Ulster squad additions

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All things relating to Ulster squad changes

Go and read my previous post.

It's not about McLaughlin or his background; although his contribution and the contribution of other Ulster born players and coaches to rugby as an all-Ireland sport over the years is something to be celebrated given the history of division and sectarianism on this island. My point was about the stereotyping of rugby in ulster as a Protestant pursuit. I appreciate it still is in many ways, but its something thats changing. When Sinn Fein ministers are happy to jump aboard the Ulster Rugby bandwagon and rugby clubs are being founded in the Donegal Gaeltacht you know we're beginning to move away from that. I feel it's not offensive or a big deal, I just feel it's disappointing to see a journalist trot out a stereotype like that when it's becoming increasingly less relevant.

Note the part in bold.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

You missed this direct quote from in the article from Brian McL.

..... Saturday was probably the biggest day of my rugby life. And the other one was that Triple Crown win over England in Croker. And that's an Ulster prod saying Croker!"

Actually I didn't, it's just not relevant to my point at all. I swear if there was a medal for missed points on this board...

It's not about McLaughlin or his background; although his contribution and the contribution of other Ulster born players and coaches to rugby as an all-Ireland sport over the years is something to be celebrated given the history of division and sectarianism on this island. My point was about the stereotyping of rugby in ulster as a Protestant pursuit. I appreciate it still is in many ways, but its something thats changing. When Sinn Fein ministers are happy to jump aboard the Ulster Rugby bandwagon and rugby clubs are being founded in the Donegal Gaeltacht you know we're beginning to move away from that. I feel it's not offensive or a big deal, I just feel it's disappointing to see a journalist trot out a stereotype like that when it's becoming increasingly less relevant.

Yup. Lets evolve and grow up together shall we? Time is running out.

I think it was Brendan Fanning who wrote the article on McLaughlin...although it might read more like the stuff we hear from Farrelly. I honestly think the first use of "prod" is a typo and it should have been proud.

humphstheman wrote:I think it was Brendan Fanning who wrote the article on McLaughlin...although it might read more like the stuff we hear from Farrelly. I honestly think the first use of "prod" is a typo and it should have been proud.

Don't think anyone would say "And that's an Ulster proud saying Croker!"

Sin,

I have a hard time accepting that too...to me it doesn't ring true.

Notch wrote:Go and read my previous post.

It's not about McLaughlin or his background; although his contribution and the contribution of other Ulster born players and coaches to rugby as an all-Ireland sport over the years is something to be celebrated given the history of division and sectarianism on this island. My point was about the stereotyping of rugby in ulster as a Protestant pursuit. I appreciate it still is in many ways, but its something thats changing. When Sinn Fein ministers are happy to jump aboard the Ulster Rugby bandwagon and rugby clubs are being founded in the Donegal Gaeltacht you know we're beginning to move away from that. I feel it's not offensive or a big deal, I just feel it's disappointing to see a journalist trot out a stereotype like that when it's becoming increasingly less relevant.

Note the part in bold.

It just illustrates that he was listening to McLaughlin (who described himself as a prod). The fact that you are getting your knickers in a twist over it says more about you than whoever wrote up the interview.

humphstheman wrote:Sin,

I have a hard time accepting that too...to me it doesn't ring true.

You think McLaughlin didn't say that?

Sin,

At the risk of taking your bait, you might be right about us being overly sensitive, but I doubt any journalist would write an article talking about the religion of a rugby player in the South. Maybe we would like to try and move on and not have others focus on an issue that many of us see as a non-issue.

No Sin. It says far more about you for pointing it out.

But. I know from reading Munsterfans, that all the Boggers will be supporting the "Todgers". Even if they are the anthisesis of most Republican Munstermen.

Pandora O' Sheas' box, has been well and truly exposed on this one.

I personally, find it all weird and low-level as a Paddy-Cloggie.

4 and a half Billion years of Evolution - to be still talking about religion. In sport? And with the two Irish teams who are involved in it all.
It's pure and utter joy for me. Never thought Id see the day.

The oldest fixture in the Irish Rugby Book. First and Last Stand at Old Lansdowne, meeting in English HQ, at the very pinnacle of European club rugby
It may never happen again and I intend to fully enjoy the moment with my Ulster & Leinster mates. Every second of it.

Last Provinces Standing.

Lets have a big phhok-off Irish Gig, in the RFU's HQ. The abstract beauty and poignency of which, has not passed me by. Ive been around rugby far too long, not to feel it to my core.
Rava is the same. Tears will be shed. Long before the game starts. And after it.

Its beautiful. Lets roide the place together. Let's have a mega-bash and celebrate being there. Two old Tribes. One goal.
That's the very essence of rugby. All grown up, no internal issues. And the sheer joy of experiencing it with our Ulster foes.

We have moved on. Notch is right.

Believe.

humphstheman wrote:Sin,

At the risk of taking your bait, you might be right about us being overly sensitive, but I doubt any journalist would write an article talking about the religion of a rugby player in the South. Maybe we would like to try and move on and not have others focus on an issue that many of us see as a non-issue.

The difference is that religion down here isn't a decider in what sport you play. Your economic background would be a factor and it wouldn't be unusual for journalists to make comments that Keith Earls and Sean O'Brien were not educated in the usual private schools. Leinster really use Sean O'Brien's background to counter the D4 Ladyboy tag.

gibbo - too true.

Sin - I don't know McL., but while it jars,, he more than likely said it. However, nor do I know the inflection that he used to make the comment...but to me it sounds like a comment that supports what a lot of Ulster fans have said and that is we are moving in the right direction.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Go and read my previous post.

It's not about McLaughlin or his background; although his contribution and the contribution of other Ulster born players and coaches to rugby as an all-Ireland sport over the years is something to be celebrated given the history of division and sectarianism on this island. My point was about the stereotyping of rugby in ulster as a Protestant pursuit. I appreciate it still is in many ways, but its something thats changing. When Sinn Fein ministers are happy to jump aboard the Ulster Rugby bandwagon and rugby clubs are being founded in the Donegal Gaeltacht you know we're beginning to move away from that. I feel it's not offensive or a big deal, I just feel it's disappointing to see a journalist trot out a stereotype like that when it's becoming increasingly less relevant.

Note the part in bold.

It just illustrates that he was listening to McLaughlin (who described himself as a prod). The fact that you are getting your knickers in a twist over it says more about you than whoever wrote up the interview.

Stop being a child. I've been at pains to point out I'm actually not that annoyed about it. I even used the phrase "I feel it's not offensive or a big deal". Christ, I hope stupidity isn't contagious because it would make trying to have a basic discussion with you even more torturous

Goodnight Sin.

Sin,

let's just agree to differ, a person's religion means little to me and i wish more people felt the same way.

Gibson wrote:No Sin. It says far more about you for pointing it out.

Only thing my initial comment said about me is that I actually read the article and I then pointed out that Brian McLaughlin referred to himself as a prod.

Sin é wrote:

Gibson wrote:No Sin. It says far more about you for pointing it out.

Only thing my initial comment said about me is that I actually read the article and I then pointed out that Brian McLaughlin referred to himself as a prod.

Well done, have a biscuit. You know how to read.

There are two things at play here;

a) McLaughlin jokingly makes reference to his background
b) The journo makes reference to the fact most people who play rugby in Ulster are Protestant.

Now a) and b) don't necessarily have much to do with each other. I'm only addressing b)- it's of zero importance what religion McLaughs is but I'm concerned that the stereotype of rugby in Ulster being seen as a Protestant pursuit is in danger of being perpetuated. I'm not offended or annoyed, just concerned. And now you've seen it we have to have a long, circular, annoying discussion about something I mentioned so casually- so offhand- not even really bothered about it.

Can you not see why people dislike engaging with you?

I love rugby. Even more than S&M, I'm a World-traveled Ladyboy. And proud of it. Like playing with young, in-bred Munster bhoys (dont quote me on that). Love wimmin too.
Dont get me wrong man. Hate all religions though. They cloud a man's vision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVAnlke_xUY

Notch,

that is how I read mcLaughlin's comment and I agree with your comment on the stereotyping.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Gibson wrote:No Sin. It says far more about you for pointing it out.

Only thing my initial comment said about me is that I actually read the article and I then pointed out that Brian McLaughlin referred to himself as a prod.

Well done, have a biscuit. You know how to read.

There are two things at play here;

a) McLaughlin jokingly makes reference to his background
b) The journo makes reference to the fact most people who play rugby in Ulster are Protestant.

Now a) and b) don't necessarily have much to do with each other. I'm only addressing b)- it's of zero importance what religion McLaughs is but I'm concerned that the stereotype of rugby in Ulster being seen as a Protestant pursuit is in danger of being perpetuated. I'm not offended or annoyed, just concerned. And now you've seen it we have to have a long, circular, annoying discussion about something I mentioned so casually- so offhand- not even really bothered about it.

Can you not see why people dislike engaging with you?

Thanks for congratulating me on being able to read.

Only one who cares what religion McL practices is you. Maybe I'm a bit unusual in that being referred to a prod or a catholic is more about your heritage than what church you go to - for example, if you come from a catholic background/community you are more than likely going to play GAA as you will have gone to catholic schools that generally don't play rugby.

You know that the majority of players & supporters come from a protestant background. By pretending otherwise isn't going to fool the rest of the population who don't come from a similar background.

Tell, who are all these 'people' who dislike engaging with me I'm a bit disappointed that posting here is really a popularity contest.

PS - Risking stereotyping here but your comments here illustrate why Humphreys didn't consider Penney suitable coaching material for Ulster.

See? You can't even string together a coherent response. I don't care what religion McLaughs or ANYONE in Ulster Rugby is. It doesn't matter. Thats the point I'm making. Why you would say "Only one who cares what religion McL practices is you" when I've made it clear his comments ae absolutely irrelevant is beyond me...

I'm not trying to 'fool' anybody. I'm just making the point that the stereotype doesn't fit everybody. Go to Tir Chonaill RFC in Donegal and say rugby is only for protestants in Ulster, or ask Tommy Bowe about that. There are clearly people involved in rugby from grassroots to professional level in Ulster who don't fit this stereotype and thats a great thing because rugby is meant to bring people from different backgrounds together.

The reason I mentioned it was I'm uncomfortable with a journalist writing for the Irish Independent to define the typical person involved in rugby in Ulster. Yes, the majority are but we're trying to be as inclusive as possible and hoary old stereotypes like that are damaging. I'm not whining, or fuming, or accusing the author of bias- I'm just mildly concerned that people are associating rugby in Ulster with one side of the community when we are making such an effort to reach out to everyone.

Now you've successfully goaded me into making a massive issue out of what was originally just a passing comment. So cheers, cheers for partially ruining another Ulster related thread with inane nonsense.

Sin has a point there.
No one in the SH wanted Anscombe. So many wanted Penney. Have Munster managed to shaft/out-manouver Ulster long-term? Tune in.

Time alone will tell, as to who will be the 3rd or 4th province in Ireland.

Meanwhile, under an Irish coach, Connacht are shifting gear under the hype radar.

Notch wrote:See? You can't even string together a coherent response. I don't care what religion McLaughs or ANYONE in Ulster Rugby is. It doesn't matter. Thats the point I'm making. Why you would say "Only one who cares what religion McL practices is you" when I've made it clear his comments ae absolutely irrelevant is beyond me...

I'm not trying to 'fool' anybody. I'm just making the point that the stereotype doesn't fit everybody. Go to Tir Chonaill RFC in Donegal and say rugby is only for protestants in Ulster, or ask Tommy Bowe about that. There are clearly people involved in rugby from grassroots to professional level in Ulster who don't fit this stereotype and thats a great thing because rugby is meant to bring people from different backgrounds together.

The reason I mentioned it was I'm uncomfortable with a journalist writing for the Irish Independent to define the typical person involved in rugby in Ulster. Yes, the majority are but we're trying to be as inclusive as possible and hoary old stereotypes like that are damaging. I'm not whining, or fuming, or accusing the author of bias- I'm just mildly concerned that people are associating rugby in Ulster with one side of the community when we are making such an effort to reach out to everyone.

Now you've successfully goaded me into making a massive issue out of what was originally just a passing comment. So cheers, cheers for partially ruining another Ulster related thread with inane nonsense.

I doubt if anyone from Tir Chonaill RFC or Tommy Bowe would deny that the majority of players and supporters for rugby in Ulster comes from middle class protestants.

I also doubt that anyone from Leinster rugby would deny that the majority of its support is from south Dublin (also the most populated spot).

I'd also be pretty sure that both Ulster rugby and Leinster rugby would like it to be otherwise. Admitting what the situation actually is will be seen as a positive. You know, just like in AA, you have to admit first of all that you have a problem before you can fix it.

You see your shifting the goalposts again; I've never said the majority of players and supporters in Ulster aren't protestants. Thats something you're ascribing to me even though it's bollox and I actually said the opposite before you even posted on the thread.

Notch wrote:I would like to think Mr Farrelly isn't stereotyping everyone who plays the game up here...

Am I being oversensitive? I know it's true to a great extent in many parts of the country but thats slowly changing...

Secondly, whatever you may think it's not a "problem" if people who support Ulster are Prods, Cafflicks or Martians. It's a problem if people think that their religion is a bar to getting involved in the sport. Thats why I'm concerned about the stereotyping here. It's probably nothing though.

You'll just argue about anything, won't you?

So anyways......have we signed a 10 or backrower yet?......

P.S. Mods can we please keep Cafflicks, athiests and pagans off Ulster threads please? ......

I agree Rodders. Only good Middle Class Prouds (preferably Presbyterian) should be allowed to discuss anything to do with Ulster Rugby. Anyone else just doesn't understand.....

Preferably Orange lodge members too Rava... aw heck maybe even Freemasons.... we want to widen our fan base after all.....

Rodders you want me off this thread

There is nothing more irrelevant at Ulster rugby club, and yes I see the irony, than the players religion. How he conducts himself as a person is vitally important though both on and off the field.

Sure most are Ulster protestants but as I have mentioned we, probably, had an all Catholic front row earlier in the season and no one batted an eyelid and I supect it never occurred to anyone. Thats because as it was totally irrelevant as would be the case if we played an all Protestant team - so what no one cares !

geoff998rugby wrote:Sure most are Ulster protestants but as I have mentioned we, probably, had an all Catholic front row earlier in the season and no one batted an eyelid and I supect it never occurred to anyone. Thats because as it was totally irrelevant as would be the case if we played an all Protestant team - so what no one cares !

Is Farrelly's point that McLaughlin identifies with one section of the community at the expense of the other? If not why mention it?

Yet again the Indo has taken the opportunity to ensure they ascribe a religion to someone associated with Ulster. Their readership must expect this designation in print to bolster the traditional stereotyped sectarian views of the place. Those views must be popular and sell papers, but they should be seen for what they are - fodder for the gullible.

The Williams rumours are based on very very thin gruel.

Someone on FRU guesses as much and it just gets repeated via gossip.
Such a signing would be completely counter to Ulster stated aim of only signing quality NIQ players and preferring kids to journeymen.

The NOC rumour has far more substance - but to be clear we are talking about a backup. Contesting with Olding for the 3rd choice slot.

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders you want me off this thread

Aw we can always make the odd exception Geoff

Who says Ulster rugby isn't inclusive?! ..... ....

geoff998rugby wrote:The Williams rumours are based on very very thin gruel.

Someone on FRU guesses as much and it just gets repeated via gossip.
Such a signing would be completely counter to Ulster stated aim of only signing quality NIQ players and preferring kids to journeymen.

The NOC rumour has far more substance - but to be clear we are talking about a backup. Contesting with Olding for the 3rd choice slot.

I expect O'Connor to sign. I'm hoping for a good NIQ signing- Humphreys has pulled rabbits out of hats before and we need one; we basically need a good 6 to play instead of Ferris in the Pro12 as I see it. Ferris will only be wheeled out on big occasions from now on due to some dodgy knees. We need a guy who can fill his shirt on a weekly basis.

What about S&M Ladyboys huh? Dont we have a say?

Fascists.

geoff998rugby wrote:The NOC rumour has far more substance - but to be clear we are talking about a backup. Contesting with Olding for the 3rd choice slot.

It doesn't make sense though. I've already posted why from an Ulster pov but it doesn't make sense from NOC's perspective either. He is regaining some confidence in a lower pressure environment. He has far more chance of playing HEC rugby with Connacht than Ulster and will be learning from an experienced Test player in Parks along the way. If he had any ambition he should be looking to establish himself as No.1 there and then more lucrative offers would follow. Leaving Connacht to contest third choice slot at Ulster doesn't make sense.

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The Williams rumours are based on very very thin gruel.

Someone on FRU guesses as much and it just gets repeated via gossip.
Such a signing would be completely counter to Ulster stated aim of only signing quality NIQ players and preferring kids to journeymen.

The NOC rumour has far more substance - but to be clear we are talking about a backup. Contesting with Olding for the 3rd choice slot.

I expect O'Connor to sign. I'm hoping for a good NIQ signing- Humphreys has pulled rabbits out of hats before and we need one; we basically need a good 6 to play instead of Ferris in the Pro12 as I see it. Ferris will only be wheeled out on big occasions from now on due to some dodgy knees. We need a guy who can fill his shirt on a weekly basis.

So NOC left as 2nd choice and is happy to return as 3rd choice? I guess he must have accepted the fact he is no better than a squad player after battling with Nikora and then have Connacht bring Dan Parks in.

In saying that, if on the very rare occassion, we have to play NOC between Pienaar and Wallace, I doubt it would be the end of the world.

Are we really going to bring in a 2nd choice NIQ backrow? Ulster Rugby moving Brian to Acadamy, and bringing in a proven young talent coach. Makes me think Ulster are gearing up to put belief firmly in our young talent.

I know it makes us nervous, that we won't do as well next year, but ultimatly the end goal has to be for Ulster to perform without the reliance on NIQs. If we see Birch and Henderson become top class, I don't care who if the NIQ is a nobody. But it is a risk. We dont want a step backwards. And I imagine Anscombe especially will not want a step backwards after the outcry of or handling of Brian!

Well with Parks and Nikora my understanding it could have been 3rd choice at Connacht anyway.

Plus I reckon he will learn more from Pienaer than he would from Parks.
Fact is he is a player who is just short of the class required and maybe he has recognized that and would rather be 3rd choice at home than in Connacht.

Gibson wrote:What about S&M Ladyboys huh? Dont we have a say?

No bother Gibbo, S&M Ladyboys should have no bother getting in an orange lodge... just use your Dutch address....

Anyone else think O'Connor isn't a bad signing?

I'd like to see Henderson play 6 in the Rabo in place of Ferris.

I'm ok with NOC signing. He is only 3rd choice.
It allows us to release McKinney for 2 years to play in the English 1st Division.
McKinney will develop far more playing there than stagnating in the sub standard AIB

Why not play McKinney in the Rabo geoff?

Surely the ideal would be Jackson and Pienaar in the HEC, McKinney in the Rabo and NOC in the Ravens/ AIB and covering injury.

What about Luke Marshall? Isn't he playing 10 for Ballymena?

So Rodders you only want Jackson involved in potentially six games next season (plus three if we qualify).
That will really help his development.

Jeez some of the suggestions on here amaze me

No Rava of course not but Jackson can't play every single game, there should be plenty of opportunity for both him and McKinney, even with NOC there, thats my point.

This doesn't get any better! How can Humphreys think that Ulster will get through a season with the callow Jackson, the already overworked Pienaar (who's a 9), and a 3rd choice Connacht reject as options for one of the most important positions on the pitch?

This is like crime in a multi-storey carpark - wrong on so many different levels.

Rava wrote:So Rodders you only want Jackson involved in potentially six games next season (plus three if we qualify).
That will really help his development.

Jeez some of the suggestions on here amaze me

Goodness me Rava, nitpicking much? I'm sure Rodders was splitting the options up in a very general/loose way. Give him some credit!

I'm happy with NOC, lets just focus on the hope we have in Jackson.

I've been saying it for a long time. I personally am a firm believer that young talent can benefit hugely when coaches show strong faith in them. I have no issue with either of Jackson or Henderson playing as much as possible next year. Anscombe could make these guys and others future stars!

Yeah Rava give me some credit ya bollix! ....

The Great Aukster wrote:This doesn't get any better! How can Humphreys think that Ulster will get through a season with the callow Jackson, the already overworked Pienaar (who's a 9), and a 3rd choice Connacht reject as options for one of the most important positions on the pitch?

This is like crime in a multi-storey carpark - wrong on so many different levels.

Hes right ya know. Far too exposed and not fair on the youngfella. He needs time to grow. He needs experienced backup, to take the strain with him and to help him grow.

Cant believe Humphreys wont effect it.

IHumph let go and NOC in? Cant believe it.

The Great Aukster wrote:This doesn't get any better! How can Humphreys think that Ulster will get through a season with the callow Jackson, the already overworked Pienaar (who's a 9), and a 3rd choice Connacht reject as options for one of the most important positions on the pitch?

This is like crime in a multi-storey carpark - wrong on so many different levels.

I think this is ridiculously over negative.

You've said before that Ruan is having to work hard babysitting Jackson. Do you think Humphreys wasnt being babysat in every single game he played? The idea that Jackson cannot hold his own, and can't keep it up for a full season, is completly unfounded!

clivemcl wrote:I'm happy with NOC, lets just focus on the hope we have in Jackson.

That's my problem with the Ulster approach to the 10 shirt - they are investing in a hope not a reality.

The Great Aukster wrote:

clivemcl wrote:I'm happy with NOC, lets just focus on the hope we have in Jackson.

That's my problem with the Ulster approach to the 10 shirt - they are investing in a hope not a reality.

What is the reality of the past couple of games Jackson played?

Lets clear this up Aukster. Who is better Humph or Jackson?

clivemcl wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:This doesn't get any better! How can Humphreys think that Ulster will get through a season with the callow Jackson, the already overworked Pienaar (who's a 9), and a 3rd choice Connacht reject as options for one of the most important positions on the pitch?

This is like crime in a multi-storey carpark - wrong on so many different levels.

I think this is ridiculously over negative.

You've said before that Ruan is having to work hard babysitting Jackson. Do you think Humphreys wasnt being babysat in every single game he played? The idea that Jackson cannot hold his own, and can't keep it up for a full season, is completly unfounded!

No more unfounded than the idea that he can - he hasn't been through a full season yet.

clivemcl wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:This doesn't get any better! How can Humphreys think that Ulster will get through a season with the callow Jackson, the already overworked Pienaar (who's a 9), and a 3rd choice Connacht reject as options for one of the most important positions on the pitch?

This is like crime in a multi-storey carpark - wrong on so many different levels.

I think this is ridiculously over negative.

You've said before that Ruan is having to work hard babysitting Jackson. Do you think Humphreys wasnt being babysat in every single game he played? The idea that Jackson cannot hold his own, and can't keep it up for a full season, is completly unfounded!

Ah I see we actually agree then, nitpicking aside

clivemcl wrote:
What is the reality of the past couple of games Jackson played?

The reality is we've played 4 and lost 3.

In the game we won I'm not convinced he did very much either.

I'm looking forward to him starting more next season but hes not the finished article yet and can't be relied on to carry us through the whole of next season.