Greatest European Boxer of all time

I was going to try and list my top 10 greatest European (including Britsih) boxers but insprired by jeff's Waingro like poll on the greatest British boxers, I thought I'd also take the lazy option!! I've included the four fighters with the most votes in Jeff's list and added a few continental fighters to the mix.

McLarnin and Fitzsimmons omitted for the usual reasons.

is Tszyu European?

Lewis gets my vote.

I'm classing Tszyu as Russian so yes, he is European.

Nice idea, SuperFly.

Not an easy choice and I imagine I'd probably have a different pick just about every day. Today though I've plumped for Loi. Not sure if I'm perhaps overcompensating for him being underrated / underappreciated in many quarters, but he was a remarkable performer all the same. Avenged all defeats, a dominant Light-Welterweight champion and someone who got out at precisely the right time, too. Ortiz, Perkins etc are wins anyone in your poll would be proud of.

Loi is criminally underrated, Chris. I'm wavering between him and Papp (largely on what might have been as a professional) at the moment.

I guess one of the problems with Loi is that whilst he has a few good names on his record (Ortiz in particular), he did suffer from being avoided like the plague (lets face it, who needs a swarming fighter with sound defence and a granite chin).

I've seen him likened to Hatton but with a sound defence. I think that does him a disservice I'd be more inclined to compare him stylistically with Duran.

True enough, SuperFly. Much like Wilde, Loi was an absolute model of consistency throughout a hectic career, the primary difference being that Loi's pair of wins over the great Ortiz are far superior to anything Wilde did. Some big names just above his head at 147 lb, mind you - Loi was never a natural Welterweight, but if I remember rightly he was a highly respected European champion at that weight (and a long-serving one, too) so I reckon he would at the very least have given guys such as Griffith and Rodriguez a very stern argument.

Terrific fighter, that's for sure.

Clicked other by mistake so please ignore that vote, cheers

rowley wrote:Clicked other by mistake so please ignore that vote, cheers

Pull the other one, Jeff. You're just mad because Hamed's not there and the 'other' option represented the closest thing possible to a vote for him.

does that mean you were going for Wlad, jeff?

I was actually thinking of Mclarnin Chris because for me I always thought the issue with him was classing Northern Ireland as Britain, but thinking about it his status is not as clear cut as that because like Fitz he took US citizenship so again he is a subject better avoided.

I would never vote for Hamed, suspect it would finish Alma off this time.

Dulio Loi! Never heard of him!

Super D Boon wrote:Dulio Loi! Never heard of him!

You're not alone, Boon. There's footage of him on youtube and some decent articles out there (cyber boxing zone and eastside both have biographies).

Superfly since I voted for Welsh on the British thread I will stick with him here, also has the effect of making me clicking other look less of a mistake as well.

I'm going to have to go down that route unfortunately but Mclarnin is definitely european, he always considered himself Irish, he was always considered Irish so to me is therefore Irish.

As for who the greatest european of all time is well going to have to go with Lewis again with Wilde and Mclarnin close behind him, interestingly not that many mainland european who could really be considered above their british counterparts. Loi, Carpentier and Cerdan being the best of the bunch.

Elsewhere I have seen, Jimmy Wilde, Marcel Cerdan and Laszlo Papp rated as the best European boxers. Lennox Lewis rarely gets a mention.

Laszlo is easily the greatest european amateur but wouldn't for a moment consider his brief tenure in the professional game.

Audley Harrison looked good at amateur level

Where's Cornish Bob ?

Hes Yosemite bob now mate.

Ha nice one Shah!

It's a funny one isn't it? Bob was born in England, his mother was English and his father was Irish. Then He started boxing in New Zealand and then in Australia, before finally fighting in the US. Seems we rarely claim Bob these days, yet we claim Lennox, who was of course born here, to a Jamaican father and learned his art in Canada.

If he was cr ap he's a Kiwi, but since his ranked 3 in my all time lists Bob is British and shouldve been prime minister!

tcribb wrote:Ha nice one Shah!

It's a funny one isn't it? Bob was born in England, his mother was English and his father was Irish. Then He started boxing in New Zealand and then in Australia, before finally fighting in the US. Seems we rarely claim Bob these days, yet we claim Lennox, who was of course born here, to a Jamaican father and learned his art in Canada.

If he was cr ap he's a Kiwi, but since his ranked 3 in my all time lists Bob is British and shouldve been prime minister!

Shhh. Steffan will burst from rage at that admission. Because we all know Calzaghe was english too only the bits between being born and upto the lacy fight (though not including the lacy fight) and after he retired are when he was welsh. Cleverly is welsh for now.

ShahenshahG wrote:Shhh. Steffan will burst from rage at that admission. Because we all know Calzaghe was english too only the bits between being born and upto the lacy fight (though not including the lacy fight) and after he retired are when he was welsh. Cleverly is welsh for now.

Im not really bothered to be honest

1. I want Fitzsimmons in there. I will throw toys out of prams unless he gets included
2. Why have 5 people voted for Lennox Lewis?
3. Why has 1 person voted for Wlad - with no-one interested in Ted "kid" Lewis?

Seems a sad reflection of the interests of the forum.

Nice idea tho Superfly! Feels good to think about something other than Haye/Chisora for a change!

Would rather you said than me Oxy.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Would rather you said than me Oxy.

Sad how it feels like we've said it all before though - no?

It is Oxy but I can understand people choosing Lewis over Wilde, I wouldn't have until recently picked Garrincha or Friedenreich over Rivaldo or Romario but you live and learn.

I've always had a slight problem with Ted Kid Lewis inasmuch his greatness is hugely defined by the fact he fought around 1376 fights with around 400 of those between himself and Britton. Didn't he have a losing record in that rivalrly? Lewis and Britton should have got a room!

oxring wrote:2. Why have 5 people voted for Lennox Lewis?
3. Why has 1 person voted for Wlad - with no-one interested in Ted "kid" Lewis?

Seems a sad reflection of the interests of the forum.

2. Because they wanted to.
3. Because they wanted to.

I said this on jeff's thread about the greatest British boxers, but I will say it again. If someone has a genuine and heartfelt reason for voting for someone, then so be it. There is a really nice mix of knowledge on here and that makes the forum work. Some people might not have the time to enter into deep research about fighters, so they judge on what they know, absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Calling it a 'sad reflection' on the forum is both untrue and unhelpful. As a moderator you should be encouraging everyones opinions and not fostering some sort of elitist club which is where that kind of attitude will lead.

I have commented to you before, Oxy, that I really enjoy your posts. Most of them are erudite, beautifully crafted, interesting and you clearly have an outstanding grasp of the English language. Having said that, and I don't know if Az has truly rattled your cage or something, but recently you are a few posts away from being pompous.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:2. Why have 5 people voted for Lennox Lewis?
3. Why has 1 person voted for Wlad - with no-one interested in Ted "kid" Lewis?

Seems a sad reflection of the interests of the forum.

2. Because they wanted too.
3. Because they wanted too.

I said this on jeff's thread about the greatest British boxers, but I will say it again. If someone has a genuine and heartfelt reason for voting for someone, then so be it. There is a really nice mix of knowledge on here and that makes the forum work. Some people might not have the time to enter into deep research about fighters, so they judge on what they know, absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Calling it a 'sad reflection' on the forum is both untrue and unhelpful. As a moderator you should be encouraging everyones opinions and not fostering some sort of elitist club which is where that kind of attitude will lead.

I have commented to you before, Oxy, that I really enjoy your posts. Most of them are erudite, beautifully crafted, interesting and you clearly have an outstanding grasp of the English language. Having said that, and I don't know if Az has truly rattled your cage or something, but recently you are a few posts away from being pompous.

To*

AlexHuckerby wrote:To*

I have edited it for you, Alex, my little HR friend.

Oxy clearly has a greater grasp of the English language than me.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:2. Why have 5 people voted for Lennox Lewis?
3. Why has 1 person voted for Wlad - with no-one interested in Ted "kid" Lewis?

Seems a sad reflection of the interests of the forum.

2. Because they wanted to.
3. Because they wanted to.

I said this on jeff's thread about the greatest British boxers, but I will say it again. If someone has a genuine and heartfelt reason for voting for someone, then so be it. There is a really nice mix of knowledge on here and that makes the forum work. Some people might not have the time to enter into deep research about fighters, so they judge on what they know, absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Calling it a 'sad reflection' on the forum is both untrue and unhelpful. As a moderator you should be encouraging everyones opinions and not fostering some sort of elitist club which is where that kind of attitude will lead.

I have commented to you before, Oxy, that I really enjoy your posts. Most of them are erudite, beautifully crafted, interesting and you clearly have an outstanding grasp of the English language. Having said that, and I don't know if Az has truly rattled your cage or something, but recently you are a few posts away from being pompous.

Got to agree think the forum has lost its sense of humour a little bit recently on the boxing bit. I have found myself going elsewhere as it just seems its all petty arguments and patronising each other in every other post.

two_tone wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:2. Why have 5 people voted for Lennox Lewis?
3. Why has 1 person voted for Wlad - with no-one interested in Ted "kid" Lewis?

Seems a sad reflection of the interests of the forum.

2. Because they wanted to.
3. Because they wanted to.

I said this on jeff's thread about the greatest British boxers, but I will say it again. If someone has a genuine and heartfelt reason for voting for someone, then so be it. There is a really nice mix of knowledge on here and that makes the forum work. Some people might not have the time to enter into deep research about fighters, so they judge on what they know, absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Calling it a 'sad reflection' on the forum is both untrue and unhelpful. As a moderator you should be encouraging everyones opinions and not fostering some sort of elitist club which is where that kind of attitude will lead.

I have commented to you before, Oxy, that I really enjoy your posts. Most of them are erudite, beautifully crafted, interesting and you clearly have an outstanding grasp of the English language. Having said that, and I don't know if Az has truly rattled your cage or something, but recently you are a few posts away from being pompous.

Got to agree think the forum has lost its sense of humour a little bit recently on the boxing bit. I have found myself going elsewhere as it just seems its all petty arguments and patronising each other in every other post.

I'd agree I've not been on the forum much lately because of all the petty squabbles and lack of a sense of humour from a few regulars. Like has been said above their is guys on here who have outstanding knowledge of the sport who I've learnt some stuff from but far to many smart @rses who are more interested in grammar than the actual point being made.

Ouch.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Ouch.

I wasn't talking about you mate. Your grammar is as bad as mine and Waingros.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

two_tone wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:2. Why have 5 people voted for Lennox Lewis?
3. Why has 1 person voted for Wlad - with no-one interested in Ted "kid" Lewis?

Seems a sad reflection of the interests of the forum.

2. Because they wanted to.
3. Because they wanted to.

I said this on jeff's thread about the greatest British boxers, but I will say it again. If someone has a genuine and heartfelt reason for voting for someone, then so be it. There is a really nice mix of knowledge on here and that makes the forum work. Some people might not have the time to enter into deep research about fighters, so they judge on what they know, absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Calling it a 'sad reflection' on the forum is both untrue and unhelpful. As a moderator you should be encouraging everyones opinions and not fostering some sort of elitist club which is where that kind of attitude will lead.

I have commented to you before, Oxy, that I really enjoy your posts. Most of them are erudite, beautifully crafted, interesting and you clearly have an outstanding grasp of the English language. Having said that, and I don't know if Az has truly rattled your cage or something, but recently you are a few posts away from being pompous.

Got to agree think the forum has lost its sense of humour a little bit recently on the boxing bit. I have found myself going elsewhere as it just seems its all petty arguments and patronising each other in every other post.

I'd agree I've not been on the forum much lately because of all the petty squabbles and lack of a sense of humour from a few regulars. Like has been said above their is guys on here who have outstanding knowledge of the sport who I've learnt some stuff from but far to many smart @rses who are more interested in grammar than the actual point being made.

Well said guys. Just recently we've had far to much petty squabbling/point scoring, mostly from two regular posters, the recent 'Wbc say no to Haye vs Vitali' article being main culprit, which imo went on way to long & quite possably should've been moved to off topic where they could discuss English law. This sort of thing definately puts people off contrabuting & has probably driven a couple of decent guys away.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:To*

I have edited it for you, Alex, my little HR friend.

Oxy clearly has a greater grasp of the English language than me.

*than I...

I suspect I owe a bit of an apology. Having been away for a week for various family reasons and returned to find the "on this day" section - the only section of the forum that was transparently an honest endeavour and a great collaborative effort - had died a death due to lack of interest. Further, the only active debate on the site was the Haye-Chisora assault thread - where, almost unbelievably, I witnessed someone actually claim that punching someone because Chisora walked up to him was self defence and that anyone who thought differently was a "Mother Teresa" figure.

The opinion, of course - I could well live with - after all - we had D4 for a year. Remember him putting Manny Pacquiao top of the "Greatest ever Latino fighters poll?". Its more that it took 10 pages of debate to do so - whilst the on this day section was left unloved and friendless.

Finally - in an early post on either this or the Greatest British fighter article - to find the suggestion that anyone who voted for an "Old time" fighter was doing so to appear clever.

I have not wasted hours of my medical training reading biographies of "old time" boxers to appear knowledgeable. Percy Jones' weight troubles seldom afford me an opportunity to show off in conversation. So - when I find old time boxers dismissed - I suspect that I lost patience.

Whilst I have written my reasons for my irritation - I still should have avoided losing my patience - so, I do publicly apologise and withdraw the above post.

If you did vote for Lennox Lewis - whilst I will respectfully think you outstandingly wrong, I will not question your right to be so.

No need for an apology Oxy, I agreed with everything you said 100%.

oxring wrote:

Whilst I have written my reasons for my irritation - I still should have avoided losing my patience - so, I do publicly apologise and withdraw the above post.

If you did vote for Lennox Lewis - whilst I will respectfully think you outstandingly wrong, I will not question your right to be so.

Good man, Oxy.

Oh, and for the record, I voted for Wilde.

I voted for Wilde but I actually think it was Benny Lynch. Such a shame his life and reign were cut short by alcohol. If you watch videos of him his footwork and movement are so far ahead of their time. He was a unique fighter.

Cerdan will probably feel a bit hard done by to only get one vote - and Benvenuti deserves a bit more appreciation!

However - Driscoll, Lynch, Lewis (kid), Wilde - in terms of skillset - were all absolutely fabulous boxers.

Wilde is helped by Tunney's praise - and Tunney was seldom that fulsome in his praise of old timer fighters. So when Gene called him the finest fighter he ever saw - I take some notice.

Its one of those where personal favourites will always colour choices, however.
_______________________
It is also irrelevant, because Richie Woodhall would of kayod em all FACT. Especially Cerdan and LHW Carpentier.

I must confess to being very confused by the voting.

Lennox Lewis the greatest british fighter is behind Wilde for greatest european fighter?

Kosta Tszyu could really be considered even though he lives in Australia. Back in 97 i was in Australia and i live on Napolean Street in Sans Souci, the very same street Tszyu lived on. I saw him many times at the shops and even then he was unable to speak a word of English but that didnt stop the Aussies as claiming him 'one of theirs'