JWC - Are scrums going to be abolished?

Looking at the Junior Rugby World Cup I am wondering if the Tri Nations are planning for scrums to be abolished. Although you can;t really judge a countries future on on their U20 World Cup team, as if a country is lucky maybe 6 of the 30 man squad will turn professional, and maybe 3 will go on to earn full caps.

However back to the point, New Zealand have basically selected two 6'4" locks as props in this tournament and got badly exposed against Wales, who went for traditional short, stocky guys, while South Africa also seem to have glaring weaknesses in the scrum, firstly exposed by Ireland now ruthlessly by England.

Is it possible they will lobby to have passive scrums in the future so the lock prop position will be more like a back row or lock, so their selections of such tall men are planning ahead for this.
Or do you think they have just produced very poor scrummaging props this year. And if so why has a set piece area been so badly neglected in their often brilliant coaching methods?

Because scrums are a waste of time, and usually only result in lottery like penalties.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Because scrums are a waste of time, and usually only result in lottery like penalties.

Only if you can't scrum properly - Like Samoa

munkian wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Because scrums are a waste of time, and usually only result in lottery like penalties.

Only if you can't scrum properly - Like Samoa

Or if you cast a discerning eye over the game of Rugby.

If you don't like scrums, you don't like rugby union.

DaveM wrote:If you don't like scrums, you don't like rugby union.

The Southern Hemisphere have blatantly wanted Rugby Union to become more like league for ages. Its all 'look at the shiney shiney' with them, no better than football fans

DaveM wrote:If you don't like scrums, you don't like rugby union.

Theres more to rugby Union than scrums.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

DaveM wrote:If you don't like scrums, you don't like rugby union.

Theres more to rugby Union than scrums.

Like cheerleaders, flopping over rucks and a lacks attitude to forward passes ?

Well thats not really what I had in mind, but rather things like Intelligent attacking moves executed by the use of scintillating skills and pace.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Well thats not really what I had in mind, but rather things like Intelligent attacking moves executed by the use of scintillating skills and pace.

Which you can't do without a decent platform - i.e a solid scrum

Never watched Australia then?

I wonder if you would be so anti scrums if the baby blacks hadnt have been so badly busted up at the setpiece laurie?.

Theres already a game of rugby with pointless scrums its called league.

tycroes
My reasons for having an aversion to Rugby scrums, dates from a long way before the baby blacks got done in any set piece.

I would say scrums in League have more point to them than the scrums in Rugby Union.

Well as a former forward I love a good battle at the setpiece and think it is an integral part of union. Whilst I love running rugby I emjoyed the matches in the wet over the last couple of weeks just as much.

Scrums are not the problem, teams who don't like them and shoddy referees are.

If scrums were ditched, I'd wish I had the willpower to abandon the game in protest. Sadly I doubt I would. Point being scrums are an integral part of the game and if the art of scrummaging was ever abolished, I'd hope there was a special place in rugby hell for those responsible, to put it VERY kindly.

Knowsit17 wrote:Scrums are not the problem, teams who don't like them and shoddy referees are.

If scrums were ditched, I'd wish I had the willpower to abandon the game in protest. Sadly I doubt I would. Point being scrums are an integral part of the game and if the art of scrummaging was ever abolished, I'd hope there was a special place in rugby hell for those responsible, to put it VERY kindly.

Nice for you to have a good rant against NZ. I have only watched the highlights of matches on the IRB site so I can't comment re the games. A couple of points.

1. NZ regularly converts flankers to props in the transition between school and club rugby. If they have done this is, it is not unusual. If they are struggling that is unusual as the are usually up to speed by the time they hit age group rugby. Alternatively it may because teams like Wales have a better scrum unit due to time together vs a team that only comes together for one tournement. Another option is that European teams are putting more work into their junior squads and have upped there individual skills. I suspect it's a combination of all of the above.

2. With NZ I suspect it's partly about a longer term strategy. Find players with the right characteristics, kep them in rugby and in NZ. Teach them to scrum well. NZ have generally been up there as one of very best scrumaging units in the professional era, so I doubt we want to get rid of scrummaging.

I think I can help both sides of this dicussion, by saying, at International level this opportunity of the scrums being contested are well and truely gone, In the NZ Ireland game the ABs won a scrum on Irelands put in, and the commentators called it a tighthead, I however disagree, New Zealand's winning of that scrum had nothing to doing with our hooker's "rake" for the ball, it was merely that the New Zealand "hit" and push was better.

Go to any suburban/rural club game in New Zealand and you still see genuine tightheads, and this is often attributed to one hooker being more experienced than the other, and has a better "rake" or "strike" for the ball, a term you dont often hear these days. At International level Hookers/front rows are far more evenly matched.

With the lesser number of scrums these days compared to lineouts, the role of the props to lift at lineouts is just as important if not more important as their ability to scrum. in turn the hookers role is probably more important at lineout time than it is at scrum time.

In my playing days I to was a forward but of the openside flanker variety, in one game at scrum time we were minus one of our props (probably in the bin), I foolishly stood in as prop, that was over twenty five years ago, to this day I carry the cartilage growth on my ribs, from where the opposition prop bent me like a paperclip, he thought all his christmases had come at once. That incident however has no bearing on my opinion that scrums in the International game are over.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I think I can help both sides of this dicussion, by saying, at International level this opportunity of the scrums being contested are well and truely gone, In the NZ Ireland game the ABs won a scrum on Irelands put in, and the commentators called it a tighthead, I however disagree, New Zealand's winning of that scrum had nothing to doing with our hooker's "rake" for the ball, it was merely that the New Zealand "hit" and push was better.

Go to any suburban/rural club game in New Zealand and you still see genuine tightheads, and this is often attributed to one hooker being more experienced than the other, and has a better "rake" or "strike" for the ball, a term you dont often hear these days. At International level Hookers/front rows are far more evenly matched.

With the lesser number of scrums these days compared to lineouts, the role of the props to lift at lineouts is just as important if not more important as their ability to scrum. in turn the hookers role is probably more important at lineout time than it is at scrum time.

In my playing days I to was a forward but of the openside flanker variety, in one game at scrum time we were minus one of our props (probably in the bin), I foolishly stood in as prop, that was over twenty five years ago, to this day I carry the cartilage growth on my ribs, from where the opposition prop bent me like a paperclip, he thought all his christmases had come at once. That incident however has no bearing on my opinion that scrums in the International game are over.

Sorry aucklandlaurie, I know I shouldnt laugh at your injury, but i couldnt help but giggle at the thought of the oposition prop licking his lips before he bent you in half, simple things, please simple mids.

Have to admit to no first hand knowledge of propping. My eldest is currently playing in the front row and it's not helping..............

Just for interests sake. Here are some links to scrumming

Latest information on upcoming scrum law changes released yesterday: http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2062780.html#irb+address+scrum+issues+with+global+trial

French team using state of the art scrum machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMlNdh3gXLU

Aussie analysis of scrums: working as a pack, middle row, and front row.
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/scrum-analysis-working-as-a-pack/
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/scrum-analysis-the-importance-of-the-middle-row/
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/video-analysis-rebels-scrum-issues/

All Blacks scrum guru on scrummaging:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yLo4qy4OZM&feature=relmfu

munkian wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

DaveM wrote:If you don't like scrums, you don't like rugby union.

Theres more to rugby Union than scrums.

Like cheerleaders, flopping over rucks and a lacks attitude to forward passes ?

We'd have been in the 07 final if not for a forward pass so you can take that one out!

Our cheerleaders are ugly-and I go to games to see good rugby like every other SH poster here. But you can't tell me that seeing those SA girls isn't a hell of a bonus.

I'd say NZ would still do well no matter how the game changed as they're an all weather team, and the Saffas and Argies love the scrum and its physicality. Don't lump us in with the Aussies please! Though they'd like scrums for another reason-all the fatties in one place gives more space to the backs.

I think it would be a massive shame to get rid of scrums. Part of what makes union so unique is the various aspects to the game. Scrummaging is one aspect that makes it more interesting than football or league. Obviously there is a huge problem with the modern scrum but this does not mean that scrums should be abandoned.

I would also like to add that if the issue with scrums was resolved properly then it would open up the pitch to more attacking rugby.

If we get rid of it iin order to create more attacking rugby then we take away a part of the game that has created specialists like Argentina. If they have no scrum then they have no game really.

I love scrums but they are a bloody mess at the moment and quite frankly a farce. It needs to be sorted soon.

1.rugby has always been, and should be for all types of, erm, athletes.

2. There is NOTHING wrong with the scrum rules, they are just not enforced ...at all

3. Binding is sometimes a Kit issue, but by and large (large...geddit) binding can be done properly (see Marler vs SA, long bind, no room for twisting/boring even if the other prop binds short).

4. Straight put in, closest linesman to come closer to flag up any binding faults/penalties.

I wrote this on another thread but no-one critiqued the idea.

What about if the scrum needs to be re-set a second time then the bind is done first but its the ref, that puts the ball in.

If the team without the ball tries to disrupt the put in during the first scrum with a dominant hit (more than two feet of movement) and bad binding (collapse) then they are penalised.

If the team with the ball doesn't bind properly or collapses in the first scrum they lose the put in to the ref. (i.e. they can still contest but with no advantage of the put in timing).

In other words Both teams stand to lose something if they don't bind correctly and contest correctly the first time.

If its down to a moving pitch the the fault isn't the teams and the scrum is re-set as normal.

in addition the closest lines judge should be called in to ref the other side of the scrum to ensure correct binding/straight put in and illegal boring.

baring in mid the existing rules are inforced with the above. so no shoving more than 2 feet, timing to the ref;s engage etc etc See Chairman Moore for details

I tend to agree that the laws are there but not enforced. The put in really gets on my wick. As a hooker i like to have a chance at the oppositions ball. It was my speciality but now I have no chance as the SH puts the ball straight at the second rows feet.

As has been said on here by a number of people if the srcum was set and steady before the ball came in then it would be a lot cleaner.

I couldn't figure out whether some of the Kiwi posters just plain hated scrums and wanted shot of them or wanted shot of them because they aren't reffed properly

Surely the answer is to just ref them properly ?

The Welsh demolition of the Samoan scrum was down to us being better scrummagers and having a decent pack. The only way the reffing let the scrum down in that game was there wasn't a yellow card earlier.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7810129,00.html

The International Rugby Board has announced that a new scrum engagement sequence will be trialled next season.



The new call - "crouch, touch, set" - will replace the current format of "crouch, touch, pause, engage" when trialled across the globe next season.


The new sequence has received unanimous backing from the IRB's expert Scrum Steering Group. The trial was approved at a meeting of the specialist group - made up of Union and players' representatives, former players and other experts - in Bristol, England, last month.


The revised engagement process will be trialled alongside the five Law amendments announced in May forms one part of the IRB's ongoing commitment to improving the scrum phase of the Game.


The sequence will see the front rows crouch then touch and using their outside arm each prop touches the point of the opposing prop's outside shoulder. The props then withdraw their arms. The referee will then call "set" when the front rows are ready. The front rows may then set the scrum

I want the hit gone. It's too dangerous and people slipping off at the hit is one of the reasons for many resets. Do that, and police the scrum properly, and it can once again be a contest the game itself can be proud of.

can someone explain to me in simple English how this..

The sequence will see the front rows crouch then touch and using their outside arm each prop touches the point of the opposing prop's outside shoulder. The props then withdraw their arms. The referee will then call "set" when the front rows are ready. The front rows may then set the scrum

is any way different apart from changing the word Engage to Set..?!

is it because Set is a more girly word than ENGAGE and would thus give scrums less of a adrenaline rush???!

Unless they are reverting to the rows individually coming together it's a struggle to figure out what has changed....

AGAIN this joke,the Scrum has been gradually emasculated since Amateur days.Tighthead holding up the Scrum.Loosehead trying to disrupt the opposing one by methods legal or otherwise.Fact the IRB the NH has more votes than SH SO if the Scrum is depowered it can only be with NH consent,The AllBlacks currently have a Strong Scrum.Boks is improving strongly,OZ is much underated law changes over the years mean.The fullwheel is illegal,and with it the dribbling rush[a skill long forgotten],Scrum half dummy run ,with ball held in the scrum to win offside penalty now illegal/not given.Players being able to detach be for the ball is out so planned back row moves.Like the "WALLABY",or "WYLLIE" now illegal.Binding has to be in a special way instead of just any how the changes go on and on.The days of 60 mins of grinding Scrum s then 20 minutes to try and run tired players of f there feeyt gone,[if it ever worked at all]Props picked for weight and strength so they can lift in the Lineouts or carry the ball.rather than key roles like scrummaging abilities.The ritual dance now makes the Scrum a farce,stats for collapses or resets are at an all time high.The new ritual may help but the old way of setting up by rows then engaging is still preferable.The Scrum should be a quick heel,a quickpass from 8 or SH then 10 can run the show.NOT wait at the base of a scrum while 9 makes and eats a bacon sandwich before passing the ball.Refereeing in the SH tends be more favourable to a flowing game.Hence the fact the SH game is much less static and set piece orientated
the proof of the pudding?SH sides are IRB 1,2,3 rated most of the time whether they can scrummage or not.DESPITE what you think SH sides can scrummage too!!!

emack2 wrote:AGAIN this joke,the Scrum has been gradually emasculated since Amateur days.Tighthead holding up the Scrum.Loosehead trying to disrupt the opposing one by methods legal or otherwise.Fact the IRB the NH has more votes than SH SO if the Scrum is depowered it can only be with NH consent,The AllBlacks currently have a Strong Scrum.Boks is improving strongly,OZ is much underated law changes over the years mean.The fullwheel is illegal,and with it the dribbling rush[a skill long forgotten],Scrum half dummy run ,with ball held in the scrum to win offside penalty now illegal/not given.Players being able to detach be for the ball is out so planned back row moves.Like the "WALLABY",or "WYLLIE" now illegal.Binding has to be in a special way instead of just any how the changes go on and on.The days of 60 mins of grinding Scrum s then 20 minutes to try and run tired players of f there feeyt gone,[if it ever worked at all]Props picked for weight and strength so they can lift in the Lineouts or carry the ball.rather than key roles like scrummaging abilities.The ritual dance now makes the Scrum a farce,stats for collapses or resets are at an all time high.The new ritual may help but the old way of setting up by rows then engaging is still preferable.The Scrum should be a quick heel,a quickpass from 8 or SH then 10 can run the show.NOT wait at the base of a scrum while 9 makes and eats a bacon sandwich before passing the ball.Refereeing in the SH tends be more favourable to a flowing game.Hence the fact the SH game is much less static and set piece orientated
the proof of the pudding?SH sides are IRB 1,2,3 rated most of the time whether they can scrummage or not.DESPITE what you think SH sides can scrummage too!!!

Give this man a Bells !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZK6IaX-Yts