country to play for. And if they are undecided, they could simply have opted out of playing the U20's v France games.

if you were on about U16's, perhaps even U18's I'd agree with you, but not U20's.

It also noted the recommendation of the IRB Rugby and Regulations Committees, subsequent to this hearing, that the designation of the Under 20 side as the next senior national representative team should no longer be sustained.

If that's what the iRB want then they can pay for the upkeep of a Wales A team.

Why? You'll just have to do without a designated second team - if they choose not to afford one, then that's the WRU's look out, surely?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Both unions have ended up looking foolish, but I still think this is the right decision.

Hope Shings knuckles down and keeps building towards the Wales squad like he said he was doing last year. His brother has shown it can be done, and the 10 shirt is a very competative position in Wales right now. If Steve keeps working hard, I can see him overtaking Hook at least, and Priest isn't looking untouchable either, so if he still wants to, there's an opportunity here in Wales for him

We all know that's nonsense Dreamer. Gatts won't touch him with a barge pole now. SRU and Robinson are just as guilty as the WRU in this. Both sides have made a hash of this but it's the guys career that has been ruined. Shame on the SRU/WRU and IRB for this.

+1

Agree with some of that. Shame on the SRU/WRU and IRB, yes, but I don't think Gatts will ignore him. If he keeps playing well and improving, then Gatts would be stupid not to use him. It would help him more if he came back after his stint with LI to play his rugby in Wales though. This guy is still only 21, plenty of time for him to improve and break into the squad. Even if he has to wait 4 years for Gatts to go, he'll still only be 25. Think it's far too early to say his career's been ruined.

dreamer, 17 year olds play in the U20's if they are good enough. At 10 I didn't know my orse from my elbow.

Whilst the WRU have breached no laws here, I think morally and ethically they have not come out of this smelling of roses.

Chjw131 wrote:A shame for Shingler really. Perhaps the WRU should just have let it go!

Why should they?

They sent Shingler to 2 World cups and paid for his coaching and training through two U20 6 Nations tournaments and all the age grade rugby before that, they invested heavily in him, only for those parasites from Scotland to take him away from Wales just when all that effort and investment looks like coming to fruition.

Secondly the Scottish would of been heavily fined if they had played Shingler and then he was found to be ineligible, money they can ill afford to lose looking at the perilous state of financial affairs in the Scottish game.

Scotland should be thankful to the WRU ,and embarassed they were so keen to slit their neighbours throats, not annoyed they lost out on Shingler.

The real Villain in all this though is Derwyn Jones, since his financial dispute with the WRU where they sacked him from his Development Officer job (he took them to court and won), he seems hell bent on damaging Welsh rugby. Loxton, Jarvis, Prydie, and now Shingler, that guy seems to do everything he can to take young Welsh players and drag them away from Wales.
The guy is an idiot, and I just wish the WRU would stop this clown working within Welsh rugby.

There's a big difference between 10 and 17, Pete! and sure, maybe 17 is still too young, but like I said, they can choose to opt out of playing against France.

Morally and ethically? seriously? They capped a player, who was informed he'd be tied to Wales if he played against France, he played against them. What exactly is it that people want the WRU to do? break the laws?

Baffling.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Whilst the WRU have breached no laws here, I think morally and ethically they have not come out of this smelling of roses.

That's ridiculous.

Their whole process of eligibility has come under question just beacsue they can't afford an A team.

They want confirmation of the current process and you think that is somewhow "underhand"?

Madness.

AlynDavies wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:A shame for Shingler really. Perhaps the WRU should just have let it go!

Why should they?

They sent Shingler to 2 World cups and paid for his coaching and training through two U20 6 Nations tournaments and all the age grade rugby before that, they invested heavily in him, only for those parasites from Scotland to take him away from Wales just when all that effort and investment looks like coming to fruition.

Secondly the Scottish would of been heavily fined if they had played Shingler and then he was found to be ineligible, money they can ill afford to lose looking at the perilous state of financial affairs in the Scottish game.

Scotland should be thankful to the WRU ,and embarassed they were so keen to slit their neighbours throats, not annoyed they lost out on Shingler.

Steady with the abuse, AD

Hw was coached, trained, invested in, etc., just as you say, but he has always had the option to choose one of a number of countries to represent (until Wales vs France at U20 level, but not in 2010, only in 2011? That is the rules as they currently stand, whether you like it or not

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Apart from using their U20's to tie in a load of kids to them who have no idea of whether they are ever likely to be on the senior set ups radar.



Maybe just get an A side like almost everyone else and then this would not be an issue.

So Wales have stuck by the rules and you're giving them flak?

Love it.

Indeed Chunky, Wales have just stuck by the 'rules' but ultimately for what? Are you seriously saying that you would scupper a young man's desire to play international rugby to maintain the 'integrity' of your age groups? What sort of approach is that?

If the desire is to tie in youngsters to Wales, what for? If a young man with no senior caps wants to play elsewhere when he has mixed parents who are the WRU and IRB to stop him frankly. It delivers absolutely no benefit to either side. Wales will not play him, he will not be able to play international rugby and even should Wales want to play him there's been so much animosity there's no telling whether he would do. It's utterly absurd in my opinion.

The laws should be designed around player choice with mixed parentage and as Ozzy says youngsters often change their mind. He didn't even sign the form, which is surely one of the most salient points here. From an equity perspective that should have held the sway over his appearance in the match.

AlynDavies wrote:

Scotland should be thankful to the WRU ,and embarassed they were so keen to slit their neighbours throats, not annoyed they lost out on Shingler.

Absolutely. But it's so, so easy to ignore the facts and cast Wales as the bad guys too eh?

rugbydreamer wrote:There's a big difference between 10 and 17, Pete! and sure, maybe 17 is still too young, but like I said, they can choose to opt out of playing against France.

Morally and ethically? seriously? They capped a player, who was informed he'd be tied to Wales if he played against France, he played against them. What exactly is it that people want the WRU to do? break the laws?

Baffling.

dreamer, that's being silly, nobody is suggesting that the WRU broke the laws, but clearly there's a young lad here who believed that by not signing a document could keep his international options as a senior player wide open - there's at best been a misunderstanding?

Chjw131 wrote:[

Indeed Chunky, Wales have just stuck by the 'rules' but ultimately for what? Are you seriously saying that you would scupper a young man's desire to play international rugby to maintain the 'integrity' of your age groups? What sort of approach is that?

Err, it's an approach that has cost millions of pounds in development.

Or perhaps they should just give up and hand the next George North to England.

All Steve Shingler had to do was decline to play against France. He knew playing against France, and only France, was going to tie him to Wales, but he chose to make that decision, no one else made it for him. If he wasn't sure who he wanted to play for he should have pulled out. It was his error that's caused this problem, and unfortunately for him it may mean he never get's to play international rugby.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

Scotland should be thankful to the WRU ,and embarassed they were so keen to slit their neighbours throats, not annoyed they lost out on Shingler.

Absolutely. But it's so, so easy to ignore the facts and cast Wales as the bad guys too eh?

Let's just leave national stereotypes and hang-ups at the door in this particular case can we? The far more important matter of a young man's career is being discussed, no one is using this to deliberately smear the WRU.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: there's at best been a misunderstanding?

But not from Wales. Who have known the correct situation from the outset.

Shingler, his agent, the SRU and the iRB have not been in control of the situation.

The only ones who have are the WRU.

jay_welsh wrote:All Steve Shingler had to do was decline to play against France. He knew playing against France, and only France, was going to tie him to Wales, but he chose to make that decision, no one else made it for him. If he wasn't sure who he wanted to play for he should have pulled out. It was his error that's caused this problem, and unfortunately for him it may mean he never get's to play international rugby.

And like I said, he was a kid at the time who should have been protected (possibly by the IRB) from having to make a career defining decision at that stage in his life.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Steady with the abuse, AD

Hw was coached, trained, invested in, etc., just as you say, but he has always had the option to choose one of a number of countries to represent (until Wales vs France at U20 level, but not in 2010, only in 2011? That is the rules as they currently stand, whether you like it or not

He made his choice by accepting and playing for Wales U20's, as was made clear to him, and proven so by this case, to play for Wales. Not to mention coming out publicly and saying he wanted to play for Wales, not to mention being in the advert with a lot of REAL Welsh Fly Half legends.

He made his choice then in my eyes.

There is a lot of blame to be sent around here.

Scotland for behaving the way they did, and being so disrespectful to the WRU.

The IRB for having such a shambles for a second team system.

Derwyn Jones his agent for giving Shingler such bad advice.

And Shingler himself for being such a treacherous snake.

I'm no fan of the WRU at times, but to me it looks as though they have done everything by the book and acted with dignity through out this whole process.

" although Shingler had not signed the Union eligibility confirmation form"

"It also noted the recommendation of the IRB Rugby and Regulations Committees, subsequent to this hearing, that the designation of the Under 20 side as the next senior national representative team should no longer be sustained."

Sounds like the boy just needs to get himself a better lawyer

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:[

Indeed Chunky, Wales have just stuck by the 'rules' but ultimately for what? Are you seriously saying that you would scupper a young man's desire to play international rugby to maintain the 'integrity' of your age groups? What sort of approach is that?

Err, it's an approach that has cost millions of pounds in development.

Or perhaps they should just give up and hand the next George North to England.

Chunky, that's the same approach that would have cost millions of pounds had the same player had played in two JWC's but refused to take the field against France in 2011 (it was ok in 2010, see Jarvis and Loxton) but had done so in all other games? That would have kept his elgibility open and the WRU investment would have been no different? Your argument is hollow

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: there's at best been a misunderstanding?

But not from Wales. Who have known the correct situation from the outset.

Shingler, his agent, the SRU and the iRB have not been in control of the situation.

The only ones who have are the WRU.

So because the WRU have been in control of the situation in tying a whole host of young players to them that makes doing it right does it?

What animosity Chjw?

From all I've seen, Welsh posters on here were disappointed that he might have gone off to Scotland, as he's been such a huge prospect here in Wales. We were gutted at the thought of losing him.

EDIT - just seen some animosity form Alyn.

Alyn, seriously, trecherous snake? Just seems to be much more misguided to me. If anyone is to take a lot of the blame, in my eyes it's Derwyn Jones.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:[

Indeed Chunky, Wales have just stuck by the 'rules' but ultimately for what? Are you seriously saying that you would scupper a young man's desire to play international rugby to maintain the 'integrity' of your age groups? What sort of approach is that?

Err, it's an approach that has cost millions of pounds in development.

Or perhaps they should just give up and hand the next George North to England.

Well you're right yes he is English. As is Cuthbert I believe. Anyway that's an absurd point. It certainly has not cost the WRU 'millions' to assist young Shingler in his development, otherwise the WRU would have been bankrupt long ago. The point here is not money it should be about desire and a young man's entire future.

Besides, if he hadn't have played in that one game Wales would have had no power over him. Thus the 'millions' in training and development would have gone anyway!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: there's at best been a misunderstanding?

But not from Wales. Who have known the correct situation from the outset.

Shingler, his agent, the SRU and the iRB have not been in control of the situation.

The only ones who have are the WRU.

Before the match when the lad was given the documentation to sign, none of "his agent, the SRU and the iRB" were in the room, I would hazard a guess, but somehow he returned the document stating that he did not want to sign it and tie himself to Wales

rugbydreamer wrote:What animosity Chjw?

From all I've seen, Welsh posters on here were disappointed that he might have gone off to Scotland, as he's been such a huge prospect here in Wales. We were gutted at the thought of losing him.

EDIT - just seen some animosity form Alyn.

Alyn, seriously, trecherous snake? Just seems to be much more misguided to me. If anyone is to take a lot of the blame, in my eyes it's Derwyn Jones.

As you point out yourself dreamer, terms like 'parasites' and 'treacherous snake' are to my mind hardly expressions of 'disappointment' in my eyes.

I honestly can't agree with people on here who are saying that when you play for the U20's you're too young to make the decision to play for your country. If you are unsure, from a Welsh pov you opt out of the France match. It's as simple as that. I honestly can't understand the issue with that.

AlynDavies wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Steady with the abuse, AD

Hw was coached, trained, invested in, etc., just as you say, but he has always had the option to choose one of a number of countries to represent (until Wales vs France at U20 level, but not in 2010, only in 2011? That is the rules as they currently stand, whether you like it or not

He made his choice by accepting and playing for Wales U20's, as was made clear to him, and proven so by this case, to play for Wales. Not to mention coming out publicly and saying he wanted to play for Wales, not to mention being in the advert with a lot of REAL Welsh Fly Half legends.

He made his choice then in my eyes.
There is a lot of blame to be sent around here.

Scotland for behaving the way they did, and being so disrespectful to the WRU.

The IRB for having such a shambles for a second team system.

Derwyn Jones his agent for giving Shingler such bad advice.

And Shingler himself for being such a treacherous snake.

I'm no fan of the WRU at times, but to me it looks as though they have done everything by the book and acted with dignity through out this whole process.

But clearly not in his own

Maybe he saw how bad Preistland has been playing he could not do worse hence there is an opening for the 10 position with Wales.

Chjw131 wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:What animosity Chjw?

From all I've seen, Welsh posters on here were disappointed that he might have gone off to Scotland, as he's been such a huge prospect here in Wales. We were gutted at the thought of losing him.

EDIT - just seen some animosity form Alyn.

Alyn, seriously, trecherous snake? Just seems to be much more misguided to me. If anyone is to take a lot of the blame, in my eyes it's Derwyn Jones.

As you point out yourself dreamer, terms like 'parasites' and 'treacherous snake' are to my mind hardly expressions of 'disappointment' in my eyes.

I can practically guarantee you that the use of those terms will not be widely used here in Wales. As a Scarlets fan I know how upset we all were when he left to go to LI, and there was huge disappointment when it came out he wanted the chance to play for Scotland despite only speaking out a few months ago at wanting to play for Wales. The guy is a huge talent. Regardless of whether this current coaching regime uses him, I would hope, if he keeps improving, he gets a chance in a Wales shirt later on in his career. I am sure there are many other who feel that way also