For Welsh posters in regards to Wales.

This is for the Welsh fans.

Since 2005 Wales have won 3 Grandslams, but the opposite side of the coin is that Wales has been pretty poor every other six Nations tournament.

2004
5/12 wins
Beat Scotland, Italy, Argentina, Romania and Japan.

2005 - Grandslam
9/11 wins
Beat Scotland, France, England, Ireland, Italy, USA, Canada, Fiji and Australia

2006
3/11 wins
Beat Scotland, Pacifi Islands, Canada and draws with Italy and Australia

2007
4/15 wins
Beat England, Argentina, Canada and Japan.

2008 - Grandslam
7/11 wins
Beat England, France, Scotland, Italy, Ireland, Canada and Australia

2009
7/11 wins
Beat Scotland, England, Italy, Canada, USA, Samoa and Argentina

2010
2/12 wins
Beat Scotland, Italy and drew to Fiji

2011
9/17 wins
Beat Scotland, Italy, Ireland, England, Argentina, Samoa, Fiji, Ireland and Namibia

2012 - Grandslam
5/5 wins
Beat Scotland, Ireland, France, England and Italy

Between 2005 and 2008 Wales beat australia twice at home and got a draw once. Those were the only BIG scalps Wales got during that period.

Looking at their record it has truly been either dominating all teams bar the Tri Nation teams, or being absolutely woefull. I am trying to understand why this is the case. It makes little sense that a team can win a Grandslam in 2005 with 9/11 wins for the year an then drop to 3/11 wins the next. After the 2008 Grandslam Wales were relatively solid the next year, albeit only beating lower ranked or similar ranked teams, but then again in 2010 they were woeful with only 2/10 wins beating a struggling Scotland and poor Italy.

Currently things are on the up for Wales with a squad of youngsters and an opportunity for them to beat their "most beatable" SH opponent, but what does Wales have to do differently and what went wrong after the 2005 and 2008 Grandslams that caused Wales to reach such a level of inconsistencies in performance?

It's obviously more complicated that one specific reason but I'll have a crack:

In 2005 the Slam was somewhat of a surprise and resulted in an almightly captiulation that included the coach resigning and the captain nearly killing himself through worry. Somewhat not surprising that results then suffered.

This was followed by perhaps the worst manager in Wales history. Great bloke but completely found out at international level with a "we'll score more than you" strategy.

It took until 2008 for "the great redeemer pt2" to arrive and instills the discipline, work rate and defensive system we so woefully needed. Results improve.

In 2009 the Lions results in a injury ridden 2010. New players, inexperience and lack of both form and confidence.

In 2011 with some of the newer players that have been introduced in 2010 starting to gain some experience we now see some of the benefits.

2012 -> who knows, you could make a soap opera out of welsh rugby....

The team that won the slam in 2005 went on a bender and lost the plot. They got their mojo back when Gatland arrived and sacked popham as an example to the others. However by 2010 that team was getting old and a number of them were way past their best. After the tour to NZ in 2010 Gatland gave the young guns their chance.

In between 05-08 we had serious issues with discipline, morale, coaching, cliques and leaks from the team, fitness club vs country issues, Gavin Henson at his best and worst, Alfies tv meltdown, Rudockgate, Scott the knife taking over, so 4 coaches in 3 years.

Thank god this bunch of players seems relatively grounded and proffessional, its why we are so much more confident.

The guys above have pretty much nailed it. Lack of depth, discipline, and all round professionalism led to Wales having a dreadful couple of years between the first two grand slams. From Gatlands first season in charge to the world cup it was more to do with depth, or a lack of it, as the lions tour left so many with long term, or reoccurring injuries. It's why, for me at least, this Welsh team is totally different. They're all working in the same direction, they're led by a fantastic captain, and they deal with setbacks better than any Welsh team i've seen. During the last 6 nations, we lost our captain to injury in all but one game, the Dr. to injury in the England game, and we were without most of our pack for the Ireland game, yet the players that took over didn't once look out of place. Some, Tipuric and Scott Williams in particular, even enhanced their reputations. Basically, this team is the real deal.

I think it is simple. Strength, depth and the positive impact that regionalisation has had on the game improving the amount of quality young players available to the Regions and to the National team.

Welsh rugby has been improving from the base up. Regionalisation brought with it working academies that encouraged youth talent.

In 2005 we had some very classy players, but lacked strength and depth. 2006 and 07 we had injuries to many key players and struggled. Though as results vs some teams ranked higher than us you can see when we could field a decent team we were strong and the results went our way.

In 2008 we had a fit squad and discarded some deadwood and won another GS. We had better depth but not good enough, especially at regional level. In 09 and 10 we struggled though saying that we were in a position where we were able to win the championship on the last day of '09 and '11. We were hardly wooden-spoon contenders.

2008- 09- 10- 11- 12 sees an exponential annual increase in young talent. Wales becoming a stronger and younger team. This is also starting to effect the Regions who are using less and less foreign players.

The performance difference is most notable for Wales, less so for the regions. There are more young, good players pushing for places than for thirty years previously. This is making players have to fight harder for places in the Welsh squad and the regions. This is also economically viable.

I see Wales as being in contention for the Six Nations championship or another GS next season. I see Wales as having the best chance against the Southern Hemisphere teams since the seventies.

This has been a very exciting decade of resurgence for Wales, A great deal of hard work by the nation from local village coaches right up to the grand schemes have all contributed to better quality rugby in Wales.

We are not there yet. Wales can be better, our regions can be much better so can our clubs and therefor so can our National team too.

Wales were a team of skilful individuals

2005 outrun everyone - same tactic as the 2003 world cup - looks nice but no substance.
Same happened with GHenry - beat SA then Imploded in self worship

And so on...

..until now. There's a different feel at the moment - consistentancy in play and a real sence of continual improvement.

For me the earlier grand slams were built on a strong team rather than squad. A few injuries/retirements/ loss of form and we were back to square one. Where we now look a bit different is that, IMO, the improved world cup showing and 2012 grand slam were built on a squad effort. This squad approach is less susceptible to injuries and loss of form for obvious reasons and should (famous last words) mean we can maintain form this year.

Previously we won them by playing pretty near to our limit but this year we won the GS while being bellow par at times but won the close games due to a much improved mindset.

slartibartfast wrote:Wales were a team of skilful individuals

2005 outrun everyone - same tactic as the 2003 world cup - looks nice but no substance.
Same happened with GHenry - beat SA then Imploded in self worship

And so on...

..until now. There's a different feel at the moment - consistentancy in play and a real sence of continual improvement.

So are we quite sure theres no presence of self worship going on at present? Or is that a term reserved for the eventual fall of grace.

Just hard to tell from postings since the GS. Things seem so clear after the fact but during the ride at the top maybe theres room for some genuine contemplation rather than grandstanding that some cant seem to resist. Though thats also understandable. You have to enjoy the ride.

Interesting how its seen now and how it looks by years end after further validation of this side.

Biltong, I think France under Laporte were a BIG SCALP as you put it.

I don't think up until now that we have had a team that plays for each other as a unit. We have too often relied on some individual brilliance in the past but now we have more than one or two brilliant individuals; I think this is evident by the tries being scored. There is no same player notching them up week in, week out. It varies along the backline.

There is a lot of things you can fathom into our times or meidocrity and just general poor play: coaches coming in and out, injuries to top players when having a limited player pool (no restrictions on NWQ players during these times), persistence with out of form players and out of date tactics. Gatland must take the blame for some of that. I still fear that there is no plan B. Or do many teams also not have a plan B?

One of the positive comments I have heard about the new welsh players is that they are mature for their age, as professionals and as players.

These guys are exposed to regional rugby playing against good squads like Munster, leinster and Ulster as well as the other welsh teams and those they meet in the HEC from a young age eighteen, nineteen. They play so much rugby that by 23-24 they look like much more experienced players than previous years.

It is a model Wales are copying from the southern hemisphere. It is about game time and learning.

Taylorman wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:Wales were a team of skilful individuals

2005 outrun everyone - same tactic as the 2003 world cup - looks nice but no substance.
Same happened with GHenry - beat SA then Imploded in self worship

And so on...

..until now. There's a different feel at the moment - consistentancy in play and a real sence of continual improvement.

So are we quite sure theres no presence of self worship going on at present? Or is that a term reserved for the eventual fall of grace.

Just hard to tell from postings since the GS. Things seem so clear after the fact but during the ride at the top maybe theres room for some genuine contemplation rather than grandstanding that some cant seem to resist. Though thats also understandable. You have to enjoy the ride.

Interesting how its seen now and how it looks by years end after further validation of this side.

Don't tar all welsh with some of the posters on here.

Let us not forget the reason why Wales lost a chunk of those matches were because they were simply beaten on the day by the better team.

The noticeable difference is the consistency Wales have played since the WC warms ups (AUS at home excluded)

Thanks for the responses guys. I have been looking at the squads used in 2005 - 2008 ( it takes a bit of time so I won't be able to do it all in one go.)

Core of the squad for 2005.
Kevin Morgan
Rhys Williams
Tom Shanklin
Gavin Henson
Shane Williams
Stephen Jones
Dwayne Peel
Gethin Jenkins
T.Rhys Thomas
Adam Jones
Brent Cockbain
Robert Sidoli
Ryan Jones
Martyn Williams
Michael Owen (c)
Robin McBryde
John Yapp
Jonathan Thomas
Robin Sowden-Taylor
Mike Phillips
Ceri Sweeney
Hal Luscombe

Core of the squad 2006
Lee Byrne
Mark Jones
Hal Luscombe
Matthew Watkins
Shane Williams
Stephen Jones
Dwayne Peel
Duncan Jones
T.Rhys Thomas
Adam Jones
Ian Gough
Robert Sidoli
Colin Charvis
Martyn Williams
Michael Owen (c)
T.Rhys Thomas
Gethin Jenkins
Jonathan Thomas
Gareth Delve
Mike Phillips
Gavin Henson
Barry Davies

Core of the squad 2007
Kevin Morgan
Mark Jones
Tom Shanklin
Gareth Thomas (c)
Shane Williams
James Hook
Dwayne Peel
Gethin Jenkins
Matthew Rees
Chris Horsman
Ian Gough
Alun-Wyn Jones
Alix Popham
Martyn Williams
Ryan Jones
T.Rhys Thomas
Duncan Jones
Adam Jones
Brent Cockbain
Jonathan Thomas
Mike Phillips
Ceri Sweeney

Core squad of 2008
Lee Byrne
Mark Jones
Tom Shanklin
Gavin Henson
Shane Williams
James Hook
Mike Phillips
Duncan Jones
Huw Bennett
Adam Jones
Ian Gough
Alun-Wyn Jones
Jonathan Thomas
Martyn Williams
Ryan Jones (c)
Matthew Rees
Gethin Jenkins
Ian Evans
Alix Popham
Gareth Cooper
Stephen Jones
Jamie Roberts


These are from the samples I took, 2 games in the Six nations, one mid year match and one Autumn match per year. There were some players that looks like they were more fringe players during this period until in 2008 they came into the first 15 like Jamie roberts, Lee Byrne and a few others.

Now compare that with the 2012 team and see how much it has changed. The only ones from the 2008 team left in the squad are, front five forwards and Phillips, the back row and entire back division haas changed whilst the front five have got more experienced and a but meaner.

Roberts first cap was 08 six nations as a sub on the wing. He was a fullback at the Blues. Byrne, Gethin, Shanklin, Kevin Morgan, Mark Jones and Henson constantly struggled with injuries. They were not consistent selections.

Gatland got the Slam in 08. He knew he needed to change the gameplan, but he left it to the World Cup to do it.

I think the margins in European rugby are so small that you can just as easily finish 4th in the 6 nations as win a grand slam.

Wales could easily of lost the Ireland, England and French games, but scraped through in all of them. For the most part Wales could of won slams every year since 2005 or finished 4th in the final table.

I also think Welsh players are fragile in confidence terms, when the players are fit and playing well and think they can win they can be deadly, but too many injuries and lack of confidence can hurt the Welsh a lot more than most other teams. Each country is different in that respect, any English team regardless of how bad will always think they have a chance of winning any game. France are a bit mental in that they can be brilliant and total cack in the space of a game.

Ireland tend to be solid and consistent, and generally win their games by a moment of brilliance from one player, normally an O'Gara drop goal or a bit of magic from BOD. I also think that's why Ireland are now losing more games, because they haven't replaced like for like in the quality of those 2 match winners. Ireland have a lot of strong players, but no longer really have match winners.

A coach once told me he would rather have 15 decent players with the attidude to WANT to perform than 15 talented individuals not prepared to heed advice or train hard.

I saw this happening with my own experiences where we as a second team lost heavily by a margin of 50 odd points during our first match of a season against the leading team, to losing by only 16 points against the same team at the end of the season.

As we walked off at haltime I heard the captain say to his coach, "this is not the same team we played beginning of the season". He was wrong, it was to a man the same team, all our captain did before the match was call everyone together and implored amongst all of us that becuase this is the last match of the season let's go out there and play as a team with the collective to give them hell.

We knew chances were slim that we could win, but at halftime they only led 20-12, so we believed.

As I read a lot of these explanations some of them seems to sweep over the real issues.

Gameplan is gameplan, but collective effort no matter who is on the field makes a world of difference, slarti spoke of selfworship and perhaps that is the closest to the actual issues.

Mentality forms a big part and that in my view is perhaps the difference that gatland has at last brought to the team, that and as Maes said a maturity.

The welsh team and to a certain extent welsh supporters need to realise this, I was listening to an interview of George north the other day and he seemed to be a pleasant young man with his feet on the ground, he admitted that he hopes to improve a whole lot more and it seems to me Gatland has gotten these boys to understand one swallow doesn't make a summer, and to really call themselves top of the pile they need to be top of the pile, not just the odd winners of the six Nations.

Hopefully they can all remained focus and with their feet on the ground. That I think will ultimately be the difference in being a great team or just another spike in wales rugby history.

This team do seem far more humble as well as focused and ambitious. It's great to see.

The other plus this year is that Wales went in to the 6N as contenders - 2005 and 2008 they were off the radar.

As we're constantly reminded (as if we need to be), Wales can be fragile, the above shows a glimmer of hope.

Id like to play Fiji again (or have a refund). Also Wales played really well against the WC minnows in the group stages - normally we lose the team discipline and take our foot off the gas.

The Inbetweeners - goodness knows what happened in the years after slams but it all seems to have come down to rumours, acusations of unprofessionalism, coaches sitting in cars reading news papers while training, players walking away from sessions for something to eat. Player power - no such thing, senior players should be there to support the coach.

I believe England suffered in the same way last year - there was a rotten core - that's gone and they look a different team.

For Wales to really and truely break the mould they have to keep at the top for a good few years. Honestly i feel they will this time around, I believe this was there best GS win of the lot! England could have been seen to be an easy game this time around. However I feel as though there/we were actually as good as they have been for many years!

I posted my thoughts on this a few weeks back entitled "why wales grand slam was so spectacular".....

Basically, the differences have been mentality/confidence, substance and depth.

Mentality/Confidence: This 6nations, we went in as the favourites, and won the grand slam. Any previous time Wales have been considered favourites, they've flopped to 4th. Ater the world cup, every team knew what wales were going to do, the problem was stopping it.

Substance: How many 'close losses' have we suffered in the past? These seem to be slowly turning into close wins, long may that trend continue. The style of play in the close games was also impressive (for wales), although, I still feel we're not perhaps 'earning the right to go wide' and id like to see the forwards take more responsibility.

Depth: An injury to a frist choice player would have damaged our entire tournament a few years ago, this year, we used 3 different lock combinations and 3 different hookers. Our front 5 have been very good and the replacements have been excellant, Im very excited about the future prospect of Rhys Gill/Owens/Craig Mitchell. I dont think we've ever looked past "what happens if Adam Jones is missing?" before.

Fingers crossed, and make no mistake about any welsh chicken-counting going on, we have everything we need in place to kick-on, Gatland vowed to change the whole welsh game, not just the test team, and I believe we're starting to see the fruits of this and the regional set-up. There will inevitably be highs and lows during the next 4 years, but I dont think I can remember a time where I felt this confident about facing anyone in the world.

2005 - Grand Slam based on lightweight dynamic play with quick offloads
2006 - Significant number of key injuries rendered us unable to compete
2007 - The wisdom of the WRU lead them to appoint Gareth Jenkins
2008 - Gatland arrives and inherits a good squad and another Grand Slam
2009 - Not too bad but not quite the heights of 2008
2010 - Injuries hit us again and Gatland starts to bring in young and fringe players to try to develop some strength in depth - this comes at a price
2011 - See 2010
2012 - Looks like Gatland's plans are bearing fruit with evidence of strength in depth now and I would anticipate that this level is here to stay for the next 4-5 years.

Simples