The Greats That Got Away: Burley vs Robinson

All boxing fans today are frustrated by seeing arguably the two most talented fighters of the generation sharing a weight class and not squaring off. Today it's because of egos, promoters, needles and 0's. We look back on the days when the best fought the best, the fab four etc. but it didn't always work out that way.

The reasons were different, the risks were different. The world title was more coveted; if you lost the welterweight world title you couldn't fight some no mark holding another version of it in your next bout and call yourself a champion again.

In the talent rich 1940's there was only one title for each of the classic divisions and far more risk in taking on an exceptionally talented boxer who wasn't likely to make you bags of money. Charley Burley and the rest of the black murderers row could've been contenders any time, Ezzard Charles is within seeing distance of Robinson's place in the all time rankings, yet The Row never got their titles shots and Charles had to go up to heavyweight despite the way he dispatched light heavyweight champions left, right and centre.

If I had the book Charley Burley and The Black Murderer's Row to hand I could certainly go into the many stories around this particular fight almost but not quite coming off much more accurately. One is that Robinson offered Burley a trilogy if he'd take a dive in the first, but Burley detested fixes and was fiercely moral, so that was a non starter. Another was that they were each fighting other opponents one night, and Robinson had made an offer of a certain amount of money to get him in the ring with Burley. Then Burley went and iced his opponent in one round and the amount of money it would get Robinson to take him on went up significantly. No doubt, win or lose, facing Robinson would've given Burley - and other overlooked black fighters - the exposure they deserved. As it is it didn't happen, but...what if?

This is a difficult pick, as Robinson's most famous fights are A) At middleweight and B) against brawlers. Basilio, Fullmer, Graziano, Gavilan, Lamotta. All of them were great boxers, but the styles Sugar faced in his most infamous brawls bore little comparison to the finely balanced, and often safety first style of Burley. I remember reading somewhere a contemporary article comparing the two, the only thing I remember clearly from it was that, although the writer acknowledged Robinson had more power balanced between the right and left, Burley's right cross was probably the most dangerous weapon either of them had. No surprise as he had the hugely talented and hard headed Archie Moore all over canvas over their one sided ten rounds together. He also stopped a genuine heavyweight at one point and there's a tale of him knocking Elmer Ray unconscious in sparring. Burley wasn't just a puncher, infact he was first and foremost a boxer extremely sophisticated ability. A tricky, relaxed style which wasted little energy and was hard to pin down, a precise puncher but also an awkward slickster. Not always the recipe for an exciting fighter, but it allowed him to compete and beat men regularly at light heavyweight, despite only being a large welterweight himself.

What can be said of Robinson? The concensus greatest pound for pound and greatest welterweight fighter off all time. In a sport where so few can agree on anything. So how does it play out? The only thing I'm certain of is that it's a distance fight. Both had chins of top quality. Burley was never stopped and Robinson was once stopped by heat exhaustion. Both had the stamina to go 15, although Robinson was allowed to prove it on more occasions. Burley had the lower workrate but wasted less movement. Despite each of them being punchers it's likely to be a 15 round decision.

So both of them at their welterweight peaks, for the title, who takes it? I find myself siding with Robinson for little other reason than that his style would please the judges, and that he showed more often that he could dig deep and scrap out the verdict in the championship rounds where he was always strong. Burley's ability to hurt larger foes makes me doubt whether this would be a wise tactic.

How does Burley get around the jab? Can Robinson avoid falling into Burley's traps and being forced to concede ring center? Over to you, folks....

What a great article, JBW.

It'll always remain a crying shame that Burley never got his title shot. As you allude to, it's hard to decide exactly how Burley-Robinson at 147 lb would pan out due to a lack of footage of Ray's peak, while we only have sparing film of Burley in action at any weight.

The only weakness Robinson really had was getting frustrated when he was pushed back or tied up on the inside, and he could become a dirty so and so when this happened. Going on the Billy Smith fight, as well as the words of those who saw him in action in the flesh, Burley didn't have the best inside game and, even when he did feint his way up close, never really let the punches fly. Beating Robinson while standing off him is going to be a tough assignment for any Welter or Middle who ever lived.

Piecing everything together, my best guess is that Robinson takes a hard-earned decision in a competitive fight, maybe something like nine rounds to six. As a similarly artistic fighter, Gavilan was maybe the nearest thing to Burley that Robinson faced in his tenure as Welterweight champion and he was able to outbox the 'Keed', albeit not without some difficulties along the way. Robinson, for all intents and purposes, never lost a Welterweight fight so you'd have to imagine that he'd just find a way to be that little (very little) bit better in just about all areas than Burley.

Charley one of a few, Ray one of a kind, if you see what I mean.

Anyway, a top class article, mate.

Cracking article JBW and always a pleasure to see Burley get a mention around here, or indeed anywhere else. So hard to picka gainst Robinson at welter and equally as hard to get a gauge on how great Burley really was due to a combination of the lack of footage and also the impression that whilst he certainly was not involved in fixed fights there were certainly a few he appears to have coasted in, lest he blow out repeat bookings.

However one thing that strikes me reading about Burley is on the occasions someone appears to have got under his skin he seems capable of really tearing guys to pieces. Is widely reported he considered Archie Moore cocky and arrogant and the beating he gave Moore is probably the greatest the mongoose ever received. Similarly when he felt he had been shafted in the first Zivic fight he bounced him round the ring in their subsequent engagements, likewise Ray in training who was perceived to have taken liberties with him smaller foe.

Given the mess around Robinson gave him in securing a fight and it would have been the title opportunity so cruelly denied him have to think Robinson sees the best of Burley and then some. However the mess around Robbo gave him was a reflection of how good he knew Charley to be so likewise we see Robinson at his best.

Almost too hard to pick a winner so I'll go for Burley to win by first round KO.

Great read, don't know enough about Burley's career to really give an educated enough answer, though.

Splendid stuff, JBW. I suppose Robinson has to be the pick at welter, although Henry Brimm showed that the Sugar Man could be messed about, even at his best weight. Brimm, of course, was no Burley.

Always like Burley against swarmers or punchers; perhaps one might say that the very greatest boxer-punchers (ie Charles, Bivins, Holman Williams) could get round Charley. It's probable that Ezz gave Charley his most convincing ever licking when Burley tried to box him. Nitpicking, of course, and I'm not absolutely certain that Charley wouldn't have found a way to break Robbo's welter streak. In a contest of such fine margins, though, I'll go for Ray by tight decision.

Almost too hard to pick a winner so I'll go for Burley to win by first round KO.

Like many others I couldnt really call it. Ray Robinson has his extensive WW streak, but Burley was arguably engaging in the tougher fights pushed up closer to MW fighting the likes of Charles, Moore, Bivins, Williams, Wade, Lytell, Marshall, Chase, Carter and many others. Were you to swap their competition over, could anyone see Robinson going unbeaten fighting those guys 20-25 times above the WW limit?

Can't really contribute but just wanted to say thansk for the great article.

Certainly true that burley mixed it with the bmr whilst robbo didn't, and probably had a tougher resume. i recall a thread a while back where cl showed the weight and date line which meant that he was never really right time right weight for any of them... Except burley. This is fight that could and should have happened though burley fairly magnanimously showed no animosity and no blame with robbo...and from a career management perspective it's easy to see why ray wasn't falling over himself for the fight at the time.

As for the fight? One of the great what if's. a great and close fight almost certainly. Robbo to blitz the nostalgic, romantic hard luck story hype job in 2

Thanks for the responses. Almost double figures for a thread on black and white fighters, not bad!

This, of course, would be so much easier if we had some actual footage of Burley's 147 fights, an even easier if he looked awful in them although that seems highly unlikely.

The concensus seems to come to a non controversial Robinson MD, with neither having the superiority to really make it their own, but Burley's style maybe not the correct one for figuring out Robinson. I'd say the only welterweights I'd give a hope of outboxing Robinson would be, in descending order of likelyhood:
1. Thomas Hearns
2. Charley Burley
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
Hearns lacks the durability to close it and Leonard suffers from twice being messed around on the end of a long, thumping jab from a tall welterweight.

[quote="John Bloody Wayne"]Thanks for the responses. Almost double figures for a thread on black and white fighters, not bad!
[quote]

Is nice for someone else to join the "loads of work, not loads of responses" club, me and Tina were starting to get lonely. If this becomes a series you have the distinct advantage of being able to perfectly reasonably putting Manny vs Floyd in it and watching the responses fly in, although I'd think less of you if you did sell out so shamelessly.

My self worth depends entirely upon the opinion of anonymous posters on sports fprums, so sadly somebody else will have to post "Pacquiao V Mayweather, decided once and for all!"

I think the Robinson ducking Burley issue has been discussed before...Hard to buy into it though.

Throughout his career look at the great fighters Ray has faced...It's hard to believe he was afraid of Charley Burley.

I think more often than not Sugar Ray would have outpointed Burley more often than not in a close fight.

Burley proved himself against tougher and bigger men the Robinson...so was capable beating and hurting him...They would no doubt make a great series of fights.

Great article JBW As we know Burley was very highly regarded by other observers of the time and definitely was an equal of SRR according to some like Eddie Futch, and according to Archie Moore, he would have beaten Sugar, so I'll stick with Moore's opinion as its that difficult to call.

Did SRR duck Burley ? is another question! Burley was never a direct obstacle to Robinson's lifting the title, or the number 1contender for that title so if i was putting my politicians hat on getting technical about it I guess you could argue he didn't even duck Charley. I did read Robinson actually turned up for charity and when he arrived in ring he had to spar with one of the Black Murderers row Kid Cocoa, and Robinson refused to fight him.

I guess which is fair enough it's like Carl Froch turning up and having to spar with Mikkel Kessler.

Cheers Rodders

Very very difficult one to call but would say that Robinsons most famous fights were against brawlers but largely because he struggled with them as he got older, during his peak years he excelled against boxers like Gavilan and Wilson. Gun to my head with no real idea of how the fight goes would edge towards Robinson on points, one thing is for certain is that neither are getting knocked out.