Conamullenulster! Irelands 5th team?

I was reading the thread about possibly expanding the Pro 12 and it got me to thinking. Now I don't believe Ireland has the resources (playing or financial) to support another team in this league however I do think there is a gap in the market for the following reasons:

1) Our academies are churning out more quality players than ever before
2) The provinces have started losing some good players to English clubs
3) Connacht have actually strengthened in playing personnel to such a degree that the "development" tag doesn't really sit right. Players such as Maguire, O'Donoghue, Jarvis and Loxton can't get much of a look in.
4) Older experienced players can't really wind down and have a year or two at a lower level passing on their valuable experience.

For these reasons and more I feel that we could have a 5th pro team. They could compete in the B&I cup in A club games and after a time the Amlin. Interest in rugby is still on the rise and if a few big name players were thrown in to the mix it could be an attractive option. Imagine Hayes, Quinn or Horgan lining out for a team at this level with a load of upcoming youngsters.

Given the provincial representation at the moment they could be based out of Dubarry Park in Athlone and they would be called Conamullenulster. Alternatively they could be based in North Dublin. It would boost the profile in the area hugely.

Well whadya think?

I say just buy out London Irish, move the players there, and exiles. be great to farm out props to to learn in a scrumaging league, before returning.

Actually I know this article is a mess about, but I'd like the IRFU to build ties to London Irish again, if players wish to leave Ireland have a player release agreement with LI for this, and have them source second generation Irish players like they used to, don't know how this would sit with the RFU but hey ho

Didn't Conor O'Shea try that one before? He wanted the IRFU to fund the LI academy in return for producing Irsih players but it would have meant wrapping up Connacht so the IRFU declined.

O'Shea too the hump and LI severed all ties with the IRFU.

I'd say that ship has sailed and for the record I think investing in Connacht has proved the right move although wasn't so sure at the time.

We need to get Connacht in proper working order. Thats our priority.

red_stag wrote:We need to get Connacht in proper working order. Thats our priority.

+1.

And by the looks of things, it is starting to happen. Their squad next season, will pose all the teams in the PRO12 real problems. They are building real depth in most positions now.
Fans are starting to pile into the new improved ground too. Over 7,000 v Munster. Regular crowds like that would be a plus. They could be looking at mid-table next year. Heady-heights. Just need it to snowball for the next 2/3 years. Then stabilise and look for the next rung up. Thus making it a far more attractive proposition to join them as players and to follow them as fans.

I would love to see Connacht become a competitive team - and I agree with Gibson, it is starting now. I was happy they beat the Dragons the other day, which had welsh internationals and 2/3rds of the starting welsh back row playing. I would love to see more players from the other provinces head to Connacht, I am glad Faloon is going there for example, he will be a huge boost to the team IMO.

Willie Faloon will strengthen them further. Elwood and Forshaw(?) have done a fantastic job.

They have a superb defence and are playing with real enterprise in attack.
O'Halloran and Griffin are two of the most exciting young players in the country.

They are making great strides for sure but with only 3 HEC spots we do have a limited capacity to expose players to top level rugby.

roddersm wrote:Willie Faloon will strengthen them further. Elwood and Forshaw(?) have done a fantastic job.

They have a superb defence and are playing with real enterprise in attack.
O'Halloran and Griffin are two of the most exciting young players in the country.

They are making great strides for sure but with only 3 HEC spots we do have a limited capacity to expose players to top level rugby.

One of us will just have to win the Heino again then Rodders. Besides, I think the Amlin is a great development competition to get you ready for the HC. Some great teams in it and a lot of teams Connacht can match and/or beat. The Quins HC pool game proved just how good they can be.

I think the move to Connacht is a great idea for Faloon. He could make a name for himself over there IMO.

Gibson wrote:
One of us will just have to win the Heino again then Rodders.

Aww ok Gibson, I suppose we'll do it then.... anything to help a fellow province...

Nathan White is moving there as well. And Faloon is a brilliant signing.

Dont know if any of ye guys remember Ummm, ? But he is gushing at the prospect of next season. They will always be my second team.

Next season

1. Brett Wilkinson
2. Ethienne Reynecke
3. Nathan White
4. Andrew Browne
5. Mike McCarthy
6. John Muldoon
7. Willie Faloon
8. George Nauopu
9. Frank Murphy
10. Dan Parks
11. Tiernan O'Hallornan
12. David McSharry
13. Eoin Griffin
14. Fetu'u Vainikolo
15. Gavin Duffy (c)

16. Adrian Flavin 17. Ronan Loughney 18. Denis Buckley 19. David Nolan 20. Eoin McKeon 21. Paul O'Donohue 22. Niall O'Connor 23. Mark McCrea

Or something like that. That is not a bad team to be fair- no more than midtable at best but moving in the right direction.

Yeah I remember ummm, and what happened bounceriankeatley? Are there any Connacht guys on here?

Yeah very exciting times for them. I am seriously impressed every time I've see them this season. By any standards they are a good side now. Youth and talent in the backs and some real work horses in the pack.

O'Hallaran, McCarthy, Muldoon and Griffin in particular would all push for places in the other provinces.

Feic we have to play them in a few weeks!

Gavin Duffy deserves a mention too, hes having a cracking season.

OK so we all love Connacht. Thats a given. Does anyone see any merit in the OP? Scotland and Wales are contemplating new franchises. I have put forward some reasons why a fifth pro team might be an option. The general consensus is that Connacht have made great strides and should continue on an upward curve.
So IF Connacht become genuine contenders and IF the other accademies continue a supply line that is greater than domestic demand would a new Irish franchise be viable?

No.

Yes I see the merit in the op. Eventually we will need more teams if we want to grow our player base. Not just yet but maybe in a few seasons.

The LI project makes sense but I think the IRFU missed the boat there.

I've heard of a 5th province in Meath mentioned too so that could be an option?

Computer. Gibson says.... No

Rodders, you get me. Eventually if things continue to progress I could see a pro team playing out of North Dublin.

Im a Nort-Soider, Sub. Cant see it happening. Unless you show de X-Factor at HT. As for Meath? Bad enough having them involved in GAA.

Seriously, I think Dublin could have supported 2 teams in a few years, had the bankers not set the country back 20 years. It will take prudence and a lot of careful planning, in order to protect what we have now.

Money's too tight to mention.

Yeah Rodders I think Meath was an ancient province and used to be the 5th province of Ireland.

Have to say I also see merit in the OP and think it is just a matter of time (say 3 to 5 years shall we) before another team is required to accomodate growing talent. Think it would be nice if Meath was resurrected but can also see merit in making it LI across the water if that's possible.

Who knows? A few more years down the line after a 5th team is added there might be a need for a 6th, but maybe geting a bit far ahead of myself now. All the same I do think a few years from now that a 5th team will need to be looked at.

Actually screw getting ahead of myself, I'm now thinking if Rugby grows enough, and the academies keep producing talent, that it would be perfect for Ireland to have 6 teams, 5 home based and one across the water (LI).

I can always dream can't I?

Its important to dream Honeymonster and more teams will be needed down the line.Like Gibson said money is tight an we need to protect what we have.

Lets get all 4 teams to the point were they are challenging for an winning silverware. Leinster are in a great place but Munster and Ulster are rebuilding and Connacht are building. The next 6 weeks will show where all are at.

The IRFU should be more open minded about selecting overseas based players and helping players move away for gametime.

Its not time yet for a 5th or 6th team.

No I don't think it's time yet but definitely a goer for the future!

You're right though we do need all 4 to have a solid base first.

I definitely agree with the sentiment of the OP. Not sure how it would work though. There are a few issues that need would need to be addressed.

The A teams from Munster, Ulster and Leinster all perform well in the B&I. For the whole thing to make sense the 5th Irish team would really need to be playing at a higher level than the current A teams. I'm all for a 5th team but if it doesn't play at the correct level then there's no point.

A second issue is support base. We were very fortunate that at the outset of professionalism we had 4 geographical regions which gave the provincial teams an immediate sense of identity - lines in the sand and depending on which side you stand every person in Ireland knows where their allegiances lie. Identity for the teams and their fans - it is what has made the provinces what they are now. A 5th team won't have this - looking across the pond at our Welsh friends we can see how hard it is for teams to forge allegiances with fans without a "parochial" attachment.

I like the idea of re-creating the link between the IRFU and London Irish. Living in London for the last few years I would definitely become a LI regular if they had more of an Irish influence. Given the increasing number of Irish living in the greater London area there is definitely a market there to make this viable.

This may well be a boat that was missed sometime back but to be fair to the IRFU it was done to ensure the survival of Connacht. At the time this was mooted it was impossible to know that the provinces would gather the momentum which they now have.

Oh well, we might see the other Irish Provence's sweat a little now if their HC places are put in jeopardy by Connacht, how would any of you Ulster/Leinster/Munster supporters feel if you were out muscled by Connacht and had to drop down to the Amlin ? There again, it would be good for the Rabbo, as all the Irish Provence's would have to play their centrally contracted players more to try and guarantee a HC spot.

I've said it before, but I believe the IRFU need to give incentives for players to move to Connacht. Contribute to the salary or something. Look at the likes of Fitz not agreeing terms at Leinster. Someone of his quality at Connacht is the spark it takes, and others will follow. Also I feel strongly that its not good for Ireland to have international squad players who are backup at their provinces.

Look at the abundance of scrum-halves. Surely a Stringer or TOL at Connacht would be ideal solution for everyone.

I'd say a the big three would certainly loan out their youngsters to Connacht if it were possible. Definatly more could be done rather than just allowing them to buy more and more average foreigners.

As for the OP, no, not yet. Connacht can be made to be a strong team with a little effort, but a 5th team at this point would just share out the weakness rather than the strength of the top 3.

I think long term before a '5th' province would be created the IRFU would obviously first look to establish Connacht to a similar standard to the other 3 provinces and then look to develop a Sevens side. This obviously won't help us develop more tightheads but would be a good stepping stone and place to develop young talent. It also would give us a chance to cash in by having a tournament in Ireland and the 2016 Olympics to target, which you would hope, would only further increase rugbys profile in Ireland. I think that Sevens has to put back on the table by the IRFU sooner rather than later. I know its a case of not having the money for it now but I believe the money should go here before any '5th' province.

Very good point on the 7's

Well if you want to start another region, get Pienaar, Muller, Terblanche and a few more Saffers there.

Then I can come manage them, in AFRIKAANS.

Forget it Biltong...that would leave Ulster with no players!.... ....

Sevens' now there is a thought. I know the argument for this again is lack of funds but it could be self sustaining if run correctly.
If for example the Irish leg could coincide with the finals of the summer TAG leagues you could probably double the attendance at the event.
Lets say the event is hosted in the RDS with the tag comp played next door in the main grounds. The semis and finals of the TAG competition could be a curtain raiser to the 7's finals.
Is that too mental? It is isn't it?

roddersm wrote:Forget it Biltong...that would leave Ulster with no players!.... ....

Yeah, but think how much fun I would have with all the south african boys.

biltongbek wrote:

roddersm wrote:Forget it Biltong...that would leave Ulster with no players!.... ....

Yeah, but think how much fun I would have with all the south african boys.

As Graham Norton once said "Ooerrrr"

Submachine wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

roddersm wrote:Forget it Biltong...that would leave Ulster with no players!.... ....

Yeah, but think how much fun I would have with all the south african boys.

As Graham Norton once said "Ooerrrr"

I am suddenly seeing you in a different light biltong...

Sevens is definitely what I would like to see the next professional teams in Ireland be playing.

After that it makes perfect sense to me that the next pro sides be cities. So Leinster would still have the Leinster rugby team but there would be a Dublin side as well. It reflects a natural division that most people in Leinster feel already. Next could be Cork and Belfast.

Mid was the fifth province, made up of what now is Meath and West Meath. The romantic in me would like to see this as a pro team but these counties together would still not have a large population so I don't think that it would be viable.

intotouch what do you mean by theres a natural division in leinster?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:intotouch what do you mean by theres a natural division in leinster?

As in a town country one as with Dublin you have city and country

i dont get ya tec?...

There is NO division in Leinster. In fact, the province is growing in strength - as One, by the day. Dublin is just where we happen to play. Demographics clearly defines this.

The provinces have 1000's of years of History. Way deeper than rugby. Way deeper than Sport itself. A natural divide. Not to be broken up into Cities and/or sub-divided for sport now.

Just look at what has happened with the Welsh regions. It may take another 100 years(sic), just for them to be fully accepted.

We are grand and the envy of many. Lets feed and nourish that fact and never divide it. Ever.

well said gibbo

Maddog wrote:I think long term before a '5th' province would be created the IRFU would obviously first look to establish Connacht to a similar standard to the other 3 provinces and then look to develop a Sevens side. This obviously won't help us develop more tightheads but would be a good stepping stone and place to develop young talent. It also would give us a chance to cash in by having a tournament in Ireland and the 2016 Olympics to target, which you would hope, would only further increase rugbys profile in Ireland. I think that Sevens has to put back on the table by the IRFU sooner rather than later. I know its a case of not having the money for it now but I believe the money should go here before any '5th' province.

+1.

It is sheer folly we dont have a 7's side. Mabye a new coach will encourage it.

Id love it.

Takes money to fund a 7's side. If its available then put it up. If not then the decision not to promote a side is a good one. Better that than an under achieving team that is draining elsewhere better options.

there was an temperary 7's side keith earls and james couglan played for them and the irfu is looking for a permanent side for the olympics in 2016

I hate the idea of a sevens side.

To compete in the World 7s series or the 2016 Olympics the team may be called Ireland, but under their rules of sovereignty would only represent the 26 county ROI. Therefore everyone playing for the team would have to declare for the ROI in the same way that the soccer players have to. Would the IRFU really threaten the traditional political unity of the sport, for a sideshow game that has no tradition or market demand in Ireland?
Even on a practical level -given that Ireland don't produce sprinters and those that do emerge very quickly are learning the XV game by playing full time for the provinces - how on earth would a sevens team be either competitive or justify any investment?


Back on thread the original idea of a 5th team in Ireland wouldn't work. The branding for all four provinces wouldn't work if a fifth team resided in one of them. Why would anyone support a second rate team in salubrious North Dublin, when they can more naturally associate themselves with the Leinster province?

It's true that the provinces are producing more players, yet generally aren't producing props or locks so the quality isn't increasing to the standard that would demand an extra indigenous team. IMO the IRFU should consider an arrangement with a championship team in England. That would be an outlet for players to develop at a reasonable standard and possibly garner some Irish support especially if they were based near London.

Speaking as someone who has family in Wexford I would say that Dublin is seen as it's own entity. Dubliners I know also refer to the "country" as anywhere in Ireland outside of Dublin, whether it's urban or rural. I don't think that having a Leinster and a Dublin rugby team would be difficult for people to adjust to.

Right now I think that there is more work to be done still to bring Leinster rugby to the hearts of all of Leinster. I'd still love to see Leinster play a match or two in Kilkenny sometime like Munster occasionally play in Cork. There are a lot of stereotypes floating around about rugby in Leinster still and no acknowledgement of Leinster's second city.

Great Aukster, if you see sevens as a valueless side show consider the article by Tony Ward on the subject.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/attitude-to-sevens-just-doesnt-add-up-2952946.html

I also hate the idea of splitting the Irish rugby teams representation up but not as much as I hate the reality of Ireland not sending sevens teams to world and olympic competitions. As for sprinters being spotted soon that does not mean that they actually get to play. I would much rather see Fionn Carr for example playing sevens for Ireland than occasionally warming the bench at Leinster. If you hate the game then I doubt that I will convince you of its merits but I do believe that we have enough players to have a decent sevens side as well as our current pro sides.

I think your team should be set up in 2015 as an experiment and used initially as an Irish training team. If I was head of the IRFU I'd send all the best players on loan to this new team for a year prior to the WC. That way we would probably do much better at the WC as we might actually look like we have played together.

Successful international teams often are made up by a majority of one club which is often a huge advantage.

Wales 08 grand slam - Ospreys
SA 09 Tri nations - Bulls?
NZ - Crusaiders

Interesting and valid points of view, from different prospectives here. Like it. Makes for a decent discussion.

On the 7's at the Olympics issue: Our boxing team, our hockey team, our national rugby team - are ONE country entities. Why cant that be the same for the 7's? Is there something I'm missing here? Is it because our setup in the Olympic structure does not allow it? A GB and Ireland separation by the IOC? If so, that is sad and should be challenged on the basis that we have already precedent with our National rugby team. Something the IRFU could get its teeth into for the future. Most Ulster fans (and friends) - I know, would vote for it big time.

As for the Leinster, Country v Dublin City issue. That is dying out fast in my experience and travels with the team over 15 years. It is visibly fading. A strong bond is growing in the fansbase - specially on away HC Tours. Leinster also do a massive amount of work and representation, throughout the province every season at grass roots level. They know how important it is. It feeds the Leinster Way Dream Machine and should always be openly stated and promoted as a 12 county side. Because in my experience - it is.

BUT, I agree with Ausk, in that Leinster should have a PRO12 game or two elsewhere in the province, every season. Spread the rugby love. You would get some grumblings from the D4's, but feic em, its our Province not Donnybrook out there winning HC's. I love meeting with fans from Wexford (best mate and fellow traveller is a Wexford man through & through), Meath, Killkenny, Louth... all over in fact.There are as many Leinster culchies supporting the side as home-based Dubs now.

Im a Dublin born, Cloggie Leinsterfan and have inducted a fair few Leinster fans, from all over the shop - into the fold now. Its gas hearing Germans and Belgs shouting Leinstuuuur , Leinstuuur - in an Irish Pub abroad. Our province is turning into the Barca of European Rugby. Let every Leinster man & woman do his duty.

Dublin does NOT own Leinster. We ALL do.

Believe.

yes gibbo u right it's all a bit like soccer - with club game becoming a business and the international a bit of an old-fashioned relic - -

and Ireland seems to be further down the road than most other countries

Intotouch I don't see sevens as valueless at all - but any benefit pales into insignificance compared to the ramifications for the XV game in Ireland.

For example would the IRFU feel it was only right and proper that any funding they gave to grass roots rugby in Northern Ireland required the same commitment from the players receiving it to declare for the ROI side? This politicisation of the game is a can of worms best left unopened. At the moment there is no question that everyone wants to play for a 32 county nation, because their county is included in it. Heretofore the IRFU have been so politically sensitive as to adopt both an inclusive anthem and flag (whether they were needed or not), so are they really going to do a U-turn on this for a game that will be a significant loss-maker?

Why would someone like Carr even want to play sevens? He is of an age where he should be looking for a full time contract and is good enough to get one albeit outside Ireland. His game wouldn't be developed one iota by the short game, and while he's quick enough for the full game he'd be no more than average pace in 7s.

Carr is a natural-born 7's player imo. As are Conway. Zebo, Gilroy, Macken.. ah name your own provinces skliful speedsters.But they are on the fringe of the full squad now. We'd need to unearth and encourage younger versions into it. It would help bury the perception of Ireland being a one-trick pony. Which we are at present.

But that's another kettle of spanners.
(c) Fast Eddie.

There are obviously loads of issues with 7s but to me it's clearly something that is worth pursuing, especially with olympics in the offing! I think that Connacht has to be prioiritised over next couple years, and another 6 HC games next year would help. But longer term if the game keeps growing in Ireland another professional team in the form of 7's is a must. And as far as the practicalities of it go it's not like we don't have any countries to look at as examples of how it might work.