The LV= cup - is it worth an English HEC qualification?

The Anglo-Welsh/Low-value/Scouser Queen cup - whatever you want to call it is just a padding which is what it should be - a development team distraction to be played whilst international call-ups deplete club strength.

Whatever possessed the PRL/RFU to agree that this ultimate tin pot should be recognised a worthy of an HEC spot?

A sop to bean-counters I suspect...

Rarely do I agree with Portnoy. Well said.

beshocked wrote:Rarely do I agree with Portnoy. Well said.

Get in touch, beshocked. I want to borrow a sarries top for the Shirt of Hurt appeal.

For the bigger clubs it means their youngsters can get experience against the bigger names of the smaller clubs without risking AP points. Smaller clubs chase the carrott of HEC qualification. Everyone gets money off of Sky and LV.

No HEC would mean less sponsorship, less tv rights and next to no chance of any first teamers being involved. This would mean development wise it wouldn't be as useful and it would pretty much become an A League Cup.

Out of interest what happens if a welsh, or already qualified side win the cup? I have never really thought of it. Does it just mean that the HC spot goes to the next place down in the league instead?

formerly known as Sam wrote:For the bigger clubs it means their youngsters can get experience against the bigger names of the smaller clubs without risking AP points. Smaller clubs chase the carrott of HEC qualification. Everyone gets money off of Sky and LV.

No HEC would mean less sponsorship, less tv rights and next to no chance of any first teamers being involved. This would mean development wise it wouldn't be as useful and it would pretty much become an A League Cup.

Yes it would be an A League Cup Sam. Precisely what it is. And I admire Cockers for saying that that's exactly the way he'll continue to treat it.

And I'm pretty sure that the Saints would respond in like manner.

But in matters like this, I can only initiate subjects when the circumstance arises. i.e. from a position of strength in that I deny the right of my own club to potentially gain an (unfair?) advantage.

Neither Saints nor the Tigers are unlikely to qualify for the HEC so ultimately it won't make a flip of a difference.

I've constantly been bombarded with accusations that that I am a one-eyed Tiger and raging about playoffs and wage-caps etc. But that has never been true.

I've always been banging on about sporting fairness.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Out of interest what happens if a welsh, or already qualified side win the cup? I have never really thought of it. Does it just mean that the HC spot goes to the next place down in the league instead?

So far as I know Scarlet, It's an entirely English thing.

Portnoy - Yeah I know that the qualification for the HEC is purely for the Jeff sides, but whoever wins it now between Saints and Tigers is already (or most likely) in the HEC for next season. So would the HEC slot go to the next non-qualified side in the Jeff or would it go to Bath for being the best in the tournament not qualified for the HEC?

It will now go to the sixth placed team in the AP

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Portnoy - Yeah I know that the qualification for the HEC is purely for the Jeff sides, but whoever wins it now between Saints and Tigers is already (or most likely) in the HEC for next season. So would the HEC slot go to the next non-qualified side in the Jeff or would it go to Bath for being the best in the tournament not qualified for the HEC?

Yes. Top 6 in the Jeff qualify for the HEC, unless a Jeff side outside of the top 6 wins the LV. Then it's top 5 plus LV winner.

I'm aware of what the quali rules are.

All I'm doing (once again) is examining the rules and opening them to public scrutiny.

It's entirely possible that a team could win the tin pot.

The question is put again : should they merit an HEC spot?

Portnoy wrote:

The question is put again : should they merit an HEC spot?

Not if Leicester win it, you one-eyed Tiger!

More seriously, to answer the question - probably not as you don't have to do as much to get a spot. I would far prefer it returns to a English cup open to all sides. It would still aid development, but would do it on a wider scale. In that instance I would definitely want HC as a reward.

Portnoy wrote:I'm aware of what the quali rules are.

All I'm doing (once again) is examining the rules and opening them to public scrutiny.

It's entirely possible that a team could win the tin pot.

The question is put again : should they merit an HEC spot?

Sorry about that I was unsure of what happened in a already qualified team won.

NO i don't think there should be a tournament ran only during periods when internationals are missing that can decide european qualification. Also it seems warped that there is a competition that can decide european qualification, but not for quarter of the participants.

But that said it would probably be even less followed if there was nothing riding on it bar a bit of bragging rights.

Should the winners get a European place - no.

As already stated getting rid of it would see the competition disappear as neither LV nor Sky would pay the money they do now for sponsorship/TV rights.

This in turn means less money to the clubs and thus smaller squads and players released etc.

Seeing as, off teh top of my head, I am unable to recall a winner not already qualifying via their league position - I am reasonably happy with the situation.

No way should it be a HEC spot, it's a joke competition.

Wow these grapes are sour

LondonTiger wrote:Seeing as, off teh top of my head, I am unable to recall a winner not already qualifying via their league position - I am reasonably happy with the situation.

Cardiff Blues, and the Ospreys arew two winners that didn't qualify for the HEC through the Jeff! But I know what you mean. It would be like saying that you can get an automatic World Cup place by winning the Six Nations or the Quad Nation (is that what it called now?)

So, If an english team wins the LV they get automatic qualification into H-Cup.
And you also get H-Cup qualif if you win the Amlin cup.
Could England potentially have 7 teams in the H-Cup?

propdavid_london wrote:So, If an english team wins the LV they get automatic qualification into H-Cup.
And you also get H-Cup qualif if you win the Amlin cup.
Could England potentially have 7 teams in the H-Cup?

The spot for winning the LV comes out of the 6 places England automatically get in the HC.

Yes England can have seven spots if an English club wins HC or Amlin (as we have this year). In the unlikely event of winning HC and Amlin England does NOT get 8 spots

Cheers Tiger.
Yes, thought it was capped. Was just thinking about the inlikely position of the H-Cup, Amlin and or LV winners coming from teams outside the top 6 in the prem.
Presumably only the playoff teams would gain qualification for the following seasons H-Cup.

Yes it would be an A League Cup Sam. Precisely what it is. And I admire Cockers for saying that that's exactly the way he'll continue to treat it.

Tigers treat it as an A Team (sometimes not even that) competition but many others take it more seriously.

or the Quad Nation (is that what it called now?)

Southern Hemisphere International Tournament?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Southern Hemisphere International Tournament?

Five Star comment

propdavid_london wrote:Cheers Tiger.
Yes, thought it was capped. Was just thinking about the inlikely position of the H-Cup, Amlin and or LV winners coming from teams outside the top 6 in the prem.
Presumably only the playoff teams would gain qualification for the following seasons H-Cup.

Doubt we would ever have to worry about it, but yes in that scenario only top 4 make it.

Unless one of teh 3 cup winners was relegated I believe. You have to be in the AP to play in HC.

Is the LV Cup worthy of a European spot?

Why not, its no less farcical than qualifying simply because you happen to play in the Celtic League.

Should they get HEC qualification. Depends on who you think should get HEC qualification. If it's the best 6+ teams from the previous year? Then no. But how often do we see a team or two bum out completely after finishing in the top 6? So it's not always the best 6 teams this season. Over all, who cares?

I say keep it because it keeps some clubs putting out strong sides and some meaning in terms of adding money for winning. Would the experience for a largely youngish starting 15 for Leicester been as useful if it was against a Bath reserves side? No. As it is players like Ford have had a chance against the almost 1st choice Bath side. Much better.

Equo Troiano wrote:Is the LV Cup worthy of a European spot?

Why not, its no less farcical than qualifying simply because you happen to play in the Celtic League.

Really, why?

Because you have to actually win a competition?

Bathite wrote:Because you have to actually win a competition?

Yeah but going by that logic the LV= is a more meaningful HEC qualification route than finishing second, third, forth, or fifth in the Jeff.

Not really, because you actually have to win matches to finish in the top 5 of the AP, just qualifying by virtue of turning up isn't the same, and therefore, your logic is flawed.

Equo Troiano wrote:Not really, because you actually have to win matches to finish in the top 5 of the AP, just qualifying by virtue of turning up isn't the same, and therefore, your logic is flawed.

Quite, thanks Equo

Bathite wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:Not really, because you actually have to win matches to finish in the top 5 of the AP, just qualifying by virtue of turning up isn't the same, and therefore, your logic is flawed.

Quite, thanks Equo

You have to win matches to qualify in the Rabo12 too (for the irish and the welsh), so there is not really a flaw in my logic. Also Bathite did say "Because you have to actually win a competition?" so again there is no flaw in my arguement or logic there, as only the side crowned the Jeff Champions win the competition, 2nd-5th are just grades of runners up/losers. Anyway this is not really a discussion on how other competitions/nations grant HEC qualification, but whether or not in its current format the LV= Cup is really a decent and fair method of gaining qualification into the HEC.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Bathite wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:Not really, because you actually have to win matches to finish in the top 5 of the AP, just qualifying by virtue of turning up isn't the same, and therefore, your logic is flawed.

Quite, thanks Equo

You have to win matches to qualify in the Rabo12 too (for the irish and the welsh), so there is not really a flaw in my logic. Also Bathite did say "Because you have to actually win a competition?" so again there is no flaw in my arguement or logic there, as only the side crowned the Jeff Champions win the competition, 2nd-5th are just grades of runners up/losers. Anyway this is not really a discussion on how other competitions/nations grant HEC qualification, but whether or not in its current format the LV= Cup is really a decent and fair method of gaining qualification into the HEC.

Well since 75% of them qualify regardless of league position, there kind of is isn't there?

as only the side crowned the Jeff Champions win the competition

You're risking opening up an entire hornets nest there. The league traditionalists vs the play off thrill seekers. I know some people who refuse to acknowledge the winners of the playoffs as the champions of England. It gets very messy.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

as only the side crowned the Jeff Champions win the competition

You're risking opening up an entire hornets nest there. The league traditionalists vs the play off thrill seekers. I know some people who refuse to acknowledge the winners of the playoffs as the champions of England. It gets very messy.

I did think that as i typed it. I guess thats the joy of rugby there is always a mine feild to step into somewhere.


Equo - if only 3 of four sides qualify then yes they do need to win more matches than the side that doesn't go through. I appreciate that you are just looking for an arguement so that will be my last comment on it. As I said this is meant to be a discussion on something totally different to the arguement you seem to want to have.

Its not just only 3 or 4 sides though is it? Its 3 of 4 sides qualify, and thats for each country. So rather than accuse me of looking for an argument, stop twisting my words.

Regarding the original question, winning the LV Cup is no less worthy (in my opinion) of a European place than qualifying automatically simply because your particular league has a quota for proportional representation.

Equo - how am I twisting your words? Also I just corrected the typo, sorry about that, guess thats what happens when I try to type to quick.

I do see you point with regards to the LV= Cup being a worthy route to the HEC. I do wonder how fair it is as a route of qualification as it is a competition that is played when International players are unavailable. Also the current way the competition is played with Group A teams playing against Group B teams (or whatever goup/pool they do play against), is rather unusual, and it is possible for a team to lose all their matches and top the group, and likewise you could win all your games with bonus points and finish bottom of the Group. Which (unless i am mistaken) means you can technically win the competition with only 2 wins. Coupled with the fact that it is a cross-boarder competition and a route HEC qualification for 75% of the sides involved and not the others 25%. It does seem bizarre that it can decide who goes into the following seasons HEC.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Bathite wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:Not really, because you actually have to win matches to finish in the top 5 of the AP, just qualifying by virtue of turning up isn't the same, and therefore, your logic is flawed.

Quite, thanks Equo

You have to win matches to qualify in the Rabo12 too (for the irish and the welsh), so there is not really a flaw in my logic. Also Bathite did say "Because you have to actually win a competition?" so again there is no flaw in my arguement or logic there, as only the side crowned the Jeff Champions win the competition, 2nd-5th are just grades of runners up/losers. Anyway this is not really a discussion on how other competitions/nations grant HEC qualification, but whether or not in its current format the LV= Cup is really a decent and fair method of gaining qualification into the HEC.

Comparing the Rabo and the Jeff is an apples and pears job.

I agree with Spider - it's not a league beauty contest. It's a question about whether HEC qualification via the LV cup is good enough for the Jeff.

ScarletSpiderman wrote: Also I just corrected the typo, sorry about that

Typo eh?.... righto....