Conamullenulster! Irelands 5th team?

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the thread about possibly expanding the Pro 12 and it got me to thinking. Now I don't believe Ireland has the resources (playing or financial) to support another team in this league however I do think there is a gap in the market for the following reasons:

1) Our academies are churning out more quality players than ever before
2) The provinces have started losing some good players to English clubs
3) Connacht have actually strengthened in playing personnel to such a degree that the "development" tag doesn't really sit right. Players such as Maguire, O'Donoghue, Jarvis and Loxton can't get much of a look in.
4) Older experienced players can't really wind down and have a year or two at a lower level passing on their valuable experience.

For these reasons and more I feel that we could have a 5th pro team. They could compete in the B&I cup in A club games and after a time the Amlin. Interest in rugby is still on the rise and if a few big name players were thrown in to the mix it could be an attractive option. Imagine Hayes, Quinn or Horgan lining out for a team at this level with a load of upcoming youngsters.

Given the provincial representation at the moment they could be based out of Dubarry Park in Athlone and they would be called Conamullenulster. Alternatively they could be based in North Dublin. It would boost the profile in the area hugely.

Well whadya think?

Matt Williams is a big advocate of getting a 7s team going and seems to think that if we could get one of the 7s championships to played at the aviva it would more than pay for itself. There would only be around 20 people including coaches and medics in the travelling squads and the amount of money and interest that an annual event in the Aviva would more than pay for that. So its not as if it would be drawing money away from Connacht or anywhere else.

The only issue i would have with it is as Aukster pointed out the nationality of the olympic team. Not sure if we could enter the one team or if it would have to be divided.

But even if it was divided then we just dont enter a team for the olympics. We could just compete on the 7s circuit.

Isn't the 7's participation going to be by Union rather than Country - will be a bit flat (and a politcal hot potato) if there is a GB and NI team rather than seperate teams for England, Wales, and Scotland. If thats the case should they play as a "Lions Sevens" team ?

just to clear up the whole debate on players from NI playing for GB in the olympics...the irfu has recently released a statement saying that no player from the north is allowed play for the GB in the olympics becuase they are part of the irfu...therefore they would play with ireland if they want to be involved in the olympics...

Gibson - Yes there are plenty of players from NI who have represented
Ireland at the Olympics, but Ireland in Olympic terms is the 26 county
political entity, so they are actually representing a piece of land
where they haven't been born and probably don't live - many do so out of
expediency as selection for the UK team is often much harder.
Occasionally it works the other way as for Stephen Martin and Jimmy
Kirkwood who always played hockey for Ireland but were picked for
GB&NI for the 88 Olympics and ended up with gold medals, whereas the
Ireland team didn't qualify.

The Olympic Committee insists on
sovereign nations, and so England, Wales and Scotland couldn't enter as
individuals, yet they can do so in the World 7s Series. However that
competition doesn't allow amalgamations and "Ireland" in their terms
could not be formed from one country and part of another one, so it
would have to be officially the Republic of Ireland.

Why does any of that matter?
As
Leinsterfan4life has pointed out, the IRFU do not allow anyone from NI
to play for a GB&NI team. Fair enough as they are the ones investing
the money - except that very stance makes this a political issue.
Politics in Northern Ireland thrives on such anomalies and this would be
just the thing to raise indignation with the precedent shown by soccer
with accusations of betrayal and occasionally death threats. I doubt any
of which would come from rugby fans, but nevertheless would be enough
to tarnish the image of the game and in turn sensible people would be
put off the sport.
OTOH perhaps the politicians will have grown up to
be more egalitarian in their outlook, and by 2016 they won't give a
stuff on the back of a 32 county win at the previous year's RWC! If I
were the IRFU I wouldn't be relying too heavily on the latter and the
suits must know they will be risking at the very least some bad press
and at worst major division in the Union.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:just to clear up the whole debate on players from NI playing for GB in the olympics...the irfu has recently released a statement saying that no player from the north is allowed play for the GB in the olympics becuase they are part of the irfu...therefore they would play with ireland if they want to be involved in the olympics...

Excellent Fan. No obstacle other than sponsorship and the shekels to do it. So. Let's do it IRFU.

The Guinness 7's in Dublin. It works in Amsterdam with the Heineken 7's. Major blast. Lower standard, but a legendary comp all the same.

Ah Ausk, dont bring me down with facts man. If the Body is willing.. the mind will follow.

The IOC (like FIFA) - is an extremely corrupt organisation. Just bung em a few quid and we'll be on the pigs back.

gibbo we will have a 7's team for the olympics dont worrie

Gibson wrote:It works in Amsterdam with the Heineken 7's. Major blast. Lower standard, but a legendary comp all the same.

With a population three times that of Ireland and a major sevens competition that has been running for forty years drawing in the crowds, the Netherlands must have some rugby team by now, or at least a sevens side that will be challenging for medals in 2016? Will Tim Visser give up Edinburgh to go on the Series tour?

The Great Aukster wrote:

Gibson wrote:It works in Amsterdam with the Heineken 7's. Major blast. Lower standard, but a legendary comp all the same.

With a population three times that of Ireland and a major sevens competition that has been running for forty years drawing in the crowds, the Netherlands must have some rugby team by now, or at least a sevens side that will be challenging for medals in 2016? Will Tim Visser give up Edinburgh to go on the Series tour?

Nah man, thats not what the Amsterdam 7's is all about. Teams come from the Pacific Islands, England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Italy - all over. Lots of WC guest players. Its a Festival of rugby and fun.

Ireland could kick something like this off, with the right will and decent sponsorship ( ) Then, build their own team/s on the way. Would take years to build the culture and draw National interest... but small steps.

Lots of rugby teams here in Ned. Crap national team right now but that will change.

we will have a 7's team for the olympics the irfu have confirmed this.

Link Fan? If so, that's brilliant news.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0414/1224294668557.html

Guys,

I really do not see a problem with any rugby player from NI playing for an Irish 7s team.

Rugby here is completely organised on an all Ireland basis. I can't think that any of my son's team mates or friends dream of representing GB at rugby regardless of the number of players on a team.

Our Hockey players, Gymnasts, Track and Field Athletes, Rowers etc all chose which of the Olympic teams to be part of. I think our rugby players would have no issue with it that I can see.

MrsP wrote:Guys,

I really do not see a problem with any rugby player from NI playing for an Irish 7s team.

Rugby here is completely organised on an all Ireland basis. I can't think that any of my son's team mates or friends dream of representing GB at rugby regardless of the number of players on a team.

Our Hockey players, Gymnasts, Track and Field Athletes, Rowers etc all chose which of the Olympic teams to be part of. I think our rugby players would have no issue with it that I can see.

+1.

More complex than Wigglesworth seems to admit. Do an ostrich on it and the compexity might go away, seems to be his opinion.

No problem with the idea of Rep of Ireland IRFU players not playing for a GB side. But there would be a major problem with the IRFU representing itself at the Olympics..... I can't see right now how that can operate as the Olympics operates on a different system than International rugby.

I don't think you could have team GB walking around a stadium with a Union Jack, team Republic of Ireland walking around a stadium with a Tricolour, and team Rugby Ireland walking around a stadium with the IRFU flag! Complex stuff.

But Athetics Ireland represents all the Track and Field athletes here but they compete under the tricolour?

MrsP wrote:But Athetics Ireland represents all the Track and Field athletes here but they compete under the tricolour?

I'd love to see our NI players go to the Olympics under the tricolour banner playing 7s, Mrs P. I really would, but I just think respect for political boundaries will have to be discussed with our neighbours to make it go smoothly for all.

Respect will be the big issue come the time not a Union dictating to players what banner they 'must' play under. Imperatives will spoil things if imposed on players who might have divided loyalties in Olympic terms. But it goes without saying that I'd be proud, and indeed honoured, if all our Northern players gave agreement to playing under a Tricolour.

there is no real need to worrie about it now secretfly cause the IRFU has made their decision...

Never mind 7s we will invent our own game suited to Ireland. We will call it 6.5s

red_stag wrote:Never mind 7s we will invent our own game suited to Ireland. We will call it 6.5s

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0412/1224314640667.html

I am still bemused that anyone thinks this will be an issue for players from NI.

These lads grow up dreaming of playing rugby for Ireland and I really can't imagine that the particular competition or the number of players on the field would have any baring on that dream.

Most sportsmen here are very pragmatic about which vest they wear at the Olympics. At our athletics club we have people who have opted for Ireland and some that run for GB. For some the issue is one of identity while for others it is which team they can get into. Others still have opted for the team which provides them with the best back-up and support. and yet another local athlete has made her decision, I suspect, on the fact that her father wore that vest before her.

I can not emphasise enough how much of an non-issue this would be.

As ever, the people who will kick up a fuss about it have nothing to do with rugby. It's inevitable they will too.

Big debate coming up this week in the Assembly as the Nationalists will propose flying both the Irish tricolour and Union Flag at Stormont. They will be defeated by a Unionist bloc vote but the coverage and incessant whining this will generate illustrates our continuing obsession with flags and symbols in NI.

People will project that onto the Northern players even though I guarantee to a man they'd rather just play rugby! I met the boxer Jim McCourt who competed for Ireland in the Olympics and Northern Ireland in the Commonwealth games. He was saying that in the Olympics in 1964 all the Northern Ireland athletes stuck together despite half of them competing for Britain and half for Ireland.

You see, the divide isn't anything to do with religion. It's to do with the individual sports. Some sports have always competed as an all-Ireland side and flags and tribal loyalties don't come into it. Sports people just want to compete, the flag doesn't matter when the whistle blows.

MrsP wrote:
These lads grow up dreaming of playing rugby for Ireland.

I'm not overly animated by the topic, MrsP - but interested enough to chat about it when it crops up...and it has.

But I know too that Welsh players grow up dreaming of playing for Wales. But I'm assuming the GB shirt will sit easily enough on them at the Olympics. Like I said before, I hope it won't be an issue of differing allegiances for the NI players but it's reasonable to forecast that it could be if handled insensitively.

But anyway, that's enough on the subject from me for now. I'm too happy right now to care about the Olympics!

I can't possibly guess what could have made you happy this evening Fly!



Close match, eh?

yep no point in discussing this anymore cause the IRFU made their decision...

Mrs P - The IRFU have bent over backwards to give the Ireland team an inclusive flag and anthem to emphasize the inclusive 32 county nature of the game. Yet they are now insisting that those playing sevens are representing a 26 county Ireland and must stand under the Tricolour and Amhrán na bhFiann. Do you not think there is an inconsistency there?

It is not the IRFU's fault that they are being forced to field a team that represents only a part of their historical jurisdiction, and who knows what the implications of that will be. However highlighting the differences between the north and south by definition breeds disunity and therefore is something that probably should be avoided.

auks,
the IRFU reprents ireland not GB, the IRFU pays the players wages not the RFU,so how would it make sense that they would play for GB? The GB team would have players from northern ireland playing for them for free and thats not right if we are paying the wages.it happened in golf, both mcilroy and mcdowell (they have both said they are british and have accepted OBE's) played under the tri colour just recently in the world cup...so i dont see what the issue is...

Flags! They are a bleedin nuisance at times. I'd never believe in a flag. I believe in ideals. And I particularly love the fact that the Irish rugby team represents our whole country. It is so special and is above religion, politics and small-mindedness. Makes me so proud and I know it makes most Ulster fans proud too.

Lets lose the flags eh? Or invent a new one. A big Green and Orange Smiley perhaps? Just the IRFU emblem? Yeah that would do.

Who gives a flyin sheet about flags?

well said gibbo, it is above religion and small-mindedness but sadly its not above politics, i dont think we will ever be above politics in the irish team...which is kinda pathetic

The Great Aukster wrote:Mrs P - The IRFU have bent over backwards to give the Ireland team an inclusive flag and anthem to emphasize the inclusive 32 county nature of the game. Yet they are now insisting that those playing sevens are representing a 26 county Ireland and must stand under the Tricolour and Amhrán na bhFiann. Do you not think there is an inconsistency there?

It is not the IRFU's fault that they are being forced to field a team that represents only a part of their historical jurisdiction, and who knows what the implications of that will be. However highlighting the differences between the north and south by definition breeds disunity and therefore is something that probably should be avoided.

No, the IOC are suggesting that. If it was up to the IRFU flags wouldn't come into it. In fact, if it was up to them Sevens wouldn't come into it. We're famously sceptical of the format and we're only humouring the idea because we're scared of missing out on the next big gravy train.

Aha. The Money Flag. Everyone wants to stand under that one.

Gibson wrote:Flags! They are a bleedin nuisance at times. I'd never believe in a flag. I believe in ideals. And I particularly love the fact that the Irish rugby team represents our whole country. It is so special and is above religion, politics and small-mindedness. Makes me so proud and I know it makes most Ulster fans proud too.

Lets lose the flags eh? Or invent a new one. A big Green and Orange Smiley perhaps? Just the IRFU emblem? Yeah that would do.

Who gives a flyin sheet about flags?

Agree 100%.
That's why it's a big mistake that the IRFU are opening up a whole new flag debate driven by populist opinion.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:auks,
the IRFU reprents ireland not GB, the IRFU pays the players
wages not the RFU,so how would it make sense that they would play for
GB? The GB team would have players from northern ireland playing for
them for free and thats not right if we are paying the wages.it happened
in golf, both mcilroy and mcdowell (they have both said they are
british and have accepted OBE's) played under the tri colour just
recently in the world cup...so i dont see what the issue is...

The IRFU represents the ROI and NI, which are separate entities in Olympic terms, and the IOC do not allow countries to compete as amalgamations. I agree that since the IRFU are running the game as an all-island sport and spread their money north and south then they are 100% right to insist that players from Northern Ireland do not play for the UK. Where it gets thorny is if they insist that they play for the ROI. The vast majority of NI players would have no problem playing for the ROI although there will always be a few Davy Tweeds about.


No, the "issue" is at a lower level. If the IRFU's sponsorship of the game is perceived as being conditional on playing for the ROI, then that could turn NI grass roots players away from the game. Firstly some play rugby precisely because it is apolitical, and secondly for those who are political some may refuse to support the ROI. Of course this detrimental effect will only be experienced in the north, and the politically expedient thing for the IRFU to do is to jump on the Olympic bandwagon.

Perhaps it was far to naive to expect them to keep flags out it?

Whats with all this fuss over the olympics? Yous have all lost the plot .

The Olympics is just one competition that involves rugby 7's. It is perfectly feasible for the IRFU to invest more in 7's rugby, which is a great way of developing ball skills, without entering a team in the Olympics.

Not all teams can enter the Commonwealth games for example but it doesn't mean its not worth having a 7's team.

The IRFU introduced an interpro 7's tournament last year so clearly they are starting to see the value in sevens. The likes of IHumph have competed for Ireland at 7's in the past.

All this stuff about the Olympics is a total red herring. If the IRFU enter a team then it is up to the players selected if they want to compete, I suspect very few would turn down the opportunity and if they do then that is their choice.

Don't loads of NI boxers compete for Ireland in the Olympics? Didn't Wayne McCullough, a working class protestant from the Shankill, win a Silver medal for Ireland in Barcelona? I think he even carried the Irish flag FFS.... and that was at the height of the troubles!

Jeebus I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading here! This is a nothing issue.....

Like I said rodders, some people will try and make an issue out of nothing. See above.

Yeah can't believe it Notch, you'd think this is a new thing. All Ireland sports have been competing at the Olympics for yonks. Its a nothing issue .

And in case anyone hasn't noticed, they play Amhran na bhFiann at Ireland home matches anyway- fly the tricolour as well, alongside a yella Ulster flag.

Just out of interest, in practice, how easy is it for a Northern Irish athlete to declare he wants to represent the Rep. of Ireland in the Olympics?

Is he immediately eligible? Or would he have to apply for an Irish passport and/or be an Irish citizen first? Can he have dual citizenship and choose which lump of land on a map to represent? Does it matter whether he pays his taxes to the crooks in London or the crooks in Dublin?

he is immediately eligible because people from NI can have dual citizenship at least i think im not 100% sure... can someone from NI back me up?

Immediately eligible I believe. Nowadays you can just walk into any post office in Northern Ireland and get the forms for an Irish passport, but even before then loads of NI athletes represented Ireland on the Olympic stage. It's pretty much been that way since 1952, long before any kind of political settlement was in place.

There was a lot of problems in the 1930s and 1940s. Boycotts over Northern players being prevented from competing in Irish colours. There was some controversy at the 1948 Olympics in London as whatever body administrates the aquatic sports frowned upon NI athletes representing Ireland and the entire Irish swimming team boycotted the games because two of their Northern team-mates were prevented from competing. I think there was an RTE programme about it recently.

Track and Field athletes would be registered with Athletics Ireland through NI Athletics anyway if they are competing here.

A couple of years ago we had a girl come over to one of the NI and Ulster Champs from England. One of her parents was from here and, although she was already in the English talent development program, she wanted to get her foot in the door in the Irish set up just in case she decided to represent them.

One of our senior athletes just declared for Ireland having been in the junior GB teams as he felt they offered better support for him financially and with medical back up etc.

It really is a complete non issue for sportsmen here.

Gibson wrote:Flags! They are a bleedin nuisance at times. I'd never believe in a flag. I believe in ideals.

Gibson, have you been watching those Captain Planet cartoons again?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQJrovKgrTw

Sweet Divine... Save us from Yanks!

Their mass ignorance really scares me.

Yeah, it's so offensive yet still absolutely hilarious.

"Wait a minute! You can't be forgiving me 'til I've forgiven you first!"

what do people from NI think of all this

I like the way that they go from wanting to detonate a nuclear bomb in each others neighbourhoods to opening a cross community bakery together in just one episode. Thank you Captain Planet.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:what do people from NI think of all this

The Cartoon or the 7s?

roddersm wrote:The Olympics is just one competition that involves rugby 7's. It is perfectly feasible for the IRFU to invest more in 7's rugby, which is a great way of developing ball skills, without entering a team in the Olympics.

The World series have the same rules not allowing amalgamation of countries, however the IRFU could probably have separate ROI and NI sides there!

The Great Aukster wrote:

roddersm wrote:The Olympics is just one competition that involves rugby 7's. It is perfectly feasible for the IRFU to invest more in 7's rugby, which is a great way of developing ball skills, without entering a team in the Olympics.

The World series have the same rules not allowing amalgamation of countries, however the IRFU could probably have separate ROI and NI sides there!

I don't think the IRFU would like to have separate seams. For the same reason Wales and Scotland are uneasy about a GB soccer team. They don't want to set any precedents that could threaten their current structure.

Are you sure the World series would not allow an Ireland team? Isn't it run by the IRB? Why would they allow a 15 man Ireland team but not a 7 man one?