Ulster squad additions

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All things relating to Ulster squad changes

Rodders,

Spoiler:

clivemcl wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

clivemcl wrote:I'm happy with NOC, lets just focus on the hope we have in Jackson.

That's my problem with the Ulster approach to the 10 shirt - they are investing in a hope not a reality.

What is the reality of the past couple of games Jackson played?

Lets clear this up Aukster. Who is better Humph or Jackson?

That's a moot point Clive but I'm not going to criticise Jackson as I think he could be a really good player. The issue is not who is better but whether either of them should be running Ulster from flyhalf. Every other position Ulster have Test quality. On his day Humphreys was Test quality, but far too often it wasn't his day. Jackson may someday be Test quality but he needs experience to get there, so in the meantime he's not. Ask yourself when Humphreys was playing so poorly all season why Jackson didn't get more gametime - even from the bench?

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:
What is the reality of the past couple of games Jackson played?

The reality is we've played 4 and lost 3.

In the game we won I'm not convinced he did very much either.

I'm looking forward to him starting more next season but hes not the finished article yet and can't be relied on to carry us through the whole of next season.

So our 1st choice fly-half has left and we are on a losing streak with Paddy Jackson???

oh no...

does this mean...

again???


ULSTER IN CRISIS!

Clive.........

The Crisis never ended!!!...

I don't understand what all the fuss is about over the re-signing of O'Connor.... we had to find an IQ out-half who was willing to play second fiddle to Paddy Jackson. Unfortunately, there's not many options available.

I expect that NOC will have benefitted from his short sojourn in Connacht and that he'll return an improved and 'refreshed' player. Also, he'll be returning to a better team. Playing behind a strong pack with go forward ball, he won't be asked to win any games single-handedly (on the occasions when he does actually play) but instead he'll be asked to take some pressure off his half-back partner and bring his centres into the game. I'm confident that NOC can do that and in the overall, I think he is an improvement (at least in terms of consistency, physicality and willingness to play back-up to PJ) over iHumph.

Sometimes rather than looking at an individual signing on it's own particular merits, we should look at how it fits within the overall player personnel strategy being implemented by Logan & Humphreys. To that end, it is clear to me that we are in the middle of a period of significant change at Ulster.

Stage 1 required the identification and signing of a number of world class (and I don't use that term lightly) imports who would bring their experience and ability to the club - and who would provide on-field & off-field leadership to the team. Pienaar, Muller and to a lesser extent Wannenburg and Afoa.... stage 1 complete.

Stage 2: clear out the squad of those players who albeit talented are acting as barriers to bringing through players of real potential from our academy. BMcL moving 'downstairs' is part of this strategy - he is truly excellent at developing young rugby talent and we're very lucky to have someone of his experience filling that role for us. Look at the players we are losing this off-season. All bar Pedrie have replacements coming up from the academy that will need to see proper game time in order for management to determine whether or not they are capable of playing to the standard required. While I'd like for us to be able to keep the likes of Porter, Whitten, McKinney and so on, in truth we need to get the likes of Luke Marshall, Peter Nelson, Blane McIllroy, etc. on the field to see what they can do. The production line is ramping up, it will be Anscombe's job to get them on the field and develop them into quality players for Ulster (and hopefully, Ireland). Stage 2.... in progress

Stage 3: Ulster have a largely home grown team of real quality, supplemented by a few world class NIQ imports, playing an exciting brand of rugby and competing for trophies in both the league and HEC, in front of a strong and growing supporter base in a beautifully redeveloped Ravenhill. Stage 3.... an objective requiring a lot of hard work, but one that can be achieved with proper management - and with Humph, Logan, Anscombe, McL I think we can do it!!

Good post UIK....I feel a lot better...crisis is over for now.....

UlsterInKildare,

I agree totally with what you are saying. The immediate question though from some is whether Jackson can play as well or better than Humph for the length of next season. I'd like to hope so, but others have serious difficult believing this will happen.

If they are correct, we may well see that Ulsters form will have to take a temporary dip in order to eventually get through Stage 2 to Stage 3.

Agreed - good post UIK.However there is an assumption that Ulster have to sign an IQ 10. The only logical reason for Ulster not signing a NIQ outhalf is that they can't afford one... maybe the crisis is financial?

UlsterinKildare wrote:Stage 2: clear out the squad of those players who albeit talented are acting as barriers to bringing through players of real potential from our academy. BMcL moving 'downstairs' is part of this strategy - he is truly excellent at developing young rugby talent and we're very lucky to have someone of his experience filling that role for us.

UIK in Anscombe we also have a coach with a history of working with young players and developing them and bringing them through

We have 6 players in the mix for the 10 shirt:

Humphreys
NOC
Jackson
McKinney
Olding
Pienaer

The decision is that 6 is too much and 4 is more than enough.
So which 2 don't you employ

Jackson has the mental strength to cope, has shown he has the raw talent but is very inexperienced. One of the criticisms of him is he will need to be carried, to an extent next year, but that is true of every one on that list.

Humphreys can be a match winner but he can also be a match loser. By some distance he is the worst of the six defensively. He has the most experience. The decision appears to have been made he is not good enough to warrant stifling the development of young talent.

McKinney is behind Jackson in the pecking order so the decision has been made to release him to play 2 years in the English Div 1 (which is more valuable than AIB).

The decision was made that his slot needed to be replaced by a cover player - that player is NOC

Olding is a young lad who is a year or so away from beign a serious contender.

Pienaer is a world class 9 but also a player who can step up to the plate and play games at 10 at HC level.

We also have Marshall and Wallace as further cover.

When you break this down what is that Ulster have done which is so bad, given that a NIQ 10 is not an option.
If McKinney had stayed and we had not signed NOC he would have got very little game time. Jackson needs to play as much as possible. It is the best long term interest of Ulster rugby that McKinney develops in the next couple of years in the English Div 1.

That leaves us with letting oneplayer go permanently - Humphreys.
Yes he can win matches but he has been very poor this year.

He is a defensive joke
He is not above being temperamental
He is mentally fragile
He needs to move over so we see what the younger players can do.

The alternative for him was not him or Jackson it was him or NOC. NOC will accept the limitations of the role Humphreys would not and his demenour would have been detrimental to the squad.

Remember I said that there were seriouly rumbling in the squad about his defence with players being openly crtical. We are a more together squad without him.

Get used to it because this is a management team determined to give youth its head. We will not have 4/5 top NIQ players in our squad, as we have for next year, in 5 years time. Of that I am convinced - I can see 3 being a ceiling in 5 years time for all senior provinces.

The Great Aukster wrote:Agreed - good post UIK.However there is an assumption that Ulster have to sign an IQ 10. The only logical reason for Ulster not signing a NIQ outhalf is that they can't afford one... maybe the crisis is financial?

It is not an assumption it is a fact as I have stated repeatedly.
Money is an issue but that is not the reason we will not get a NIQ 10.

We will get a NIQ backrower because no southerner of the required quality is prepared to move north and the backrow is the one area where we lack the necessary depth

Top post UiK - spot on

The Great Aukster wrote:Agreed - good post UIK.However there is an assumption that Ulster have to sign an IQ 10. The only logical reason for Ulster not signing a NIQ outhalf is that they can't afford one... maybe the crisis is financial?

I thought people always said the IRFU wouldnt allow an NIQ 10? Is this a myth?

If we had the option, no doubt an NIQ 10 would benefit us more.

But I am eager to get to Stage 3 as UIK put it asap.

Realistically speaking an NIQ 10 would be best scenario, but in dreamland, best scenario would be for Jackson to turn around and show he is top class?

Is this too much to hope for?

geoff998rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Agreed - good post UIK.However there is an assumption that Ulster have to sign an IQ 10. The only logical reason for Ulster not signing a NIQ outhalf is that they can't afford one... maybe the crisis is financial?

It is not an assumption it is a fact as I have stated repeatedly.
Money is an issue but that is not the reason we will not get a NIQ 10.

We will get a NIQ backrower because no southerner of the required quality is prepared to move north and the backrow is the one area where we lack the necessary depth

Not sure Geoff, Some people may argue our first choices in 6/7/8 are better first choices than out first choice 10 (jackson). Therefore quality signing at 10 is more important than adding to the depth in backrow.
...some might say.

Aukster is basing his whole argument on the assumption that our backrow options are fine. Let's say Ferris plays 10 games for Ulster next season- thats not a pessimistic assumption by the way, that would be a good outcome- that leaves at least 18 games where our backrowers are Henry, Wilson, Diack, Birch, McComish and Henderson. Not good enough.

We need a backrower more than a 10. We need both, but a backrower is the priority.

I would say that we have more quality and depth at backrow than at 10.

Fly half has been our achilles heal for the past few seasons and unless we sign someone better than Humph then we'll be even weaker.

We've been able to mask that weakness to some extent through a dominant pack and Pienaar going beyond the call of duty but eventually we will get exposed.

Even assuming a NIQ 10 was allowed, which it isn't, are people prepared to go into a season with:

Ferris, Wilson, Henry, Diack, Henderson, Birch, McCormish as our back row options.

We were incredibly lucky with Wannenbergs and Henrys fitness over the last couple of years - we got out of jail free.

With International call ups and injuries we could easily lose 4 of those. We need more depth as a priority

Do people think Ulster will take a step backward next year with Jackson at 10? Thats the major question we all are asking.

People who think our backrow has sufficient depth but 10 doesn't live on a different planet to me.

Tuohy can also cover 6.

Geoff I think our backrow needs strengthend but fly half is our biggest weakness.

geoff998rugby wrote:People who think our backrow has sufficient depth but 10 doesn't live on a different planet to me.

In fairness Geoff, people are talking about an NIQ 10 who would be first choice. The lack of depth in backrow will only be exposed maybe half the seasons games. Any percieved weakness in Jackson will be exposed in every game of the season...

clivemcl wrote:Do people think Ulster will take a step backward next year with Jackson at 10? Thats the major question we all are asking.

Jackson didn't just fall out of the sky, he was already here but not deemed ready to start at 10.

I think Ulster will be weaker without Humphreys if NOC is the replacement. I can't believe anyone can think otherwise.

half the seasons games is enough to totally land you in it.

If we take ferris out of the equation we have Henry, Wilson and Diack as our backrow. Diack was poor for most of the season and he is our 1st reserve. Given how poor we were during the RWC i think a good quality backrower is essential.

clivemcl wrote:Do people think Ulster will take a step backward next year with Jackson at 10? Thats the major question we all are asking.

No. Why should we. We have reached a HC Final on the back of a very poor season for our first choice OH. We have introduced Jackson who will have played a Semi-final and Final of the HC. He will only improve for this experience.
I'm not convinced that NOC will "add" anything but he has been functional in the past and won't be a backward step. We will also have Pienaar and Wallace as alternatives in an emergency.
I don't know anything of Olding but there must be some faith withing the coaching staff.

I agree we need another top class backrower.

rodders wrote:I think Ulster will be weaker without Humphreys if NOC is the replacement. I can't believe anyone can think otherwise.

I think we're weaker without a Humphreys who wanted to be here and wanted to play his rugby here. I don't think he does want to be here and if he's mentally checked out and wants to leave, then holding him to the last year of his contract doesn't make much sense because how well is he going to play under those circumstances anyway?

My biggest regret is that we let James McKinney leave, unfortunately that deal was done before Humphreys dropped this bombshell on the management. Sometimes in rugby you just have to take a chance on a player- especially if there are budgetary constraints and limits on the number of NIQ players you can have,

But is not how it is viewed:

Jackson is replacing Humphries
NOC is replacing McKinney
Olding is replacing Jackson

Converluted I know but NOC for Humphreys is a totally bogus comparison.

We have Wallace sitting as about 5th choice 10 - we dont even have 5 players to cover the backrow and that is three seperate positions not one.
(I thonk the Tuohy experiment has been tried and deemed a failure)

Why talk about a NIQ 10 it is not on the table as option

Rava wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Do people think Ulster will take a step backward next year with Jackson at 10? Thats the major question we all are asking.

No. Why should we. We have reached a HC Final on the back of a very poor season for our first choice OH. We have introduced Jackson who will have played a Semi-final and Final of the HC. He will only improve for this experience.
I'm not convinced that NOC will "add" anything but he has been functional in the past and won't be a backward step. We will also have Pienaar and Wallace as alternatives in an emergency.
I don't know anything of Olding but there must be some faith withing the coaching staff.

I agree we need another top class backrower.

We didnt actually play that well in the Semi though. And many people have noted Ruan was supposedly knackered after babysitting Jackson all day.

Stand, Geoff, do you think Ulster will take a step backward with Jackson at 10?

clivemcl wrote:If we had the option, no doubt an NIQ 10 would benefit us more.

Realistically speaking an NIQ 10 would be best scenario, but in dreamland, best scenario would be for Jackson to turn around and show he is top class?

Is this too much to hope for?

Clive - that's the $64,000 question.... we don't know for sure if Jackson can do it but I think it's obvious that the management are willing to make it 'his job to lose' next season.

It's risky insofar that if he can't make the step up then we will find it very difficult to match the progress shown this season.

But as a young player, Paddy couldn't ask to be in a better situation.

1. He has the support of the club's senior management (i.e. they've given him the job!!)
2. He has a world class 9 playing inside him
3. He has a top-class, highly experienced inside centre playing outside him
4. He is playing behind a strong (sometimes dominant) forward unit
5. He's not being asked to take on place-kicking responsibilities

In truth, you couldn't ask for it to be set up better for him. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that if he can't make it in that scenario, then he'll never make it.... and for what it's worth, I think he'll make it easily

I am glad Jackson is our 10 next year not Humphreys.
I beleive he has the talent.
I believe Irish teams put young players in too much cotton wool.

I also beleive in Pienaer, NOC, Olding, Wallace we have adequate cover

Rava wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Do people think Ulster will take a step backward next year with Jackson at 10? Thats the major question we all are asking.

No. Why should we. We have reached a HC Final on the back of a very poor season for our first choice OH. We have introduced Jackson who will have played a Semi-final and Final of the HC. He will only improve for this experience.
I'm not convinced that NOC will "add" anything but he has been functional in the past and won't be a backward step. We will also have Pienaar and Wallace as alternatives in an emergency.
I don't know anything of Olding but there must be some faith withing the coaching staff.

I agree we need another top class backrower.

+1

We are in a HEC final in large part because of our backrow.

However we are where we are in spite of our 10s.

The concerns about our backrow depth are valid but none of our fly half options are good enough.

I cannot believe after a handful of starts this season people think Jackson is up to starting at 10 all of next season .

UlsterinKildare wrote:

clivemcl wrote:If we had the option, no doubt an NIQ 10 would benefit us more.

Realistically speaking an NIQ 10 would be best scenario, but in dreamland, best scenario would be for Jackson to turn around and show he is top class?

Is this too much to hope for?

Clive - that's the $64,000 question.... we don't know for sure if Jackson can do it but I think it's obvious that the management are willing to make it 'his job to lose' next season.

It's risky insofar that if he can't make the step up then we will find it very difficult to match the progress shown this season.

But as a young player, Paddy couldn't ask to be in a better situation.

1. He has the support of the club's senior management (i.e. they've given him the job!!)
2. He has a world class 9 playing inside him
3. He has a top-class, highly experienced inside centre playing outside him
4. He is playing behind a strong (sometimes dominant) forward unit
5. He's not being asked to take on place-kicking responsibilities

In truth, you couldn't ask for it to be set up better for him. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that if he can't make it in that scenario, then he'll never make it.... and for what it's worth, I think he'll make it easily

+1

SUFTUM!

So if Paddy Jackson gets injured then everyone is happy enough to be starting with NOC in the HEC then?

Its just me that thinks that might be a step backwards??

rodders wrote:We are in a HEC final in large part because of our backrow.

However we are where we are in spite of our 10s.

The concerns about our backrow depth are valid but none of our fly half options are good enough.

I cannot believe after a handful of starts this season people think Jackson is up to starting at 10 all of next season .

rodders in the games he has played have you seen anything to suggest he wouldnt be up too it?
He hasnt been exceptional but he hasn't been poor either
He will have the experience he's gained from the end of this season going into next he'll have a summer to bulk up a bit more preseason and probably the JWC too

One thing that has me optimistic about Jackson, is his defence. He actually makes tackles on big runners. That in itself is a huge plus.

rodders wrote:So if Paddy Jackson gets injured then everyone is happy enough to be starting with NOC in the HEC then?

Its just me that thinks that might be a step backwards??

Nope, for me, Marshall and Pienaar would be next in line for HEC, Then I'd move Wallace to 10 and bring in Spence before I'd use NOC in HEC.

marty2086 wrote:
rodders in the games he has played have you seen anything to suggest he wouldnt be up too it?

I haven't seen enough to suggest that he is, at least not enough to trust him to play all of next season with no top class alternative.

I'd say hes at least 2 seasons away from being up to the standard of starting at 10 in a team which has serious HEC aspirations, which I believe we are.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:One thing that has me optimistic about Jackson, is his defence. He actually makes tackles on big runners. That in itself is a huge plus.

And didnt he rip a ball off a big forward lately? Hugely physical!

Rodders as you state we have carried our 10 this year - for most of this year that 10 has been Humphreys.

It is far better to play next year with a player who has the potential to improve than a player who will never be good enough.

If Jackson is missing a HEC game the chances are that Pienaer wil start at 10 not NOC

I don't believe Jackson is anywhere near as good as an on form humphreys...not even close. If he is then he hasn't shown it yet.

Jackson was totally outplayed at the weekend by Munsters 3rd choice fly half.

Apart from a half decent performance against Leinster, where we lost, what has Jackson done this season to warrant all this hype?

Maybe I'm missing something here but Jackson has only started a handful of games and hasn't exactly set the world alight.

Hes done ok and at 20 has loads of potential but right now he is nowhere near the level needed.

The Munster 3rd fly half was on the front foot, Jackson was feeding of scraps. Other than 1 pass Jackson had a decent game.

You mention Humhreys on form - how many times have we seen that this year - maybe twice. For 3/4 of the games he has played in he has been poor.

He is far too flaky and I honestly believe he is the worst tackler I have ever seen in professional rugby. In the after match analysis he was blamed for every try against Connacht and the one against Munster. Defensively a team cannot be expected to play with a handicap like that.

I agree we do not have a 10 at the club who is good enough to get us to a HC final but somehow we have.

Lets be honest we have over achieved and I do hope people do not get on Anscombe's back next year as I would be gobsmacked if we got anywhere near a HC final next year.

geoff998rugby wrote:The Munster 3rd fly half was on the front foot, Jackson was feeding of scraps. Other than 1 pass Jackson had a decent game.

I accept that but likewise you could argue that Jackson was on the front foot against Edinburgh but did very little.

I'm not knocking Jackson, I think he is very talented has has done well but I don't agree with all this confidence that he is ready to be our main 10 next season with no other quality alternative.

He still needs to prove himself week in week out in the Rabo let alone the HEC and Pienaar and Wallace are not viable alternatives at 10 in my opinon.

Neither is Humphreys

Geoff Humphrey's has picked up more MOTM awards over the past 2 seasons than any other player other than Pienaar. It is nonsence to say he hasn't proved himself.

geoff998rugby wrote:I agree we do not have a 10 at the club who is good enough to get us to a HC final but somehow we have.

Lets be honest we have over achieved and I do hope people do not get on Anscombe's back next year as I would be gobsmacked if we got anywhere near a HC final next year.

Thankfully someone is starting to say it. I believe we havnt much choice. I believe we have to put faith in our youngsters. But I also believe that temporaily this may also see us dropping in form.

But in saying that, we will have Payne and Bowe. We will have Afoa getting more comfortable here. Pienaar and Muller continuing to inspire. A proven young talent coach. And no Rugby World Cup.

It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that we will be on a par with this season, but ultimatly, we are taking a hit here.

The IRFU aren't imposing their rules just to be dictators though. They refuse an NIQ 10 because they want home grown talent to get the chance. And If their tactics prove successful that will be good news for Ireland, Ulster and Jackson.

Clive

Im nervous about Jackson. Or excited depending on my temperament. it is a massively ballsy move to go into next season with him as our top dog. But i agree with Geoff here, throw him in. We can hum and haa and say we havent seen enough to be 100% sure if he can do it etc etc, but we will not know until he gets the chance. He has talent, that much is clear. He wont have the pressure of kicking in the big games. He will be playing between Pienaar and Wallace and behind a pretty no nonsense pack of forwards.

Excuses will be hard to come by for the lad imo. Everything that could be done to give him the best possible chance to succeed has been done and is in place. He needs to deliver. There can be no gameplan whereby we babysit him. No game where he is just popping every ball off to Paddy to cut back like we did in the semi. We have to back 100% and allow him to go out and bring Bowe, Cave, Gilroy, Trimble and Payne into the game. If he throws a few intercepts then so be it but he must be allowed to play his natural game and not be curtailed because 'he is too young'. Give him the backing and i beleive he will deliver. Ulster Rugby seem to be doing everything to give him the backing.

Its a bold move and should be applauded.

Rodders half of humphs MOTM awards are laughable and are only given by lazy pundits. To be honest i will look back fondly on his time at Ulster. we saw some absolute gems from him that we wouldnt have seen with other 10's. Time to move on though.

Standulstermen wrote: He wont have the pressure of kicking in the big games. He will be playing between Pienaar and Wallace and behind a pretty no nonsense pack of forwards.

You see this is the problem...on one hand people are saying he's ready and on the other are assuming that Pienaar and Wallace can carry him.

If Pienaar or Wallace get injured or have international call ups then Jackson will be sandwiched between Marshall and Spence and this is what he needs to be judged against.

This is what I am judging him against, not playing rugby by numbers outside Pienaar.

Out of interest, at this stage, how much is Anscombe consulted? Or not at all? Is it possible that Anscombe has been doing his homework on our squad and he's lifted the phone and gave his backing to Jackson.

As sad as I am to see Brian leave, Jackson couldnt hope for a better qualified coach for him personally in what will be a massive season for him.

Look at Gareth Anscombe, Obviously he is coached by the Blues, but I'd say you could attribute some of his talent and ability to words of wisdom from his old man!

Rodders

being selective with quoting me there. I said he cant just be popping balls off to Paddy and looking at him. he needs to given his head to run the game as he sees fit. The fact that Pienaar and wallace are massively experienced and can talk to him at various points is an advantage though. Paddy wont really feature for Ireland anymore and pienaar isnt going anywhere. I dont think we will see Spence at 12 either.