Wales Onwards and Upwards

So Wales win their 3rd Grand Slam in 8 Years and the press go wild comparing them to the team of the 70s. The problem with that perception is that the consistency is not teh same, Wales in the 70s only won 3 grand slams but they won the championship 7 times and shared the title once Wales are not at that level of dominance at the moment.

After 2005 the team fell apart, the players believed their hype and did not kick on and improve. The dire results in 2006-2007 were not simply the fault of Gareth Jenkins although he must bear a lot of the blame. The players were indisciplined and its notable that as soon as a disciplinarian arrived the welsh players performed again. Again after 2008 though the welsh team was unable to move forward. The 2008 side were aging and lacked strength in depth and Wales struggled with injuries in 09-10. The tour to NZ in 2010 was a real watershed for the side. Gatts took a relatively young squad to the SH and whilst they were hammered in the first test the difference in the second was palpable. After that tour Gatts brought in these youngsters and greadually jettisoned the class of 2005/08.

The challenge for Wales is to kick on and challenge the SH and there are a number of positives for us now that we can take forward but we are far from the finished article.

The Forwards are solid and will cause problems against any team in world rugby. Adam Jones the cornerstone of the Welsh front row however still doesnt have anyone at his level to step in if he gets injured. I would like to have seen Mitchell get some gametime against Italy to help his development. We now have four international class locks. I dont think I have been able to say that for 25 years and hopefully the big weakness in the welsh forwards can now be addressed with monsters like Charteris and Evans in tandom at second row. The backrow balance is good and there is enough in this welsh 8 to expect parity in possession against anyone.

The backs are big strong and powerful but in the last three games they have been conservative, closed down by teams more concerned with damage control than by taking the welsh on. The backs need to remember that sometimes avoiding contact is better than bish bash bosh. Too often in the last 3 games they have looked for contact. However all of the welsh tries have been scored by the backline 10 in all and that demonstrates just how potent they can become. Phillips pass is still a weakness and Priestlands tactical game can blow hot and cold. Yesterday it was good in other games this year he has been dire. Its really up to Tovey to challenge Priestland which with his move to the Blues I expect to happen. We still lack creativity in the midfield but yesterday Roberts showed he isnt always one dimensional. In North and Cuthbert we have two wingers who need quick ball in space and they will wreak havoc in any defensive line.

The challenge for this welsh side is to deal with expectation and a tactical approach by the opposition designed to stifle the welsh attack. Against the Australians though we are likely to get a different approach. I cant see Deans sending out a side designed to keep the score down, the Australians will send a side out who will tray and stretch this welsh team. As they have beaten us twice already this season, Maybe France would have been better if they had come at us and tried to run our massive backs around.

All in all there are a lot of positives but lets not get carried away, the team is only at the start of a journey that will take us up to 2015 yet abother grand slam is worthless unless we actually fullfill the potential. I would say a B+ so far for our results and performances, A win against Aus would see us get to an A for results and performance. A series win down under is however what we have to aim for. If we achieve that then I will be a very happy bunny.

A good post but no Grand Slam is worthless, the Grand Slam is more important than the World Cup to a lot of Welsh people, me included.

Personally I'd prefer to rest the World Cup players for the Australia tour and give others a chance. Players like Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins and Ryan Jones will need to be used carefully if we want them to last.

AlynDavies wrote:A good post but no Grand Slam is worthless, the Grand Slam is more important than the World Cup to a lot of Welsh people, me included.

Personally I'd prefer to rest the World Cup players for the Australia tour and give others a chance. Players like Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins and Ryan Jones will need to be used carefully if we want them to last.

See I am completly in the opposite camp Alyn. Lets go to oz with the best players available and give them a real run for their money and keep momentum building for the AI. We also need to aim for top four in the rankings so need a win down under desperatly to make that happen. Personally being best in the world is more important than being best in the Northern hemispere.

Gatland's quote
"They are excellent professionals and they make our job as coaches easy as they do more than what we expect and what is required, and when you have players doing that and looking after themselves and doing all the extras it goes a long way to making us coaches look good."


That's the difference in this present side they are now far more professional in their attitude.

TycroesOsprey wrote:See I am completly in the opposite camp Alyn. Lets go to oz with the best players available and give them a real run for their money and keep momentum building for the AI. We also need to aim for top four in the rankings so need a win down under desperatly to make that happen. Personally being best in the world is more important than being best in the Northern hemispere.

I really don't care about end of the season Mickey Mouse tours, with Australia under cooked and Wales in pieces from a long hard season.

Wales normally are forced to send a squad of kids on these tours and give them a chance of international rugby.

This year it's important that we do tour with our first choice players due to the fact that ranking positions in December will count towards the WC

TycroesOsprey wrote:
See I am completly in the opposite camp Alyn. Lets go to oz with the best players available and give them a real run for their money and keep momentum building for the AI. We also need to aim for top four in the rankings so need a win down under desperatly to make that happen. Personally being best in the world is more important than being best in the Northern hemispere.

Agre with you 100%,winning the 6 Nations is a great achievment but it proves nothing unless you back it up.From an Irish perspective we won one in 2009 and since then have stagnated so that victory has really lost some of it's gloss as we never kicked on.

Wales need to be competitive in all 3 matches on tour and get one win,they should also be challenging for the 6N title every year.

Yeah but this tour isnt your usual end of season tour is it. The format is changed, we have three games and a couple of warmups Ithink. Honestly a series win down under would be the pinnacle of the year rugbywise. It would be much more of an achievement than winning yet another grand slam or six nations title.

The players are gonna be exhausted by the start of the next season though. Especially guys like Roberts, Adam J and Faletau

Gatland will have to manage the players well. Some of them have played a year straight of rugby! some of these guys will need a break

Wales do not currently have the level of international dominance we had in the seventies and the quality of our depth of players is not as good. But we are currently in the best position we have been since then.

It's been a good six nations, we have a young and talented squad, we won and we introduced new players that showed up really well.

Now we have to push on, this just the start there is still a lot of work to do, players to find and talent to bring in effectively.

We won't beat the SH teams quite yet but we are getting closer every year.

gowales

I tend to agree, and for me this is part of our problem. We don't have the positions available to blood enough youngsters, so on these tours we tend to rest the key players and take the fringe players. After a full season and an int comp the players are generally carrying knocks and have had or are injured, touring in the summer break just is too much for me, we don't want to be forced into making debutants replace the injured mid tournament.

I would love to send a fully fit fully firing down under, but the demands on the body are huge, and whos to say they ever recover with a mere few weeks off before the season restarts. I'm not just talking about games but training demands!

If we had an A team we could send a stronger squad down under instead of kids, or if we send a first team we need to look at resting them in the autumn. Either way we need more top class players to compete on all fronts!

for the record I'd send a team of...

James
Owens
Mitchell
Davies
Charteris
Shinglar
Tipuric
Ryan Jones
Phillips
Hook
Stoddart
JD2
Williams
Brew
Byrne

But would definately give plenty of gametime to

Gill
Hibbard
Reed
Mccusker
Lloyd Williams
Tovey
Liam Williams

For me the biggest problem we have is the younger boys generally only tour with younger boys, I think playing with the likes of Byrne, Hook, Ryan Jones will rub off on the younger boys, not to mention the likes of Phillips, Charteris, Davies, Stoddart and Brew who have all toured before numerous times. It would be a great experience for the young bench/starters and in a competitive atmosphere. Ok I can't see that team beating oz, but they won't be far off, and for me it will tell us where the younger boys, and the older heads are in terms of their starting counterparts.

These boys have had, wc warm ups, then wc, then rabo, test v aus, heineken, 6 nations, now back to rab and hein, and then they going on Aus tour.

Surely this is too much? to be fair im no expert so maybe they can(and repeat again every year).

As much as I want to see Wales win, id prefer to watch good players play good rugby and have long careers. To me success wouldnt be to see a W in the history books at the expense of our players welfare.

Players I want to see pushed hard for top honours are:-

Joe Rees Tighthead Prop Ospreys
Rhodri Jones
Ken Owens
McCauley Cook
Tuperic
Nalvidi
Lewis Evans dragons flanker
Keiran Murphy
Mcusker
Turnbull
Tavis Knoyle
Jason Tovey
Steffano Jones
Ashley Beck
Scott Williams
Owen Williams (Center in the sevens squad)
Liam Williams

Agreed bluesman and kingjohn.

The amount of rugby some of the boys have played is ridiculous. I worry though because we might be forced into taking a full strength side because of the SANZAR nations lobbying.

I would like all players with any signs of injury to get the summer off and have a full pre season with their clubs, including the players that have played in all the games thus far.
Roberts in particular needs to get his body right.

gowales wrote:Agreed bluesman and kingjohn.

The amount of rugby some of the boys have played is ridiculous. I worry though because we might be forced into taking a full strength side because of the SANZAR nations lobbying.

I would like all players with any signs of injury to get the summer off and have a full pre season with their clubs, including the players that have played in all the games thus far.
Roberts in particular needs to get his body right.

The main part of the sick note list is likely to be

Roberts
Warburton
Gethin

It's not that long a career and if they maintain their fitness level they should be OK.
Rugby players do get a lot of time off.

We do need to go their trying to get a forth spot in the IRB rankings ready for the RWC 2015. Two away wins over the ozzies would likely secure that as I can't see any of e other contenders like England, Ireland or France standing much of a chance down south this summer.

Main people I want to see rested:

Roberts
Lydiate (that's a crazy amount of strapping he has on his ankle)
Warburton
Priestland (especially him, he's not been fit since after the QF in the RWC)

I have a feeling all 4 of them need ops, and I'd rather that happen this summer and they can then get a full pre-season in.

Cymroglan wrote:It's not that long a career and if they maintain their fitness level they should be OK.
Rugby players do get a lot of time off.

Southern Hemisphere players get a lot more though.

maestegmafia wrote:We do need to go their trying to get a forth spot in the IRB rankings ready for the RWC 2015. Two away wins over the ozzies would likely secure that as I can't see any of e other contenders like England, Ireland or France standing much of a chance down south this summer.

The problem Wales have is that two away wins over Oz is very optimistic,the last two times you played them they won at a canter and neither time did they have home advantage.I can see some reasons to think Wales might get one win but two looks beyond them at the minute I think.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:We do need to go their trying to get a forth spot in the IRB rankings ready for the RWC 2015. Two away wins over the ozzies would likely secure that as I can't see any of e other contenders like England, Ireland or France standing much of a chance down south this summer.

The problem Wales have is that two away wins over Oz is very optimistic,the last two times you played them they won at a canter and neither time did they have home advantage.I can see some reasons to think Wales might get one win but two looks beyond them at the minute I think.

Rwc Wales 18 - 21 Australia

Ms Wales 18 - 24 Australia

Wales have matured quite a bit since the RWC, I think we are a better team. Whether it is optimistic or not, we do have to aim to win the series and to guaranty a forth spot in the IRB rankings to make our chances of a decent pool in the 2015 RWC easier.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:We do need to go their trying to get a forth spot in the IRB rankings ready for the RWC 2015. Two away wins over the ozzies would likely secure that as I can't see any of e other contenders like England, Ireland or France standing much of a chance down south this summer.

The problem Wales have is that two away wins over Oz is very optimistic,the last two times you played them they won at a canter and neither time did they have home advantage.I can see some reasons to think Wales might get one win but two looks beyond them at the minute I think.

Well if you think Wales can beat them once then there is no reason why two wins should be beyond them.

maestegmafia wrote:
Rwc Wales 18 - 21 Australia

Ms Wales 18 - 24 Australia

Wales have matured quite a bit since the RWC, I think we are a better team. Whether it is optimistic or not, we do have to aim to win the series and to guaranty a forth spot in the IRB rankings to make our chances of a decent pool in the 2015 RWC easier.

Late tries for Wales in both games made it respectable but if you actually watched the games you'd know Oz won pulling up.

80 min game

Cymroglan wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:We do need to go their trying to get a forth spot in the IRB rankings ready for the RWC 2015. Two away wins over the ozzies would likely secure that as I can't see any of e other contenders like England, Ireland or France standing much of a chance down south this summer.

The problem Wales have is that two away wins over Oz is very optimistic,the last two times you played them they won at a canter and neither time did they have home advantage.I can see some reasons to think Wales might get one win but two looks beyond them at the minute I think.

Well if you think Wales can beat them once then there is no reason why two wins should be beyond them.

Not really I think Wales have a chance to beat them once but wouldn't be shocked if ended 3-0 to Oz,I don't mean any disrespect to Wales but unless Oz lose some key players to injury I don't think they can win the series.

True we never looked like winning either of those games. I think we could if we have our first choice team but that is highly unlikely.

They need to sort out the global rugby calendar this is just ridiculous now!

Cymroglan wrote:80 min game

Well if that's your argument then you still lost both games,one at home and one on neutral territory whatmakes you think you can suddenly win 2 out of 3 away from home.

Ireland beat them so why cant Wales do it ?

Fatigue

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:80 min game

Well if that's your argument then you still lost both games,one at home and one on neutral territory whatmakes you think you can suddenly win 2 out of 3 away from home.

What's so sudden about it?

The series is in the summer, we last played Australia last year. Since then we have played five games, bloodied new players and improved as a team.

It is more important than anything else to welsh rugby to win this series, so I imagine we will be very focused.

You might as well have called that an Ireland home game as well!

Cymroglan wrote:Ireland beat them so why cant Wales do it ?

Well I'll concede that if both Stephen Moore and David Pocock are injured (unlikely) and it pours down rain in Oz (even more unlikely) I'll give Wales a good shot.That's why Ireland beat Oz.

kingjohn7 wrote:These boys have had, wc warm ups, then wc, then rabo, test v aus, heineken, 6 nations, now back to rab and hein, and then they going on Aus tour.

Surely this is too much? to be fair im no expert so maybe they can(and repeat again every year).

As much as I want to see Wales win, id prefer to watch good players play good rugby and have long careers. To me success wouldnt be to see a W in the history books at the expense of our players welfare.

Don't you think this is where the balance of management should take place?

Usually in any calendar year players will play no more than 14 tests.

I am not sure how many tests the six Nations countries have played but my guess is 3 warm up matches, 5-7 RWC matches, wales hade an extra one in november and now 5 Six nation matches, so thus far you count 17 test matches in 6 months. Not sure how many club games these guys would have played, but Tim Noakes well known SA sport scientist suggested the maximum minutes a player should play per year is roughly 1600 minutes. Now these guys are already close to that.

It would make sense to me that Rugby Unions should remove their international sqaud from All other matches and have these guys focused and managed solely to perform on the international stage.

Now I know the comeback will be but you are taking a squad of 30 players out of the domestic season, well if you consider injuries, recovery time how much is the domestic scene missing already.

Big lads like Cuthbert and North has loads of potential, but the demand on their bodies may well reduce the length and in some cases the performances of talented players like that.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:Ireland beat them so why cant Wales do it ?

Well I'll concede that if both Stephen Moore and David Pocock are injured (unlikely) and it pours down rain in Oz (even more unlikely) I'll give Wales a good shot.That's why Ireland beat Oz.

Well I'm far more optimistic than you are that this Welsh side will do very well on this tour.

I'm glad I don't have the choice, but we have to decide what is more important, the rest periods for a fair few members of our squad, or taking the chance of trying to beat OZ in their own back yard and avoiding NZ, OZ and SA in the 2015 WC or trying to avoid ENG, IRE, FRA & ARG as I said I wouldn't like to have that decision to make.

Not really sure what the solution is biltong? Taking the squad out of all other games I think would defo be a no go, esp as alot of players will be playing abroad for the clubs. Maybe just having 1 tour a year(like 1 year NH teams go South, then nxt year SH teams go north?)

Wales have used around forty players in and out of their current squad since the first August 2011 pre-world cup warm up match.

Of that squad of forty plus players there are probably ten or so that have played more games than others, that are key players for Wales, our foundation for sure but we are doing a decent job of rotation. There are plenty of good players getting chances and old players getting rest.

Cymroglan wrote:
Well I'm far more optimistic than you are that this Welsh side will do very well on this tour.

I genuinely hope I'm wrong as I'd be delighted to see Wales win the series and prove that the standard of the 6 nations is catching up.

kingjohn7 wrote:Not really sure what the solution is biltong? Taking the squad out of all other games I think would defo be a no go, esp as alot of players will be playing abroad for the clubs. Maybe just having 1 tour a year(like 1 year NH teams go South, then nxt year SH teams go north?)

you might as well kill international rugby then in my view. The problem with that is when does this tour take place that can work both ways?

If it is June it suits us, if it is November it suits you. How do you compromise on that?

We are already compromising on our Currie Cup to accommodate this silly super XV, do we now compromise on our test matches to accommodate management of players sothat the Super XV takes complete presidence?

In my view Test rugby is the top priority, simply becuase that is the platform for nations to compete against one another, it is also the level that pays the most from a broadcaster's perspective. The number being thrown around in the SH is that more than 60% of the Murdoch deal is for tests and then the rest is for the Super XV.

That stands to reason the money makers cannot be compromised on, just take Wales as an example, the Autumn tours are their money makers from what I have been explained.

Somewhere something has gotta give, and I can't see it happening at test level.

Very true biltong

I think Gatland will pick as strong a swuad as possible. There will no doubt be players dropping out with injuries that may require ops. We're in mid march and I'm guessing the summer tour is early June? Well there are only 5 Rabo games left. I'd say a maximum of 2 welsh teams will make the play offs, so that's at most 2 more games and the Blues have a HC game. I can't see them beating Leinster to be honest.I don't think that's a massive amount of rugby before the end of the season and these players will return in mid June and won't play a competitive game until the start of September. I'd imagine that quite a few top players won't really play much rugby for their regions until the HC begins.
I also think the test team will be strong because players won't want to lose their jersey. Charteris was superb in the WC, but has to wait for his chance to try and regain his jersey. The likes of Tipuric will want to stake their claim, as will Ken Owens, Scott Williams and Lloyd Williams to name a few. The competition we have throughout the squad can only bring the best out of these players, because they know that if the slip up, there's somebody else breathing down their neck for their spot.

Wales just aren't a big enough player to indulge in the summer tour nonsense.

We haven't the resources or strength in depth to win a Grand Slam, then take a full side on a meaningless tour, then give everything in the Autumn Internationals.

The SH teams have bags of talent but all the money is in the NH - so we should call the shots.

Scrap the summer tours. Nobody cares and we're on a hiding to nothing.

It should be all about the 6N and the AIs.

Casartelli
Why should the SH sides do all the traveling ? They also want and need these money spinner fixtures.

Casartelli wrote:Wales just aren't a big enough player to indulge in the summer tour nonsense.

We haven't the resources or strength in depth to win a Grand Slam, then take a full side on a meaningless tour, then give everything in the Autumn Internationals.

The SH teams have bags of talent but all the money is in the NH - so we should call the shots.

Scrap the summer tours. Nobody cares and we're on a hiding to nothing.

It should be all about the 6N and the AIs.

Not so sure I can completely agree with that. The reason your AI's are so profitable is because the SH teams are involved. without them your AI's won't be all that profitable.

You call the shots? I highly doubt that, you suggest to the SH they must not have incoming tours in June and you will very quickly find yourselves having no Tri Nation teams travelling North.

Because they need the AIs more than we need the Summer tours

Disagree with that, how do we not need the summer tours more than the autumn tours.

Apart from that why would we allow the Six Nations teams to have all the home matches, that makes no sense at all.

OK i don't know what i was on about there. But something needs to change, this is madness

Could join the two together, SH one week, two weeks later NH over a month in November.

The NH season is a shambles and there is bugger all we can do about it because the RFU and FFR have no control over there clubs.

Well we are in agreement something needs to change.

We also agree tests are the money spinners.

That only leaves either to remove the internationally contracted players from the domestic season or restructuring of the domestic season.

How does Wales' season work as an example?

You have the RABO 12 and the Heineken isn't it?

How many games are that?