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Uncontested scrums

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MajorRoadWorks
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler
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Post by mr_stonelea Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:35 pm

First of all, fair play to the Irish last Saturday for not feigning a prop injury. Uncontested scrums could have given the Irish a way back into that game. So what's to be done? Because this will happen again in the future - a team dominant in the scrums, losing their advantage because the opposition run out of props.

Shouldn't the team who causes uncontested scrums be penalised somehow?

Should they play with 14 men?
On each uncontested scrum (on their put in) should the ref move the scrum 10 metres back?
Should the scrum half feed the ball from the other side (to give the other hooker a better chance of hooking)?
Should uncontested scrums be abandoned and a line out taken instead?






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Post by geoff998rugby Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:39 pm

Allow both a TH and LH on the bench
Even if both players for one side are injured still make scrums contested
If a third prop gets injured then 14 men for the team unable to contest them

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Post by gowales Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:22 pm

Geoff,
I think the NH has pushed for that. But the SH, in particular OZ and NZ are not in favor of it.

Under the current 22 man squads, i agree with the OP that they should have to play with 14 men.

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Post by eirebilly Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:32 pm

Could you imagine the outcry if there were uncontested scrums on Saturday?

Personally something seriously needs to be done with the scrums, they are an absolute mess.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:39 pm

I think Geoff has it right.
23 man squads with two props on the bench.
if scrums need to go uncontested then the side who's run out of props should be down to 14 men, otherwise they're actually gaining an advantage.

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Post by Submachine Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:54 pm

Probably a silly question but.
Don't the coaches choose who is on the bench? Don't they have the option of two props if they so wish? McCarthy could have covered lock and backrow. A bit harsh on O'Mahony? Then leave out O'Gara or McFadden. Tom Court or any other LH must never be asked to fill the tight head position for Ireland. If we can genuinely produce a competent prop who can do both then fair enough but Court could have been seriously injured or worse.

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Post by MrsP Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:36 pm

Who Submachine?

Which Irish TH would you have put on the bench and would the result have been any different?

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Post by emack2 Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:01 pm

A couple of points,was`nt there a ruling bought in last year that an extra prop had to be included on the bench a total of 4 props?In the event that all 4 props are injured then amend the laws.No uncontested scrums ,just a free kick for a offence that would usually be a scrum.
Where do you keep getting this stuff about Aus and NZ favouring uncontested
scrums.I`ve seen no documentation to back up the claim,just NH propaganda.
With Benn Alexander fit.Australia have a half way decent Scrum anyway and has improved greatly.
Since When have the AllBlacks fielded weak Scrums on a wide basis,more often than not.They have arguably THE Best scrum most of the time.in World Rugby.

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Post by MrsP Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:56 pm

emack2,

The 23 man squad doesn't apply to internationals.

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Post by Submachine Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:37 pm

MrsP wrote:Who Submachine?

Which Irish TH would you have put on the bench and would the result have been any different?

I'm not contesting Saturday's selection Mrs P. I'm thinking of the future. I like Court, he has done a job on the right side of the scrum but he is not a tight head by trade. To place anyone in that position in the future would be downright reckless in my opinion. If I was to nominate 2 props as cover for the next game it wouild be Court and Hagan.
I know Hagan is a bit green and has been come off 2nd best on occasion but he would not have been destroyed in the manner in which Court was. He would not be a safety concern. He can lock out the scrum and when under pressure has a few tricks up his sleeve. He is a tight head by trade and should given an opportunity.

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Post by gowales Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:50 am

emack2 wrote:A couple of points,was`nt there a ruling bought in last year that an extra prop had to be included on the bench a total of 4 props?In the event that all 4 props are injured then amend the laws.No uncontested scrums ,just a free kick for a offence that would usually be a scrum.
Where do you keep getting this stuff about Aus and NZ favouring uncontested
scrums.I`ve seen no documentation to back up the claim,just NH propaganda.
With Benn Alexander fit.Australia have a half way decent Scrum anyway and has improved greatly.
Since When have the AllBlacks fielded weak Scrums on a wide basis,more often than not.They have arguably THE Best scrum most of the time.in World Rugby.


It has nothing to do with whether or not they have strong or weak scrums. It's that they don't want to have 23 man squads in rugby.
Why do all NH hemisphere club/regional competitions now have 23 man squads while SH comps do not (apart from SA's Varsity cup funnily enough)? Answer, they don't want them because they feel it would take away from the "entertainment" aspect of the game. If everyone wanted 23 man squads (1 extra prop) don't you think they would be used for internationals by now?


Last edited by gowales on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:28 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by gowales Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:20 am

Oh, just to answer the original question.
With 23 man squads:


If all front row replacements have been utilised during a game, and there is a further front row injury, and no fit front row player is available from the original starting team or replacement bench, the injured player will leave the field but may not be replaced.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/6587.php

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Post by boomeranga Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:30 am

gowales wrote:Geoff,
I think the NH has pushed for that. But the SH, in particular OZ and NZ are not in favor of it.

Under the current 22 man squads, i agree with the OP that they should have to play with 14 men.

Any links GoWales? I don't dispute you are correct, just that it's something I would have expected to read about here and haven't.

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Post by gowales Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:41 am


It has nothing to do with whether or not they have strong or weak scrums. It's that they don't want to have 23 man squads in rugby.
Why do all NH hemisphere club/regional competitions now have 23 man squads while SH comps do not (apart from SA's Varsity cup funnily enough)? Answer, they don't want them because they feel it would take away from the "entertainment" aspect of the game. If everyone wanted 23 man squads (1 extra prop) don't you think they would be used for internationals by now?

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Post by gowales Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:44 am

Im just puzzled why Sanzar doesn't do something. If they want it then why don't they implement it in Super Rugby? It's obvious that they don't. That might not necessarily be the views of the ARU,NZRU, or SARU but until that happens we can't have it in internationals.

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Post by gowales Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:49 am

To be fair Ewen Mckenzie has called for it but its obviously fallen on deaf ears from SANZAR.

http://blogs.bettor.com/Ewen-McKenzie-asks-SANZAR-to-look-into-23-man-squads-Rugby-news-a74591

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Post by LondonTiger Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:43 am

Uncontested scrums were blighting the English Premiership until the new rules were brought in. Every round of matches saw at least one game with uncontested scrums often matches featuring Wasps and Bath.

Since the new rules cam in, I cannot recall there being a single uncontested scrum as anyteam that goes down that rout is penalised by having one player less.

Sad that it required a chnage to the rules of the competition to stop what was effectively cheating not far off "bloodgate" but glad it has now stopped.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:34 pm

Bear in mind that uncontested scrums exist for safety reasons. Theres been a strong case made to have the competitive scrum removed from teh game altogether on this basis, the current rules arae a halfway house.

Introducing punitive measures for sides being unable to field fit front row players would encourage those with injuries to continue to play when they shouldnt. Because of that someoen will get seriously hurt, and then the whole issue of the scrum being removed from the game would come back into the debate.

Its a pity that teams have taken advantge of this situation. The deal to get 23 man benches as optional for domestic competitions was great, and the trail to my knowledge has been succesful. It should be expanded.


The Sanzar dislike of the concept is quite sad. I can understand the reluctance for rolling benches but this system isnt that.


Just to add, well done to Ireland for not going to uncontested and taking the cheats route out. Shows real class.

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Post by MajorRoadWorks Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:59 pm

There should be a Sub for a Sub....

What I mean by this, is that you have the 15 starting players, plus your 7 bench, as now and you must include a front row in the bench as current.

You then are able to have 2 Subs for the Subs... These players MUST BE front row specialists and can only be used if all your front row have been injured. If they are needed THEY must replace a bench spot, hence you are only allowed your 7 replacements.

If all replacements have been used and you need to use a "Sub for Sub", then you MUST take off 2 players for the Front Row specialist, ie, the front row player they are replacing PLUS one other player, so that you don't get an advantage of up to 9 subs. In the same way, if all 7 replacements are used and a player is injured you go down to 14 men (13, 12, etc...).

This would allow contested scrums through out the game....

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Post by The Great Aukster Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:29 pm

Surely if FOUR props are regularly getting injured and having to be replaced, there is a fundamental problem with the game. Covering that by having even more subs is masking a dangerous situation, especially as the quality of the subs coming on is presumably getting worse every time.

Have full front row cover on the bench and then if any of them has to come off the team goes down to 14 and scrums go uncontested, seems the fairest solution.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:39 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

...
The Sanzar dislike of the concept is quite sad. I can understand the reluctance for rolling benches but this system isnt that.
...


The Aussies aren't keen on the idea because of their lack of front row depth. I suspect NZ isn't keen on the idea because the NZRU doesn't want to have to pay another prop's salary in each SXV squad.

Uncontested scrums have been very rare in NZ rugby. The one match that gets remarked on was in the early 90s when Canterbury nearly beat Auckland after claiming their reserve flanker couldn't play hooker (back in the days of 6 reserves and injury-only replacements), despite him having been Sean Fitzpatrick's backup for NZ Secondary Schools a few years earlier. Soon after that the 7man bench was brought in.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:46 pm

I do think 4 props is overkill but would it cost anything more to have an extra reserve who is only used in the evnt of injuries on the bench Kiwi?
I assume most S15 squads have players who arent in the matchday 22 in their squads? It doesnt require a bigger stable of players, just one of the resrves to be sat on the bench doing nothing rather than in the stands doing nothing.

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Post by wasps Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Uncontested scrums were blighting the English Premiership until the new rules were brought in. Every round of matches saw at least one game with uncontested scrums often matches featuring Wasps and Bath.

Since the new rules cam in, I cannot recall there being a single uncontested scrum as anyteam that goes down that rout is penalised by having one player less.

Sad that it required a chnage to the rules of the competition to stop what was effectively cheating not far off "bloodgate" but glad it has now stopped.


As a Wasps fan, I saw us go uncontested quite often a few seasons ago.
As you say, it hasn't happened much recently..... although our scrum is much improved (it's still nowhere near good enough in my opinion)

at around the same time I saw us go uncontested due to front row injuries when we have had parity / advantage in the scrum.
Obviously, it's very unlikely that any team would feign injury if they already have an advantage.
It therefore makes me think that our front row were very low on fitness and potentially all playing with injuries anyway.
(probably brought on by getting massacred at Welford road Wink )

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:55 pm

wasps wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Uncontested scrums were blighting the English Premiership until the new rules were brought in. Every round of matches saw at least one game with uncontested scrums often matches featuring Wasps and Bath.

Since the new rules cam in, I cannot recall there being a single uncontested scrum as anyteam that goes down that rout is penalised by having one player less.

Sad that it required a chnage to the rules of the competition to stop what was effectively cheating not far off "bloodgate" but glad it has now stopped.


As a Wasps fan, I saw us go uncontested quite often a few seasons ago.
As you say, it hasn't happened much recently..... although our scrum is much improved (it's still nowhere near good enough in my opinion)

at around the same time I saw us go uncontested due to front row injuries when we have had parity / advantage in the scrum.
Obviously, it's very unlikely that any team would feign injury if they already have an advantage.
It therefore makes me think that our front row were very low on fitness and potentially all playing with injuries anyway.
(probably brought on by getting massacred at Welford road Wink )


Yeah what advantage could a team possibly gain from having a fresh flanker on the field against a tired prop., just whne the balance of a game is starting to shift back to the chaseing team.
Hmmmmmmm.

Look it was common practise to take advantage of that rule. Lets not kid ourselves here. They woulnt have made the change in regulations otherwise.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:56 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I do think 4 props is overkill but would it cost anything more to have an extra reserve who is only used in the evnt of injuries on the bench Kiwi?
I assume most S15 squads have players who arent in the matchday 22 in their squads? It doesnt require a bigger stable of players, just one of the resrves to be sat on the bench doing nothing rather than in the stands doing nothing.

I agree. I just don't think Teflon Tew has throught that one all the way through Wink

The NZ SXV franchises have squads of 28 (with 26 travelling on the SA tours) plus 6 man "wider training groups"
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Post by wasps Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:00 pm

[quote="Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler"]
wasps wrote:

Yeah what advantage could a team possibly gain from having a fresh flanker on the field against a tired prop., just whne the balance of a game is starting to shift back to the chaseing team.
Hmmmmmmm.

Look it was common practise to take advantage of that rule. Lets not kid ourselves here. They woulnt have made the change in regulations otherwise.


That's a fair point.
Although, our fresh flanker was usually only Dan Leo Wink

I do dream of the days when Wasps can put out a 3rd choice front row of the same strength as Leicester's.
I'm sure that the front row that played in the LVCup at the weekend would take our first choice front 3 apart..... and as an ex-prop, that's rather depressing.


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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:06 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I do think 4 props is overkill but would it cost anything more to have an extra reserve who is only used in the evnt of injuries on the bench Kiwi?
I assume most S15 squads have players who arent in the matchday 22 in their squads? It doesnt require a bigger stable of players, just one of the resrves to be sat on the bench doing nothing rather than in the stands doing nothing.

I agree. I just don't think Teflon Tew has throught that one all the way through Wink

The NZ SXV franchises have squads of 28 (with 26 travelling on the SA tours) plus 6 man "wider training groups"

I take it they have reserve players they can call up too, like the Welsh regions do when plundering their clubs?
I really should know more about SXV rugby
The toutr party cost issue I hadnt really thought about, that has to be a concern.

I still cant see a strong argument for not having the 23 man bench in high level international games though.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:27 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I do think 4 props is overkill but would it cost anything more to have an extra reserve who is only used in the evnt of injuries on the bench Kiwi?
I assume most S15 squads have players who arent in the matchday 22 in their squads? It doesnt require a bigger stable of players, just one of the resrves to be sat on the bench doing nothing rather than in the stands doing nothing.

I agree. I just don't think Teflon Tew has throught that one all the way through Wink

The NZ SXV franchises have squads of 28 (with 26 travelling on the SA tours) plus 6 man "wider training groups"

I take it they have reserve players they can call up too, like the Welsh regions do when plundering their clubs?
I really should know more about SXV rugby
The tour party cost issue I hadnt really thought about, that has to be a concern.

I still cant see a strong argument for not having the 23 man bench in high level international games though.
I agree - NZ at the moment are fortunate that Ben Franks can play both sides, and in the past they had Somerville and Loe etc who could too.

Pretty much in SXV they're limited to the 34 players (main squad plus training squad) for the season, though I think they can draft in other replacements in the event of long term injuries - the structure of the NZ season means that they'd be calling up guys from who're only playing in amateur club rugby, with the INL cup months back in the memory - a real leap in intensity and fitness. The Blues last week in SA were struggling to fill their bench with backs after Ranger's suspension, Hobbs returning home for his father's funeral and a couple of injuries on top
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Post by gboycottnut Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:58 pm

emack2 wrote:A couple of points,was`nt there a ruling bought in last year that an extra prop had to be included on the bench a total of 4 props?In the event that all 4 props are injured then amend the laws.No uncontested scrums ,just a free kick for a offence that would usually be a scrum.
Where do you keep getting this stuff about Aus and NZ favouring uncontested
scrums.I`ve seen no documentation to back up the claim,just NH propaganda.
With Benn Alexander fit.Australia have a half way decent Scrum anyway and has improved greatly.
Since When have the AllBlacks fielded weak Scrums on a wide basis,more often than not.They have arguably THE Best scrum most of the time.in World Rugby.

The All Blacks did field a weak scrum in the 1977 test series V the British Lions. In the 3rd test, I believe the All Blacks were getting so hammered in the scrums that they at one point had to resort to a 3 man scrum!

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Post by emack2 Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:16 pm

Please refer to my post"ON A WIDE BASIS",I did`nt say it never happened.1970`s were the weakest period for NZ in my lifetime.
AllBlacks should have lost the 1977 Lions series but they did`nt.

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