Mainly for jeffrowley - Burley v heavyweight

I came across this during my travels in cyberspace and immediately thought of our resident Charley Burley expert, jeffrowley. I'm sure that it will also interest others.

NOT A WORD OF THIS IS MY OWN WORK. AUTHOR IS MATT McGRAIN.

13/3/1942 - JD Turner, 220lbs; Charley Burley 150lbs - Charley Burley TKO 7 JD Turner

JD Turner was not a great heavyweight - but he was a white one. What that meant, in 1942, was that he didn’t need to win to be given another chance, and James D had plenty of them. His record was a winning one, both upon his retirement (he lost 8 of his last 9) and when the idea - the strange, even frightening idea - that he should share a ring with Burley, the Pittsburgh welterweight first surfaced. Indeed, despite a record that contained almost as many losses as wins, Turner found himself involved in boxing at the highest level.. Just over a month before he was to tangle with Burley, Turner had been out pointed in a close fight with another great Pittsburgh fighter, Billy Conn. The ten rounds saw Conn edge home, and although there was no stink about the decision, Turner’s impressive performance at the highest level had astoundingly led to his potentially having a say in the race to face Joe Louis for the Heavyweight title. If Turner was able to get past Charley Burley, there was talk that he would be matched with Bob Pastor who had twice fought Joe Louis - and hoped to be matched with him again. To this end, Pastor hoped to be seen to do a better job on Turner than Conn had, hopefully bringing him closer to another crack at the title. Turner himself had scored a third round knockout in the fight immediately after the slender loss to Conn, and, of course, had aspirations of his own. If a slender loss against Conn had him on the outskirts of the title picture, what could a win over Pastor do?

Turner, despite his limitations, did have more going for him than his colour. Described as having a smooth style, and although ponderous, he seems not to have been totally lacking in skills, and certainly, he had enough to keep things close with Conn. He was also a big heavyweight, weighing in at 215-225lbs and standing at 6 feet three inches. But for all his considerable strength, he was only a good hitter, not a great one, and was himself vulnerable to punching heavyweights - he was stopped by perennial contender Elmer Ray and two time Joe Louis victim Abe Simpson, for example. But he was to become the Heavyweight Champion of Texas, his home state, and he had something to fight for, that chance at Bob Pastor, - he also held a win over Neville Beech, at the time a ranked heavy, though Beech got the better of their series. By no means contender material, he was a journeyman elevated to the status of a stepping-stone fighter by virtue of his colour. Although big, and at the peak of his powers, he certainly wouldn’t have been considered a threat to any world class heavyweight.

Heavyweight.

The fight was the brain-child of promoter Tommy O’Loughlin, who had been ringside to see the 183 Conn eek out a decision over Turner, and hit upon the idea of setting up a fight between the giant Texan and Charley Burley. It should be noted at this point that Fritzie Zivic, also of Pittsburgh, was the same size as Charley and was not expected to fight heavyweights (though Fritzie certainly would have been up for it). Unfortunately such a match could not legally be made, and it required special permission from the Athletic Commission of Minnesota to go ahead - granted on the grounds that Charley was suffering form “a shortage of opponent’s in [Burley’s] own weight class”. And how. Charley was probably already one of the most dodged fighters in history and all kinds of trickery was employed to keep champions and even top contenders out of Burley’s ring. Henry Armstrong, Red Cochrane and Fritzie Zivic, had already made moves to avoid putting titles and reputations on the line against Charley and some say Conn’s name should also be on that list - later Jake LaMotta, who would fight almost anyone and Marcel Cerdan would decline invitations to the dance, and Archie Moore, who would absorb the beating of a lifetime at the hands of Burley, certainly wanted no part of any rematch. Sugar Ray Robinson, who many regard as the greatest of all time, made perhaps the most blatant duck of all, turning down a career’s best payday before he came to the title, and refusing point-blank to even entertain the notion once he had it in his possession. As the saying goes, “beggar’s can’t be choosers”, and Burley and O’Loughlin certainly were begging by this stage. History doesn’t record Charley’s reaction to the match being made, but there is a story that the two had almost come to blows outside the ring some months before. Broadcaster Harold Branson, who considered Burley the best fighter in history, claims Turner called Charley a racist name in the gym whilst Charley was sparring. The smaller man, not given to violence outside of the ring, reportedly had to be restrained. Whether or not this is true is unknown, but Charley did make a couple of “moves”, uncharacteristic of him. Firstly, he announced in the press that he’d “noticed that referees around here don’t strictly enforce the rule against holding a man [and] hitting him. It’s as much a foul as hitting below the belt. All I’m asking is that the rules be enforced.“ Burley almost never used the press in this manner, but it can be imagined that he was concerned what might happen to him should Turner be allowed to hold, lean and punch. Secondly, he got involved over the issue of gloves. As a welter and sometime middleweight, Burley was used to boxing with 6 ounce gloves, whilst Turner, as a heavyweight, generally fought in 8 ounce gloves. Burley wanted to be allowed to wear the smaller gloves whilst Turner fought in the heavier ones. But it was not to be. The Commission ruled that “It would obviously be unfair to allow the men to wear different gloves…Turner is a heavyweight, this is to be considered a heavyweight fight.” Charley Burley, heavyweight.

On the night of the fight, Charley would be giving up around 70lb, weighing 150 to JD’s 220, and six inches in height. He would be fighting in unfamiliar gloves designed to take the edge of a heavyweight’s concussive punches, to protect his bigger hands. But, seemingly overlooked by all aside from perhaps Burley himself, JD Turner had no advantage in reach. Burley’s freakishly long arms gave him a reach of 75 or 76 inches depending upon who you believe, and Turner’s reach was around the same. And then there was the attitude of Charley himself. In the run up to the battle, he seemed cool and calm, sure of himself, in fact. Dick Callum of the Minneapolis Times wrote: “How can the little fellow possibly hurt the big fellow? How can the big fellow fail to get a destructive punch home somewhere through the ten rounds? But Charley is so sure of himself, speaks of ways and means with such confidence that we are compelled to take his word for it.” Burley’s coolness in the light of what he was facing speaks to us of the type of man he was. Never good copy, loud or obnoxious, Burley was absolutely fearless and even in that golden age of boxing, may have been peerless in terms of skills in pound for pound terms - or if he had peers they were few and far between, and not keen on fighting him. Burley himself was not so reticent: “I never worried about heavyweights. You could pick your spots”, he told Sports Illustrated years later.

The fight itself was a massacre. Burley out jabbed, out-sped and out-boxed the giant Texan. From The Star Journal: “Burley was a jumping kangaroo as he stabbed Turner’s mouth to ribbons with a nasty left hand. Left hooks to the body and a long overhand right to the jaw were called into play just to make life more miserable for the huge Texan…Burley was jabbing him to death.” The few minutes of precious film which exist of Charley Burley - from the second fight with Oakland Billy Smith, a murderous punching and seemingly quite crazed light heavyweight contender - shows a fighter who pounced from steel springs to deliver lighting punches then retreat out of range. His hands were to low, he retreated in straight lines, and yes, he got away with it against Smith. And he would certainly have gotten away with it against the slower Turner. What the bigger man endured sounds like a kind of torture, flashing at something that wasn’t there before being repeatedly stabbed by it. From The Daily Tribune: “Burley’s leaping left hand, never missing, had mashed [Turner’s] mouth and lips into a sodden pulp. His own best punches had missed…Burley was brilliant in his manoeuvres against his big, heavy-handed opponent. He came in quickly.” At the end of the fifth round, Turner “wanted to quit, saying his stomach was full of blood, but his handlers made him try one more round. After that round he was sure he wanted to quit and no amount of urging could get him off his stool.”

Eddie Futch, who is quite clear in his opinion that Burley is one of the best to have ever fought, spoke with JD Turner, many, many years later about the night Charley Burley destroyed him, and Turner told him, “that little sucker knocked me out cold. I woke up in the dressing room.” Of course, no film exists of the night Burley fought Turner, but what always strikes me when reading about the fight is how one sided it seemed. Burley is an all time great fighter, and Turner wasn’t one of the top heavies of his day, as we have seen, but for Burley to have retired him on his stool having hardly taken a clean punch - imagine Miguel Cotto dishing out this sort of hammering to Matt Skelton or Shane Cameron. It doesn’t seem plausible. A great, and forgotten fight, it deserves to be recalled on occasion, I feel, and certainly it should be cherished as a part of the Burley legend, which continues to grow despite a dearth of footage and eye-ball witnesses

Directly after the fight JD Turner left for the military. Upon returning he re-embarked upon his professional career, and would again fail to make the impact at the highest level, against Elmer Ray, who stopped him in 5. He would win some, lose some, he would lift the Texas state title.

For Burley, the future looked momentarily brighter. An New York city benefit dinner was approaching and the welterweight champion Red Cochrane was to fight at it. Burley’s management were hopeful that with a win over a heavyweight under his belt, Burley might be good for a slot at the show, perhaps even in the opposite corner to Red. O’Loughlin wired New York, offering Charley Burley’s services free of charge.

He received no reply.

Great read and thanks for the find Windy, thoroughly enjoyed it.


Cheers

Rodders

You're very welcome, Rodders.

Glad you enjoyed it.

Nice one Windy, cheers.

Cracking stuff Windy, as most will know I need little persuading of Burley's brilliance and this simply underlines it. It is up there with Langford's inability to secure a title shot as one of the rings great injustices that a fighter of Charley's ability could not secure a title shot because at welter I'd give him a serious chance against Armstrong, would back him every day of the week to beat La motta who openly acknowledged he did not like facing slick boxer types, and there were none slicker than Burley. Hell this may be sacriledge to many but would even give him a shot against Robinson, who seemed none too keen on the fight.

When one considers Burley was ranked in the top ten at either welter or middle for a ten year period his failure to get a shot is shameful, and it speaks well of the man he never allowed himself to become bitter at his treatment.

I have read quotes from plenty who saw Burley live such as Louis, Futch and Robinson as well as countless who shared the ring or sparred with him such as Moore and Marshall and to a man they consider him if not the best ever then right in amongst them. A decent puncher, iron jaw and peerless defensive skills set him out as one of the finest in even such a strong era. A pity there is so little footage to corroborate the praise but I care not a jot, my favourite fighter and along with Langford the finest ever to never hold a world title.

Galveston, jeff, you're very welcome.

Nice follow up post also, jeff.

Think the article makes a good point Windy it is easy to overlook, we read of a guy like Burley fighting a heavyweight and forget just how big a deal that is. Take a guy like Sugar Ray Leonard who is a terrific fighter and rightly regarded as a great, but when he was a welter witout bulking up would you give him a squeak of a chance against even an ordinary cruiser such as Enzo Macarinelli?

Most would say it was a step too far and plain foolhardy but is no different to what we are discussing here, remarkable stuff really and does sound from the reports Burley was plenty aggressive in there, certainly does not sound like some hit and run mission.

rowley wrote:Think the article makes a good point Windy it is easy to overlook, we read of a guy like Burley fighting a heavyweight and forget just how big a deal that is. Take a guy like Sugar Ray Leonard who is a terrific fighter and rightly regarded as a great, but when he was a welter witout bulking up would you give him a squeak of a chance against even an ordinary cruiser such as Enzo Macarinelli?

Agreed, jeff, and therein lies at least part of Burley's greatness.

I don't know a fraction of what you do regarding Burley, but the little I do know, ( for much of which I must thank you, ) and the little film I've seen has me absolutely hooked.

Lovely stuff, Windy, and not much to add from me as Jeff has already highlighted the nature of what Burley did. As great as Pacquiao is, I do wish that a few more fairweather fans would take the time to read up on guys such as Burley (as well as the likes of 'Barbados' Joe Walcott, who I'm almost obsessed with) before claiming that Pacquiao beating a man who weights 17 lb more than him on fight night is something which has never been equalled in boxing history before.

If we had a rating system on this site, I'm sure this article would have five stars all over it.

Pleased you enjoyed it, Chris. and I'm pleased I was able to share Mr McGrain's work with you all.

Totally agree with you about Walcott, but you knew that already, didn't you ?

It's a fair point Chris, remember reading Fitz weighed in at 151 before smacking around an all time great middle in Jack Dempsey, for that guy to then go on and beat an all time great heavy in Corbett and hold his own along side guys like Jeffries and Sharkey puts the weight hopping exploits of many of the modern guys in sharp focus, and that is without getting me started about Langford

HumanWindmill wrote:Pleased you enjoyed it, Chris. and I'm pleased I was able to share Mr McGrain's work with you all.

Totally agree with you about Walcott, but you knew that already, didn't you ?

I believe so, yes Windy. I did an article back near Christmas time on the old 606 regarding Walcott and if he was perhaps boxing's greatest 'freak of nature' and, while obviously not everyone agreed, most (including you, if I remember correctly) agreed that he'd be in the reckoning.

Great fighter, some remarkable feats and an interesting life outside the ring, too. Much like Burley, in fact.

Cracking read Windy thanks for posting this.

I always feel a bit saddened when reading about Burley as he seems to be somewhat of a footnote in boxing history.

I myself wasn't really aware of how good he was until going on the original 606 and hearing people rave about him.

Seems a shame that most casual fans will miss out on what a talent he was. If he had of got the fights he deserved that would be far from the case.

A very good article it was, Chris.

I'm almost as miffed about the lack of Walcott footage as I am about the lack of Greb footage.

He must have been wonderful to watch.

You're welcome, badger.

Hope Lady Badger is doing well.

Brilliant stuff Windy what a fantastic find.

Burley is one of those guys I would love to learn more about, see why Jeff appreciates him so much, albeit not a better technical fighter like Joe Louis, but there you go.

Thanks, Jimmy.

Delighted to see you posting again. You've been sorely missed while most of us have been involuntarily riding the ' Manny ' train.

Not sure our jeff will take kindly to the idea that Burley wasn't ' technical, ' though.

I don't remember Burley being rolled like a drunk by a bar room brawler like Galento.

Just over WW retiring a decent sized heavy, no matter what level is crazy.

HumanWindmill wrote:Thanks, Jimmy.

Delighted to see you posting again. You've been sorely missed while most of us have been involuntarily riding the ' Manny ' train.

Not sure our jeff will take kindly to the idea that Burley wasn't ' technical, ' though.

Thanks for the kind words Windy, unfortunately a new "modern" technology system implemented into my working life has taken up most of my leisurely time. Lovely to see the great posters from old 606 still very active.

Thought the technical jab, might get Jeff to saunter over to his keyboard.

Scottrf wrote:I don't remember Burley being rolled like a drunk by a bar room brawler like Galento.

Just over WW retiring a decent sized heavy, no matter what level is crazy.

Ha didn't you think you'd be far away Scott, when I referred to the great posters from 606 still being active, that didn't include you !!

Only kidding mate, hope all is well

Difference with Burley and Louis is when he fought a great light heavy in Moore he smacked him around, everyone knows when Louis fought one in Conn he got clowned before getting lucky.

Did Burley even exist?

One of the greatest of all time, you don't beat Moore without being quite special, will never forgive him for that

Great article, good find Windy

oxring wrote:Great article, good find Windy

Cheers, oxy. Glad you enjoyed it.

HumanWindmill wrote:You're welcome, badger.

Hope Lady Badger is doing well.

Still waiting for the little blighter to turn up Windy.

Still waiting also for confirmation from Lady Badger that I can name said blighter Oscar, Manny or Ezzard!!

Sir. badgerhands wrote:Still waiting also for confirmation from Lady Badger that I can name said blighter Oscar, Manny or Ezzard!!

Strewth, mate, you're an optimist !

Give Lady Badger our best.

Great read. Especially astounding that Burley wasn't a big welter like Margarito or Hearns, nor was he a light heavy in middleweight clothing like Barkley. He doesn't seem like the sort of guy who really possesed many great physical advantages (although enough power to deck Moore four times in ten rounds ain't to be scoffed at) but must be among the rings most canny operators and cool heads. I don't know who i want footage of more, Greb or another exhibition of Burley's style.

Glad you enjoyed it, John.

There's a clip or two of Burley at youtube and one, in particular, is very interesting, since it involves a detailed analysis, ( as detailed as a short clip can be, ) of his style and technique. Don't have a link, I'm afraid, but it shouldn't be difficult to find.

Would that be Charley Burley - Analysing Genius?

Great tip but I seen it.

Here's a clip to show just what Burley was controlling for all those rounds against Oakland Billy Smith:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIgUmCb5Td4&feature=player_embedded

skip to 4:20 to see he was a live and dangerous foe.

Thanks for that, John. Awesome stuff.

I noticed that the fella who uploaded it is called ' McGrain, ' so I'm guessing that he'd be the same fella who wrote this article.

Small world.

The detailed "stance analysis" on that is great - especially when compared with DLH and Oscar.

His footwork was incredible - especially how he controls the ring with minimal movement and pivoting.

Shame there's not more really

I have seen the footage and I am convinced this person did not exist.How you go on about the "old folks".Boxing was actually created in 1985 anyway.

andygf wrote:I have seen the footage and I am convinced this person did not exist.How you go on about the "old folks".Boxing was actually created in 1985 anyway.

Exactly so, andy.

A chap called Gus Tomato actually invented boxing, though some say he did it as early as 1984.

andygf wrote:I have seen the footage and I am convinced this person did not exist.How you go on about the "old folks".Boxing was actually created in 1985 anyway.

Did they have protein shakes in 1985? With modern training techniques?

Surely boxing started around 1990/1991 with RJJ

Sorry azania

oxring wrote:

andygf wrote:I have seen the footage and I am convinced this person did not exist.How you go on about the "old folks".Boxing was actually created in 1985 anyway.

Did they have protein shakes in 1985? With modern training techniques?

Surely boxing started around 1990/1991 with RJJ

Sorry azania

My mistake, oxy.

There I was going on about the old timers again. Of course the 1980s guys were slow, predictable, telegraphed their punches and lacked skills in comparison to the nineties lot. As you rightly pointed out, it's the protein and creosote that makes great fighters. I really must stop this nostalgia trip.

Don't forget that in the 80s they'd only just stopped training on jack daniels.

The reason Gus Tomato was so revolutionary was that he created this monster called "peak Tyson"; who amongst other things could walk on water, swim through land, walk into burger king, eat a big mac and get one, uppercut a horse and turn it into a giraffe...

oxring wrote:Don't forget that in the 80s they'd only just stopped training on jack daniels.

The reason Gus Tomato was so revolutionary was that he created this monster called "peak Tyson"; who amongst other things could walk on water, swim through land, walk into burger king, eat a big mac and get one, uppercut a horse and turn it into a giraffe...

Ah, ' peak Tyson. '

If only he had modern nutrition and training. Why, he'd be as fit as Arreola !

what people don't know is that Peak Tyson turned on his creator when he fed him shakes ,which gave him the runs.This made him Even Angrier, he killed Gus Tomato, but sadly only his creator knew how to get him to roll his head so he lost all his powers.When Buster Douglas started kicking his ass, he malfunctioned,his staff were powerless without Gus the evil animator, and thought that you stopped facial swellings by blowing into a surgical glove then applying it.

Every third midnight of the month he morphs into Woody Allen for a day.

andygf wrote:what people don't know is that Peak Tyson turned on his creator when he fed him shakes ,which gave him the runs.This made him Even Angrier, he killed Gus Tomato, but sadly only his creator knew how to get him to roll his head so he lost all his powers.When Buster Douglas started kicking his ass, he malfunctioned,his staff were powerless without Gus the evil animator, and thought that you stopped facial swellings by blowing into a surgical glove then applying it.

I believe that you stole that plot from ' Poirot ' andy. All sounds very neo - noir to me.

This also explains why Mike got confused and started nibbling his opponents instead of trying to rip their bones into their brains.
Mike retired mumbling "Jessop Jessop Jessop" to himself, went to live at the top of the Empire State Building, where he still resides. Occasionally true boxing fans male a pilgrimage to visit him, and ,witheery echoes of Gazza/Moat, Iron Mike only allows them to speak to him if they bring him a nice biryani,a naan, and a pickled egg.
We will never see his like again.

Cracking read, Windy!

Reminds me of some of Paxton's descriptions of Greb's victories over bigger men in The Fearless Harry Greb!

superflyweight wrote:Cracking read, Windy!

Reminds me of some of Paxton's descriptions of Greb's victories over bigger men in The Fearless Harry Greb!

Glad you enjoyed it, superfly.

Shame you're so busy at work, but good to see you're still able to join us in the evenings.

Cheers Windy. Am going to make a real effort to get on here at night and at the weekends.

Good to see so many old names making it on here and it looks like a good forum and the format seems to deter excessive wumming.