606 v2 6 nations player of the tournament - initial shortlist

As suggested by Biltongbek the top 10 in this poll will go into next week's 606 v2 6 nations player of the tournament voted by you.

Please tell me if you believe I have left anyone out.

Multi choice is allowed so the top 10 are chosen. Anyone you think deserves to be there say so. The highest 10 will make the short list.

Whilst they have not put in a singularly outstanding performance, both Dan Cole and Alex Corbisiero have been a huge part of England's defensive effort and have 90% of the time held their own in the scrum against some tough opponents.

i would personally like to see both of them on that list.

Fair enough Ozzy. Not sure how to edit polls though. You make a good case but I didn't want to include too many England players.

If you go into edit your post you should be able to do it. if not I can do it for you as I have moderator access. Let me know if you need anyone adding at any point.

Ozzy3213 wrote:If you go into edit your post you should be able to do it. if not I can do it for you as I have moderator access. Let me know if you need anyone adding at any point.

Ozzie, only Mods can edit polls

I've added Cole and Corbs, apologies for any spelling errors

Fascists!

Ooh, the power I have but never knew I had!

In Portnoy-spirit, should we decide whether you lot can edit polls by committee?!

Not too sure who I would pick so i went for a few. Halfpenny, Jon Davies, Denton, Farrel, Fofana, and Bowe. I would not be too upset if any of those won it as they have all been key players this tournament.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:In Portnoy-spirit, should we decide whether you lot can edit polls by committee?!

Maybe you should start a poll about it.

not sure why we are allowed multiple votes? I have a feeling that this will dull the objectivity that posters are after and potentially encourage national bias?

beshocked,

You got no Warburton on there???

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:not sure why we are allowed multiple votes? I have a feeling that this will dull the objectivity that posters are after and potentially encourage national bias?

Possibly, but Richie Gray is out in front at present so unless we've had a sudden influx of Scotsmen onto the board I'm guessing others have voted for him. (I have by the way).

He's only played 2 games so far, Pete?

Yeah, I know, just considering the fact that in each game I have seen him he has been outstanding.

For me Richie Gray, Ross Rennie, Brad Barritt, Dan Lydiate and Jonathan Davies have all been outstanding. Steven Ferris (even in light of press comments!) and Tom Croft could make it to the final poll after this weekends games.

Jeebus, next you'll be wanting Tom Croft on there!! Oh, he is!!

If I've already voted, but have changed my mind, how would I recast my vote?

For me has to be Richie Gray and not just because I'm Scottish. e has been fantastic in the line out, carried well, made his tackles and got his 1st try in a Scotland shirt. He has been consistant and done us all proud. I just hope he knows what he is doing by joining Sale Sharks next year.

I know stats don't tell the whole story but :

Meters Ran : Eng 53 + Wal 37 + Fra 10 + Ire 54 = 154m
Clean Breaks : Eng 1 + Wal 1 + Ire 1 = 3
Defenders Beaten : Eng 1 + Wal 2 + Ire 3 = 6
Tackles Made/Missed : Eng 7/0 + Wal 8/0 + Fra 10/0 + Ire 8/0 = 33
Lineouts won/lost : Eng 7/0 + Wal 4/0 + Fra 2/0 + Ire 5/0 = 18
Lineouts Disrupted : Eng 2 + Wal 3 + Fra 1 + Ire 2 = 8

So Gray has made 33 tackles and missed none in this 6N
Has carried the ball 154 meters
Beaten 6 men including skinning Kearney (that was a beauty btw)
Never lost a lineout ball thrown to him and disrupted 8 opposition line outs.

Easy one for me.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Fascists!

go on mate, you tell them.

biltongbek wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Fascists!

go on mate, you tell them.

Only cos you're right behind me - oh hang on a minute ...

Ozzy3213 wrote:Ooh, the power I have but never knew I had!

Yeah, i have to fight it to control myself all the time, and I have only been here for a week. Have you ever wondered what will happen if one of us go rogue on this forum.

It'll take months to clean up the mess.

Ozzy add Warburton if you want. I didn't because he's only played two gmaes. Plus I didn't want Welsh and English nominees to swamp the rest.


Aslongasbut100ofus I put multi votes so people can vote for those they want to make 10.

E.g. Richie Gray will likely be top but someone like Fofana might need the extra multi votes to make the top 10.

Yes it is open to abuse but at least in theory the top 10 everyone prefers should get the most.

Also you need more votes when's there's a lot of names.

You seem to have made a mistake, i can't seem to vote for Robshaw....

He's clearly been the tournaments best player, captaining England to three away wins, and beating France in Paris for the first time in like 10 games. H was also the the stand out English player in the defeat to Wales. His work-rate has been phenomenal and he has taken to international rugby like a duck to water.

How he was ignored by MJ is a mystery to me.

biltongbek wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Ooh, the power I have but never knew I had!

Yeah, i have to fight it to control myself all the time, and I have only been here for a week. Have you ever wondered what will happen if one of us go rogue on this forum.

It'll take months to clean up the mess.

We thought you already had ...

in the spirit of the thing I voted for a shortlist of ten:
Halfpenny
Cuthbert
Adam Jones
Farrell
Cole
Gray
Denton
Kearney
Parisse
Harinordoquy

If I had to vote for one it would be Gray

Gray, Rennie and Kearney for me.

Just seen the official list (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17359782)

Alex Cuthbert
Dan Lydiate
David Denton
Donnacha Ryan
Imanol Harinordoquy
Jonny Sexton
Julien Malzieu
Mike Phillips
Ross Rennie
Sam Warburton
Sergio Parisse
Yoann Maestri

4 Welsh, 3 French, 2 Irish, 2 Scottish and 1 Italian. England the only country not represented. Pretty impressive that they managed to get 2nd in the table with one match to play with no one playing well! Not sure what more Gray and Dusotoir could have done to make the list...

Using the most up to date statistical analysis possible at the moment, i.e. from what I can remember from the games I've seen, stand out performers so far for me are;

Dan Lydiate
Alex Cuthburt
Richie Gray
Ross Rennie
Dave Denton
Wesley Fofana

Honourable mentions to Kearney, Barritt & Parisse.

So far the top 10 consist of:

Richie Gray - 15 votes
Leigh Halfpenny - 10 votes
Owen Farrell - 10 votes
Dave Denton - 9 votes
Rob Kearney - 9 votes
Dan Lydiate - 8 votes
Jonathan Davies -8 votes
Wesley Fofana - 8 votes
Tommy Bowe - 7 votes
Sergio Parisse - 7 votes

Can't really argue with that so far. Just shows that this voting system is working well.

Ferris, Kearney and Rennie have been the standout players for me. O'Connell too up until his injury. Sexton and Farrell are honourable mentions.

Kearney is probably the only player who has stood out in every game.

Theres a lot of strange choices:

Davies was outplayed by Tuiligi.
Fofana has been rubbish bar his tries.
The scottish backrow have been beasted by France and Ireland.
Gray was outplayed by Irelands 3rd choice lock and can't ruck or scrummage.
Bowe has done more in 4 games than Ashton in 5 last year when he was player of the tournament and still doesn't deserve to be on the list.

beshocked wrote:So far the top 10 consist of:

Richie Gray - 15 votes
Leigh Halfpenny - 10 votes
Owen Farrell - 10 votes
Dave Denton - 9 votes
Rob Kearney - 9 votes
Dan Lydiate - 8 votes
Jonathan Davies -8 votes
Wesley Fofana - 8 votes
Tommy Bowe - 7 votes
Sergio Parisse - 7 votes

Can't really argue with that so far. Just shows that this voting system is working well.

I think that is quite a fair reflection of the best players thus far.

roddersm wrote:Ferris, Kearney and Rennie have been the standout players for me. O'Connell too up until his injury. Sexton and Farrell are honourable mentions.

Kearney is probably the only player who has stood out in every game.

Theres a lot of strange choices:

Davies was outplayed by Tuiligi.
Fofana has been rubbish bar his tries.
The scottish backrow have been beasted by France and Ireland.
Gray was outplayed by Irelands 3rd choice lock and can't ruck or scrummage.Bowe has done more in 4 games than Ashton in 5 last year when he was player of the tournament and still doesn't deserve to be on the list.

Strange post, you mention Scotland's backrow have been beasted by France and Ireland but continue to mention that Rennie has been a stand out performer. I would agree that the balance of our backrow has been thrown off by Robinson's mental decision making.

As for Gray being "outplayed" by Ireland's third choice lock, I'm not sure you were watching the same game I was. They both disrupted each other's line outs but you can't say either out played the other without giving reasons to justify your opinion. Ryan in no way outplayed Gray in the game against Ireland and to say Gray can't scrummage is unfair. Both of our props have been in poor form this year and were in my mind the reason our scrum looked bad.

Rodders I don't normaly expect hyperbole from you!

roddersm wrote:Ferris, Kearney and Rennie have been the standout players for me. O'Connell too up until his injury. Sexton and Farrell are honourable mentions.

Kearney is probably the only player who has stood out in every game.

Theres a lot of strange choices:

Davies was outplayed by Tuiligi.
Fofana has been rubbish bar his tries.
The scottish backrow have been beasted by France and Ireland.
Gray was outplayed by Irelands 3rd choice lock and can't ruck or scrummage.
Bowe has done more in 4 games than Ashton in 5 last year when he was player of the tournament and still doesn't deserve to be on the list.

Jeebus you talk some nonsense at times, rodders

Look perhaps I've exaggerated a bit to emphasise the point.

Donnacha Ryan was motm and pinched two key scottish lineouts, one of which led to a try.

Gray is a fantastic carrier but his body angles hitting rucks are poor. Hes a very good player but I think theres a bit of hype there at the minute and he's not the finished article. I think he'll be the best around but not yet.

Rennie has been the standout 7 but I maintain that the scottish backrow were outplayed by Ireland and far too slow to the breakdown against England and France. Denton has carried very well and caught the eye but like Grey the basics have not been good enough.

roddersm wrote:Look perhaps I've exaggerated a bit to emphasise the point.

Donnacha Ryan was motm and pinched two key scottish lineouts, one of which led to a try.

Gray is a fantastic carrier but his body angles hitting rucks are poor. Hes a very good player but I think theres a bit of hype there at the minute and he's not the finished article. I think he'll be the best around but not yet.

Rennie has been the standout 7 but I maintain that the scottish backrow were outplayed by Ireland and far too slow to the breakdown against England and France. Denton has carried very well and caught the eye but like Grey the basics have not been good enough.

rodders, I can only suggest that you watch the match again - take out Ferris, the man is INCREDIBLE, and the Scottish back row outrucked and outtackled their Irish equivalents - I didn't see it at the time, but poor O'Mahoney in the first half was struggling to adjust to the pace of the game, altho he had a much better second half.

Hmm ok sure I'll watch it again. I saw O'Mahoney pinch at least one ball and Ferris was the standout player from either side on first watching.

I still maintain the Scottish backrow and side in general were too slow to the breakdown against England and France. They didn't commit numbers and in my opinion its the main reason they lost both games. Gray and Denton in particular were guilty of looking to carry rather than clear out on numerous occaisions, when Rennie was struggling to secure the ball and Blair/cusiter were getting scragged.

roddersm wrote:Hmm ok sure I'll watch it again. I saw O'Mahoney pinch at least one ball and Ferris was the standout player from either side on first watching.

I still maintain the Scottish backrow and side in general were too slow to the breakdown against England and France. They didn't commit numbers and in my opinion its the main reason they lost both games. Gray and Denton in particular were guilty of looking to carry rather than clear out on numerous occaisions, when Rennie was struggling to secure the ball and Blair/cusiter were getting scragged.

After the first 20 minutes when we could hardly get hold of the ball, I thought the Scottish backrow was outplayed for long stretches. That said I think the performance of Ferris probably bathes O'Mahony and Heaslip in a better light than they deserve. I cannot believe to be honest that Ferris isn't running away with this vote. For me he has been the best player in the competition. Even from a purly Irish point of view it is astonishing that Bowe and Kearney have more votes than him so far, never mind many other players on the list.

To be perfectly honest Ferris is playing as well as, if not even better than, Sean O'Brien was last season, when he was deservedly HEC player of the season.

He's had about 4 quiet games, for province and counry, since he returned from injury last July. The rest of the time hes been monsterous.

I've said Ferris (good in 3 out of 4 games, decent in first game, with some great carries and I think he makes Ireland team work at the moment), Bowe (stuff form, his tries have kept Ireland in several games), Kearney and Halfpenny (get fullbacks, both instrumental in their teams' attack and defence), Cuthbert (think he has done more all around than North this 6N), Barritt (has actually been fine distributing, made hard yards forward, been involved in several nice moves and tackled like a demon. Not so much a Rock as a Mountain in defence) and Rennie who has been class except for that butchered try, but as Fofana and Scott Williams also discovered, Foden is not that easy to beat as last man and you cannot afford to delay the pass!

Actually I've take back what I said about Gray. He does deserve to be on there.

roddersm wrote:Hmm ok sure I'll watch it again. I saw O'Mahoney pinch at least one ball and Ferris was the standout player from either side on first watching.

I still maintain the Scottish backrow and side in general were too slow to the breakdown against England and France. They didn't commit numbers and in my opinion its the main reason they lost both games. Gray and Denton in particular were guilty of looking to carry rather than clear out on numerous occaisions, when Rennie was struggling to secure the ball and Blair/cusiter were getting scragged.

I do think Gray sometimes gets this wrong however apart from that he has been magnificent in a loosing team - and thats always hard to do

roddersm wrote:To be perfectly honest Ferris is playing as well as, if not even better than, Sean O'Brien was last season, when he was deservedly HEC player of the season.

He's had about 4 quiet games, for province and counry, since he returned from injury last July. The rest of the time hes been monsterous.

Well two things will count against him. 1) He's from Ulster. God might be an Ulsterman, but try telling that to you southerners! 2) A Welsh Grandslam. Now this isn't Welsh bashing in any regard. They have played well below what they are capable of on a limited gameplan and have still won all their games including in Dublin and Twickenham. That for me is a sign of a really good team in the making. This is their first year of their cycle and no doubt Gatland and his coaching staff will start expanding their tactics and attacking play and they could turn into a genuinely excellent team, not the peaks and troughs of Welsh rugby of the previous decade. That said, who has played outstandingly well in this team? Halfpenny has been solid but not as good as Kearney. Lyidate gets alot of praise from the Welsh fans but I think that Ryan Jones and Tipuric have been better, never mind Ferris. North was excellent against Ireland buy largely quiet since. Cuthbert for me has been their best player. More intelligent and a better footballer than North, he runs good lines of attack, seems to be able to vary his game more and is better when chasing the oppositions kicking game towards his own line. I am a big fan.

Onto the Sean O'Brien comment. Couldn't agree more. O'Brien has to some extent 'been found out' by the opposition and they have more closely marked him out of games and stopped him making as many big carries. That he has continued to do it for Leinster, though less than last season, is a credit to him. In the international arena he has been disappointing. I said it after the World Cup, for me he has had two games in a green shirt that stack up against his Leinster performances- against England and against Australia. I have been pretty disappointed with him otherwise. He is an excellent, destructive ball carrier yet they are trying to turn him into a makeshift 7. David Wallace could do it as he has a genuine rugby brain. I'm not sure O'Brien has that. He is young though so he has time on his side, but he is being wasted for Ireland.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
Well two things will count against him. 1) He's from Ulster. God might be an Ulsterman, but try telling that to you southerners!

err.... I'm not a southerner...

Also I didn't mean my comment as a criticism of O'Brien, who I'm a huge fan off. However Ferris by comparison has got relatively little recognition for his performances compared to other outstanding contemporaries who've shown comparable form in recent seasons like SOB or Warburton.

roddersm wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
Well two things will count against him. 1) He's from Ulster. God might be an Ulsterman, but try telling that to you southerners!

err.... I'm not a southerner...

Also I didn't mean my comment as a criticism of O'Brien, who I'm a huge fan off. However Ferris by comparison has got relatively little recognition for his performances compared to other outstanding contemporaries who've shown comparable form in recent seasons like SOB or Warburton.

I know that. I was just pointing my Orange Presbyterian finger at the rest of them.

Davies was outplayed by Tuiligi.
Fofana has been rubbish bar his tries.
The scottish backrow have been beasted by France and Ireland.
Gray was outplayed by Irelands 3rd choice lock and can't ruck or scrummage.
Bowe has done more in 4 games than Ashton in 5 last year when he was player of the tournament and still doesn't deserve to be on the list.

I'm not sure which of there are more fairytale?

Davies 'outplayed' by Tuilagi, obviously so by all those line breaks, tries scored, and try assists he got, and that solid defencive effort.
Fofana has been far from rubbish, infact he's carried the French threat throughout most of the tourny.
I'd say the Scot back row are an area of strength atm, Rennie and Denton have not been outplayed by anyone so far.
Gray outplayed by Ryan? stealing a lineout doesn't mean he outplayed him, Gray is the most athletic loc in the tourny, carries, tackles, cover tackles, and does the dirty work, player of the tourny by far and away!
Bowes form is good but he hasn't emuilated Ashtons of last year yet, he has scored what 4? Ashton is joint record holder after last season and as much as I don't like to admit it was the form winger last year comfortably.

Bowe has scored 5. Two against Wales and France and one against Italy. That more than equal Ashton in my book and one more against England and he has the record.

Donnacha Ryan was motm against Scotland so I'm not the only person who thought he outplayed him. As I've stated above Gray should be on the list.

Tuilagi outplayed Davies when they went head to head, I didn't mean across the tournament only that Davies wasn't great against England.

roddersm wrote:
Donnacha Ryan was motm against Scotland so I'm not the only person who thought he outplayed him. As I've stated above Gray should be on the list.

I put this into context by asking the question, do I think Donnacha Ryan could displace Richie Gray from the Scotland team. Answer NO! He had a good game but he is not a better player than Gray and to even think for a second that he is a better player is life through some very green tinted spectacles.

Ferris was Irelands best player on Saturday by a considerable distance and the best player on the park by more. Gray was Scotlands best player and he does what a lock should do.

I don't recall saying that Ryan was better than Gray? I said he outplayed him last weekend, which is a debatable point but not a rediculous one.

He also created Bests try.

Anyways in my opinion the short list is not a great reflection of the standout players of the tournament , but thats like... just my opinion man