Ryder Cup - Medina

I for one am pleased that Ozzy has managed to convince the RC comittee to change the qualification criteria for the next battle with the yanks. It should give us the strongest possible team, and make the ET potential team members, really concentrate on achieving a top 5 finish on the list.

"The qualification criteria, beginning at the Omega European Masters at Crans-Sur-Sierre from September 1-4, 2011, and ending at the conclusion of the Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles in 2012, will now see the leading five players from the European points list joined by the leading five players from the World Points List as automatic qualifiers to the European team. This represents a reversal of the two lists with the European points list counting before the world points list.

Olazábal will then add two Captain's picks to complete the 12-man team that will defend the Ryder Cup against the United States".

You never know, we could actually see Martin Laird in the team, and having the players from the world list would mean a lot more experience of playing on Medina type tracks.

So using the new system the 2010 team would have been;

Top 5 euro list

westwood
mcilroy
g-mac
kaymer
poulter

top 5 owgr list (not already qualified)

e. Molinari
Donald
harrington
Rose
f.molinari

So now players lower on the world list who are not high on the european list favoured.

No jimmenez, you would hope he would still have gotten a pick.

Thus given the ascendancy up the OWGR's of the european based players the top of the world list and european list will be very similar. Meaning the top european based players are out of the equation on the world list, higher OWGR list players are picked over those on the cusp of the euro list.

They could again be the same players if the depth of the european tour increaeses. But more likely the players getting through from the world list will be those on the PGA tour who are not at the pinnacle of the OWGR's

Mac, this will mean a completley different mind-set from the ET players I think, because those who would have been in contention under the old system, will now be really fighting to make it in.

Surely, Martin Laird can't play as he is not a member of the European Tour.

Same thing applies to Carl Pettersson.

SetupDeterminesTheMotion wrote:Surely, Martin Laird can't play as he is not a member of the European Tour.

Same thing applies to Carl Pettersson.

Setup, I think you'll find they can mate and laird is now 21st in the world and Scottish

Doc. the qualification rules are:

European Ryder Cup Pages wrote:
(a) The leading five players on The Ryder Cup European Points List (1) at the conclusion of the 2012 Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles. In the event of a tie (equal number of points accumulated), placings will be decided by the player with the higher ranking on The 2012 Race to Dubai at the conclusion of the Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles.

(b) The leading five players, not otherwise qualified (having selected the five players from The Ryder Cup European Points List) from The Ryder Cup World Points List (2) at the conclusion of the 2012 Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles. In the event of a tie (equal number of points accumulated), placings will be decided by the player with the higher ranking on the Official World Golf Ranking.

(c) The Captain, José Maria Olazábal, will choose the remaining two players following the conclusion of the 2012 Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles.

(1) The Ryder Cup European Points List will comprise points (1 point = 1 Euro) earned by a European Tour Member from all officially sanctioned European Tour tournaments on The European Tour Race to Dubai from September 1, 2011 until the conclusion of the Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles in 2012.

(2) The Ryder Cup World Points List will comprise World Ranking Points won by a European Tour Member from each tournament in which he participates from September 1, 2011 until the conclusion of the Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles in 2012. World Ranking Points are allocated to all officially sanctioned tournaments (on any Federated Tour) by the Official World Golf Ranking and are allocated according to the Event Rating of the tournament.

That last rule states that the players on the world points list must also be European Tour Members. So Laird and others who are not ET members cannot qualify. Not sure how that would work for the picks though. Unless of course they have taken up membership this year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/ustour/8408975/Scotlands-Martin-Laird-harbours-Ryder-Cup-aspirations.html

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/25032011/2/golf-made-america-laird-targets-ryder-cup-spot-2012.html

http://www.scottishgolfview.com/2011/03/martin-laird-has-2012-ryder-cup-debut.html

LJ seems theres plenty of articles about him being part of the next team

In order to do so he would need an ET membership however.

Although he has a Cat 8 card right now I don't think it's valid due to the required number of events. He would need to make a much more solid commitment to play on both sides of the pond in order to qualify.

A pick could be different though.

The new selection system will essentially mean the top ten players on the world list are picked, assuming the top 5 are also the top 5 on the euro list.

I guess the question is who will occupy numbers 6-10 on the world list, euro based or pga based players. To answer this question I think we need to analyse where the euro players in the worlds top 5 have picked up most of their OWGR points. This will give a clue as to how the europeans have started to dominate the world rankings.

Not really.

you could have a player holding cards on both major tours... say Rose for example.

He wins 2 or 3 regular US Tour events with no co-sanctioning meaning he's up in 6th spot on the world points list but has a poor showing in Europe and in the co-sanctioned events so doesn't feature on the European list at all.

He'd miss out on an automatic spot on that basis. And it's not that hard to see something like that happening.

LJ I see where you're coming from and it could well happen. Rose is a classic case as he spends most of his time over the pond. So if he doesn't make a showing over here in the limited number of events he starts, he's in trouble again .... unless he gets a captains pick.

Maybe the captain should have 12 picks and take 100% responsibility for win/lose. I appreciate you never get a captain coming out and saying 'not my fault I only chose a couple of players as the rest were sorted out'

LondonJonnyO wrote:Doc. the qualification rules are:

European Ryder Cup Pages wrote:
(a) The leading five players on The Ryder Cup European Points List (1) at the conclusion of the 2012 Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles. In the event of a tie (equal number of points accumulated), placings will be decided by the player with the higher ranking on The 2012 Race to Dubai at the conclusion of the Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles.

(b) The leading five players, not otherwise qualified (having selected the five players from The Ryder Cup European Points List) from The Ryder Cup World Points List (2) at the conclusion of the 2012 Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles. In the event of a tie (equal number of points accumulated), placings will be decided by the player with the higher ranking on the Official World Golf Ranking.

(c) The Captain, José Maria Olazábal, will choose the remaining two players following the conclusion of the 2012 Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles.

(1) The Ryder Cup European Points List will comprise points (1 point = 1 Euro) earned by a European Tour Member from all officially sanctioned European Tour tournaments on The European Tour Race to Dubai from September 1, 2011 until the conclusion of the Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles in 2012.

(2) The Ryder Cup World Points List will comprise World Ranking Points won by a European Tour Member from each tournament in which he participates from September 1, 2011 until the conclusion of the Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles in 2012. World Ranking Points are allocated to all officially sanctioned tournaments (on any Federated Tour) by the Official World Golf Ranking and are allocated according to the Event Rating of the tournament.

That last rule states that the players on the world points list must also be European Tour Members. So Laird and others who are not ET members cannot qualify. Not sure how that would work for the picks though. Unless of course they have taken up membership this year.

Interesting to note they have removed the definitions from the site.
From 2008 http://www.rydercup.com/2008/news/2007/europe/02/02/process020207/index.html
"DEFINITIONS: Membership and Eligibility for The 2008 European Ryder Cup Team.

All European Members of The European Tour, whether Full, Affiliate, Honorary Life or Challenge Tour, are eligible for The 2008 European Ryder Cup Team. Non-Members are not eligible.

Note 1: Points won on The Ryder Cup World Points List and The Ryder Cup European Points List can only be earned by a player whilst a Member of The European Tour (as defined in the preceding paragraph).

Note 2: For points earned on either list to count within any one Official Season a Member must fulfil his Membership obligations* (referred to in Membership Regulation B1(c)) within that Official Season. * In the Official Season in which The Ryder Cup is to be played, if any member has not fulfilled these Membership obligations at the time when The European Ryder Cup Team is selected, he must have committed to play and there must remain sufficient Order of Merit Tournaments in that Official Season for the player to be able to do so.

Note 3: A Non Member taking up Membership of The European Tour for an Official Season that commences during the qualification period, (referred to in paragraph (c) (1) above) can only earn points on either list from the date of the first Order of Merit Tournament of that Official Season or the first Order of Merit Tournament for which the player is a Member of The European Tour, whichever is the latter."

Having had a quick look I couldn't find an up-to-date copy of the 2011 Membership regs but from 2007

"b) To obtain full membership rights, each player who is eligible
for membership for an Official Season must have complied
with the requirements of membership regulation B1(a) as
follows:
Categories 1- 10:
By the final day of the last Order of Merit tournament of
the preceding Official Season.
Categories 11 – 15:
Within seven days of the completion of the Qualifying School
for that Official Season, or prior to the commencement of the
first Order of Merit tournament in which he participates in
that Official Season, whichever is the sooner.
NB. An eligible player wishing to take up membership but
failing to do so by the appropriate deadline will be required
to pay a membership fee of £2,000. The final deadline for
complying with the requirements of membership regulation
B1(a) and paying the increased membership fee of £2,000
shall be May 1st in that Official Season. Players should note
that Order of Merit points and tournaments to count towards
the minimum number each full member must participate in,
as referred to in membership regulation B1(c) will only count
from the date the player becomes a member of the European
Tour
(c) To obtain inclusion in the final 2007 Order of Merit and to
participate in such benefits derived from, a full member in
categories 1-11 inclusive must compete in a minimum of
eleven* Order of Merit tournaments in the 2007 Official Season.
For the purpose of determining these eleven tournaments,
participation in the following tournaments may be counted:
The WGC – Accenture Match play Championship, the US
Masters, the US Open Championship, the Open Championship,
the US PGA Championship, the WGC – Bridgestone Invitational
and the WGC – CA Championship.
*NB. For those members who qualify for and participate in the
2007 HSBC World Match play Championship, the minimum
number of tournaments requirement for inclusion in the final
2007 Order of Merit is twelve.
NOTE:
(i) Any member from within categories 1 to 11, will be removed
from the current Order of Merit, at that time when it
becomes impossible for him to fulfil, by the end of the current
Official Season, the minimum number of tournaments
regulation.
Exception: This number will be lower for any player whose
total of possible playing opportunities is less than eleven.
(ii) Any player eligible for full Challenge Tour membership*
who wishes to be included in the current European Tour
Order of Merit must take up his Challenge Tour
membership prior to competing in his first tournament
counting towards the current European Tour Order of Merit
*Those Challenge Tour members in categories 1-13 or
unranked members who participated in stage 1 and 2 of
the last played Qualifying School.
(iii) In the event of an Affiliate or non-member winning a golf
tournament and becoming immediately eligible for full
membership in categories 1 - 3, the following will apply: -
An Affiliate member will automatically be moved into his
new category of full membership. If a non-member wishes
to take up this membership for the current Official Season,
he must do so either within 14 days of his victory or before
the computation of the Order of Merit following the last
tournament prior to the Volvo Masters, or before competing
in his next Order of Merit tournament, whichever is the
sooner. If he fails to do so, he still retains the right to
commit to membership on the last day of any Official
Season for the following Official Season, provided he still
has at least one year of exemption remaining.
A non member will only be included in the Order of Merit
for the current Official Season, once he has taken up
membership and his Order of Merit position will reflect only
his earnings from his victory onwards. I.e. unless he was
already an Affiliate member, earnings from Order of Merit
tournaments prior to his victory will not be credited to his
Order of Merit position for that Official Season.
To be eligible to compete in the Volvo Masters and be
included in the Final Order of Merit in the current Official
Season, any such winner (either previously Affiliate or non
member) will be required to compete in at least 1/3 (one
third) of the total number of remaining Order of Merit
tournaments* from the time of his victory. (If this amounts
to more than 10, 10 will obviously be the requirement as
this will total 11 with the week of his victory.)
*(For the purposes of calculating the remaining number of
Order of Merit tournaments, only one tournament per
calendar week will be counted)."
http://www.ffgolf.org/multimedia%5Cmedias/10_633323911688139865.pdf

It does go on but I wouldn't surprised if the only things that have altered are that it is now 13 tournaments instead of 11, and sponsors will have changed .

K@S the definitions are here

http://www.rydercup.com/2012/europe/news/New-qualification.cfm

LondonJonnyO wrote:K@S the definitions are here

http://www.rydercup.com/2012/europe/news/New-qualification.cfm

It was just that the 2010 and 2012 sites have removed "DEFINITIONS: Membership and Eligibility for The 20** European Ryder Cup Team...." as per the 2008 site which referred to the membership regs and on a quick look I couldn't find a copy of the European 2011 membership regs.

they recently changed the requirements so that a minimum of 13 tournaments have to be played in order to be a tour member.

LondonJonnyO wrote:Not really.

you could have a player holding cards on both major tours... say Rose for example.

He wins 2 or 3 regular US Tour events with no co-sanctioning meaning he's up in 6th spot on the world points list but has a poor showing in Europe and in the co-sanctioned events so doesn't feature on the European list at all.

He'd miss out on an automatic spot on that basis. And it's not that hard to see something like that happening.

So for that to be true you are predicting a scenario where none of the top 5 players on the euro list are in the top 5 of the world list? Not really possible as given the strength of the european tour right now success on the European tour is coupled with inherent success in the OWGR.

Thats true... but he doesn't need to be in 6th spot. I was using that as an example. There is a clear possibility that someone high on one list is low on the other and misses out on qualifying.

LondonJonnyO wrote:they recently changed the requirements so that a minimum of 13 tournaments have to be played in order to be a tour member.

Yes but if the 2011 regs are similar to the 2007 ones Laird would not need to play 13 qualifying events on the European Tour.

"(c) To obtain inclusion in the final 2007 Order of Merit and to
participate in such benefits derived from, a full member in
categories 1-11 inclusive must compete in a minimum of
eleven* Order of Merit tournaments in the 2007 Official Season.
For the purpose of determining these eleven tournaments,
participation in the following tournaments may be counted:
The WGC – Accenture Match play Championship, the US
Masters, the US Open Championship, the Open Championship,
the US PGA Championship, the WGC – Bridgestone Invitational
and the WGC – CA Championship."

I know it says "may be counted" but not having seen the 2011 regs I will assume it's the same.

Yeah but the point is it will favour those lower on the world list as the top euro's are also the top worl list players at the moment. So the top 4 or 5 on the world list may alreay have qualified through the euro list. meaning players who are 6-10 on the world list have a higher probability of qualifying compared to those 6-10 on the euro list. Assuming they are not the same players.

K@S. those regs say the 11 tournament minimum (which includes co-sanctioned events). So that increases to 13 for 2011. I would imagine he would have to play an additional 5 events in Europe to be eligible.

Mac.

obviously they have the higher chance of qualifying... but that's not to say there isn't the possibility of someone missing it on the basis of poor results on one tour compared to the other.

LondonJonnyO wrote:K@S. those regs say the 11 tournament minimum (which includes co-sanctioned events). So that increases to 13 for 2011. I would imagine he would have to play an additional 5 events in Europe to be eligible.

As a good Scot he has already committed to the Scottish open for starters.

K@S wrote:

LondonJonnyO wrote:K@S. those regs say the 11 tournament minimum (which includes co-sanctioned events). So that increases to 13 for 2011. I would imagine he would have to play an additional 5 events in Europe to be eligible.

As a good Scot he has already committed to the Scottish open for starters.

No such thing as a good Scot. Just a Scot that hasn't gone to prison yet or got it overturned at the European Court.

LJ

Come on you are not seriously saying that in the next 18 months or so all of westwood, Rory, Kaymer, g-mac and casey are going to fall out of the worlds top ten but still remain atop of the euro points list?

Not at all.

But can you also see a pro who is maintaining his spot in the rankings with a few top 3 finishes and a win being behind in terms of ryder cup points on the world list due to the performances of others in co-sanctioned events and as a result missing out because he performed poorly on the European and co-sanctioned events himself?

Come on. Rose was in exactly that position last time. He should have been in there on the basis of form and wins alone. A single list is the only way to do this correctly.

McLaren wrote:So using the new system the 2010 team would have been;

Top 5 euro list

westwood
mcilroy
g-mac
kaymer
poulter

top 5 owgr list (not already qualified)

e. Molinari
Donald
harrington
Rose
f.molinari

Who was in the team that competed at Celtic Manor? Would it have been different?