Robinson vs Burley - A view from Ringside

On the occasions on here the greatness of Sugar Ray Robinson is debated one of the few sticks offered up to beat him with is his failure to fight Charley Burley. Have no real interest in revisiting why that fight did not happen but thought I would give a perspective on how the fighters were viewed at the time from someone fortunate enough to see them both in action.

As some of you will be aware in April 1942 Robinson and Burley fought on the same card in Minneapolis, Burley faced Sammy Wilson, whilst Robinson faced off against Dick Banner. Btoh fighters secured second round wins over their overmatched opponents. As both fighters were well ranked welterweights the impressive nature of their victories led to an increase in calls to see the two matched agaist each other.

One of the people at ringside who pondered the potential match up was former fighter and referee turned journalist George Barton. To give some idea of Barton's credentials as a fighter he had been good enough to gain a win over Terry McGovern and as a ref had been the man in the middle for fights including the likes of Greb, Dempsey and Tunney. Gene was quoted as describing Barton as "one of the greatest referees and tops as a sports writer" Or to put it more simply Barton knew his stuff. Here produced at length is how Barton broke down the potential Robinson Burley match up.

"The knockout punch (by Burley) was a terrific right that landed flush on the point of Wilson's jaw. He dropped to the canvas as though shot with a high powered rifle. Wilson never had a look in. About the only time he touched Burley was before the gong rang at the start of the first round.

Despite the fact that Burley is a classy combination of boxer and puncher, Robinson stole the show from him with the flashiest exhibition of skill and speed seen in a Twin Cities ring since Mike Gibbons and Jock Malone were at their peak.

The best description of Robinson is to call him black lightning. He is fast as a streakl with both fists and feet - a perfect master of ring technique and all the punches in the boxing book. Ray went around the Georgian like a cooper round a barrel and when he began popping Banner in the face with straight lefts it reminded us of a guy painting a fence.

It was a revelation to see Robinson use a left jab. He stabbed Banner on the nose and mouth with so many straight lefts in the first round that ringsiders lost count. It was like watching an expert fencer stabbing a bag filled with sawdust with his foil."

Further analysis of ther potential match up was provided by boxing journalist Charles Johnson who was also ringside. His analysis was as follows:

"Robinson is the fancier Dan, flashier, hits faster and boxes better than Burley. But Burley hits harder and appears more durable. If the two should meet the sizeup would be about like this. Robinson would perhaps draw the nod if the fight were for ten rounds, outboxing Burley to a decision. But if the fight were the more trying 15 round distance, Burley, because he is the more enduring, probably would pull out the decision.

The final journalistic view comes from Joe Hendickson who wrote "Without attempting to discredit Burley, it was Robinson who showed the most stuff"

Based on this it does appear most felt Robinson had the edge should the fight have happened, but nobody appears to be making predictions with any great certainty and personally I was hugely surprised that of the two Burley was considered the puncher, as this is not something we normally think when we think of him. Should probably also be added that at the time Burley had been a pro six years to Robinson's two, so for any two year novice to be considered a match for a fighter of Burley's pedigree speaks volumes to Ray's true worth.

Personally found the reports from ringside interesting, illustrates that the demand for Burley and Robinson is not a modern construct and there was certainly a time where it was seen as a damned close match up.

Burley ran into Ezzard Charles and dropped a pair of decisions after the Wilson fight (and also went down to Holman Williams not long after).

Robinson was aiming for a crack at Freddie Cochrane and so I'm not sure what a Burley fight would have done for him in that regard.

Seems logical that Robinson -- the more dynamic performer -- would have drawn the better reviews. Burley was a nightmare to fight - anyone think this was a rich man's Hopkins vs Jones?

hazharrison wrote:
Robinson was aiming for a crack at Freddie Cochrane and so I'm not sure what a Burley fight would have done for him in that regard.

Very true Haz, most journalists seemed to think the sensible option was to pair them off with a view to the winner being the logical contender for Cochrane. As I am sure you are aware though Cochrane was in the Navy at the time and so when and if he could fight was not even clear. As tended to be the case with those in the services they were officially not meant to fight but money did tend to talk, was perhaps inevitable the promoters would prefer that to be Robinson as he was the much easier guy to sell and generate money with than Charley.

Surely the loss to Charles scuppered Burley's chances of forcing a match against Robinson? After that they campaigned at different weights didn't they?

Not hugely Haz, Charles was a middleweight so did not have a huge effect on Burley's ranking at welterweight. Obviously it made the clamour for the fight a little less vocal but they remained two of the better ranked welters.

Burley's unbeaten run took a bruising in 1942 with the Charles, Williams and Marshall defeats in quick succession. He then went on another good run, which might in part explain why the real clamour ( or at least the serious talks) took another 4 years to build up Jeff?

For the record, interesting asides though they are, I'm not sure you can tell too much from watching two guys fight on the same bill, especially if they win by early ko. So much is down to the level and style of the opponent. Good to read the perspectives regardless, though the guy who didn't think robbo would have durability (front the two rounds he watched!) was to be proven a bit wide of the mark. I guess young flash and skinny = no staying power

Nice stuff, Jeff. Some cracking finds there. As you'll know, sometimes even the best reading material on Robinson neglects to mention Burley and how they circled around each other for so long without ever meeting (the Herb Boyd book being a prime example!) so any new take on it is always interesting to me.

I go back and forth in my mind about how much truth there is to Robinson wanting / not wanting part of Burley, how much of the blame lies squarely on Ray's shoulders, just how many fans and writers of the time were really demanding the fight etc.

Interesting that Ray had only just graduated from the Lightweights in 1942, whereas Burley was by then flirting with Middleweight. When he lost to La Motta in 1943 Robinson was vocal in saying that he struggled coping with the weight advantage La Motta had on the night, and so was perhaps weary of giving Burley the same advantage in a fight further down the line? Unlikely, I know, as Burley had zero in common with La Motta in terms of styles and wasn't known for his hulking physicality, but maybe worth bearing in mind.

And as others have said, Burley went on to have a tough run in 1942. By the time he was white-hot again, he'd been campaigning almost exclusively at Middleweight (sometimes Light-Middle effectively, although of course there was no 154 lb weight class then) for a good while and, by 1946 / 1947, you can't really blame Robinson for wanting to get some mileage out of his Welterweight title, given that he'd had to wait so long to become a champion for various reasons (he beat three world champions within twelve months of turning professional, and had been referred to as the "Uncrowned Lightweight Champion of the World" as far back as '42 after beating Angott in those non-title fights).

Lots of reasons from about 1942 right up until Burley's retirement in 1950 to make the fight.....But just never quite enough to make it one of those absolute necessities to both men, it seems. So close but so far.

Hard to disagree that Burley's form for the rest of 1942 hurt his chances of getting the Robinson fight around that period. Whilst most of his losses were over the weight affairs and so did not hurt his welterweight ranking would seem inevitable if you lose three out of four it is going to impact on your chances of facing the hottest property in boxing.

Have to agree with your point about Robinson's durability Milky, think this is pure speculation based on Robbo not having made the trip rather than any weakness he had shown up to that point. He had already gone the distance with the ever hard work Fritzie Zivic and the excellent Matty Servo, and the reports of that fight do not suggest he was fading or struggling down the stretch, quite the opposite to be honest.

Interesting read Jeff, forgive me if I'm wrong but Burley never made it legitimately as the number 1 contender to Rays crown. Of course, Burley was the best thing around and there was serious money on offer so it's always going to look a little suspect on Rays behalf but iI guess Burley not making the no 1 status ultimately prevented the fight. It seemed everytime Charley was in a position to fight Ray he lost or got sidelined with injury , I guess if you're not number 1 contender and you're a problem that no one needs , it won't happen.

Cheers Rodders

Not sure was ever number one contender Rodders, think by the time Robinson got his hands on the welter crown Charley had pretty much cleared out every welter he could persuade to fight him and so found himself mixing with the middles and light heavies, this led to some inevitable losses and obviously even his wins did little to move him up the rankings at welter.

It's a a shame Jeff ,the fight should've happened you do have to feel for the poor sod he was forced Into some unsavoury match ups surely Charley did not realise what a fighting machine he would run into when taking on 20 year old, Ezzard Charles, after Robinson opted out of his offer.

Cheers Rodders

The book I am currently reading (Charley Burley – Allen Rosenfeld – excellent BTW) is a timely reminder just how good Charles was, was barely a novice when he beat Burley and in the first fight the gap in weight was not more than 5lb and the most generous of cards to Charley only had it 6-2-2. For a guy barely out of the amateurs to only drop two rounds to Burley is extraordinary. Repeating the feat is even more so as it rules out the possibility Charley was under prepared or took him lightly. Such a strong era around middle and light heavy, so many fighters like Bivins, Moore, Booker who were genuine world class and so many contenders around like Abrahams and the Hogue brothers who could be a tough proposition on their night.

The report that depicts Robinson as the boxer to Burley's rugged puncher may overlook the subtleties to Burley's game. While he may not have danced on his toes with the grace of Robinson, this was largely due to his contempt for wasting energy. He moved only when he needed to, so he maintained range with shorter movements and retained great balance. Could be a fairly nervy fight, had it happened, given how both of them knew they could not only KO the other, but probably believed they could outbox the other too.

Jamie Moore beats either anyway

Really interesting, do you have any context for the comments with regards to the type of fighters the writers liked? It has been suggested that not many people at the time were fans of Burleys technique, were the guys that have written these thoughts pro Burley?