James Haskell and the England Backrow

Just wondering how he is getting on in the Super 15 and whether he may be able to push on in an England shirt after his quite consistently good performances the last few seasons?

I caught a bit of one game he was in and in all honesty I was disappointed, he very much seemed to be going through the motions and looked a bit lost in some parts. I am hoping that as it was an earlier game in the season he was still adjusting to the speed after playing the Japan league. Other thing I noticed is that he seems to have slimmed down a bit, any idea if this is just due to the speed of the league or whether he may have been specifically told to by the coaching staff?

Anyway, I think he has the potential to become a seriously top class back rower and see his season in the super15 as being the making of him.

The last thing I want to ask is where does he fit in the England backrow and who plays where? We now seem to have plenty of backrow options, with Robshaw leading well and doing everything asked of him, Croft finding form, MOrgan coming into his own, Wood soon to be back from injury and now Armitage on fire in Toulon. For me, with all things being equal (form fitness etc) I would go for this;

6. Haskell
7. Armitage
8. Morgan

19. Croft

Harsh on Wood (especially so) and Robshaw but i think this is the most balanced, out and out 7, athletic tackling and carrying 6 (his hands aren't too bad either) and then a big lump at the base. Croft for impact, but to be honest we could have quite a few different combinations and i think most of them would be decent enough. However, against the Welsh, Irish, French and 3N back rows, decent isnt good enough.

Thoughts?

Wasn't overly impressed with him against the stormers though even he wouldnt have expected opposition as strong as that.

Just seemed a bit lost in his positioning and role as a 7. Was actually watching him all first half and found he roamed too much never committing to much for long periods. When he got stuck in he was good.

Hard to say overall as he has worked himself into a starting role in a very good side so perhaps write that one off. Other than thompson and a couple of others the highlanders were all victims of a very impressive stormers.

Agreed on the idea that Haskell Has been going through the motions for the Highlanders ...

That was until the game against the Stormers just gone he actually played really well , won a few turn overs , made some powerful runs and he more than matched the SH forwards for physicality, he made his presence on the Pitch felt and was even involved in a few minor scuffels . I think he was finding it hard to adjust to his new team and the S15 but now he was given a chance to start he is starting to show his true potential.

I would have thought that Lancaster would have been keeping an eye on him, and if he isnt he should be. I would Defiantly take him to SA and give a place in the Midweek team ,thus an opportunity to earn the Jersey back.


A Back row combo of Haskell, Armitage and Morgan would be deadly, but unfortunately i don't see Armitage being picked, it was all well and good retaining Palmer in the Squad but players wont take the "Only Players playing in England will be selected" Policy Seriously if they start selecting French Based Players again.

But hopefully Im wrong.

Taylorman to be fair the players of the Highlanders were well marked during the match, even thompson although he tried his heart out was tackled back on numerous occasions.

Lough it looks like Taylor disagrees with me

I think you meant to call him The Hask™

gowales wrote:I think you meant to call him The Hask

You mean like the Haskellhoff?

Actually think he's doing alright. Reckon it's a bit harsh to say he's going through the motions. That implies he's being lazy, which he isn't when I've seen him. He does some grunt but nothing too flash, but that's ok. I actually like that he's fought his way into a starting position after a few games as second half sub. Jamie J must see something in him. Like others have said, probably a case of adjusting to SH speed and game philosophy, and the stormers were class the other night.

Haskell isn't a 7 so asking him to fill that position and judging him on it is a little harsh I think. I don't think he's done badly but he certainly hasn't set the world on fire.

People should remember though he hasn't had a break since July 2010. He played the long 2011 world cup year European season from Aug 10 - Nov11 and then went straight to Japanese club rugby for a couple of months and then straight into S15 rugby.

People should also remember that our stormers pack is one of the biggest ever assembled either in club or test rugby.... and please note Schalk Burger is still injured.

We weighed in at 930kg... thats probably about 70-80kg more than most S15 packs... in fact I can't remember a world class pack being so big. I remember the commentators saying that couldn't recall Adam Thompson getting smashed backwards so many times during the match.

It would have been tough for anyone out there.

Armitage simply must go to SA...and i think Lancaster is a fan and will take him...

I wouldnt take Haskell to SA

We have some quality at the moment...Wood, Croft, Morgan, Robshaw...

For me the back row..should be...

6 Robshaw / Croft
7 Armitage
8 Morgan

The 6 is a dilema...Croft was excellent in the 6 nations and was a huge factor at the breakdowns slowing ball down...and winning lineout... but is unorthodox...not the physical 6 i like.,..whereas Robshaw has a rediculous workrate and tackles and is a canny linkman....

Providing he is playing fairly well, Haskell will be back in the England setup quite soon.
It just may not be the Summer.
Due to the S15 season, and he could probably do with a rest.

We've finally found a dynamic 8 in Morgan.
Haskell offers the same kind of dynamism, whereas very few of our other options at 8 do.

Haskell can also cover 6 very well.... and potentially 7 too at a push.

If we have Croft, Robshaw, Morgan starting, then Haskell is a good bench option.
You could even have Croft, Armitage, Morgan with Haskell and Robshaw on the bench, if you go for a 5/2 split on the bench.
The other option is going back to the 'Croft covering 2nd row' experiment.... which i'm not too sure about.


Personally, I like the idea of Croft, Armitage, Morgan.
However, realistically, Robshaw is currently Captain and therefore unlikely to be dropped.


I think Lancaster will stick with Croft, Robshaw and Morgan. Probably Wood on the bench

Wasps, that was the other option I was toying with. Morgan and Armitage are big guys so would balance out crofts lack of physicality. Haskell would also work well off the bench as an impact player, then again so would croft. Guess it will all come down to a horses for course scenario, i'm just glad with the strength and depth we are currently developing. There are also plenty of younger lads coming through as well in the prem and in the age groups.

EngInAuck wrote:Lough it looks like Taylor disagrees with me

Id say I was agreeing exactly what you had said. Up until the stormers haskell had done everything right. On and off the field. He made a goal of starting and got there last 3 matches for the reasons you mentioned.

Against the stormers- first half at least- he was largely non committal but as biltong says, the whole team found it difficult.

I think he'll come back stronger next game as thr stormers have raised the bar for all teams and joseph and his team will know this and work thay much harder. Lancaster could do worse and should keep haskell on radar at least. Its pointless limiting options at this stage.

Oops typos...off to work. ..

I think Haskell's proved that his game is improving, and I think his performances in last year's 6N showed that he has a good future on the international stage.
I agree with fa0019, and think that right now his tank must be running on fumes, given how much consistent rugby he has played. Give him a good rest soon, and I think we'll be able to see how much his little rugby tour has taught him and how it has changed his game.

My only concern is that Lancaster seems to have developed an England squad free from egos and arrogance, and that Haskell's return may upset that equilibrium.

The thing that worries me is that we seem to be breeding a lot of multi-purpose back rowers.

Haskell is a 6 / 8 who now plays 7
Robshaw is a 6 who can play 7 and 8 (supposedly)
Wood is a 6 that plays 7
Croft is a 6 that doesn't always play like a normal 6

I can see how being versatile helps the player and the team, and Englands best back row was formed with 2 7's and a 6.
So I can definitely understand how the skills can be transferred.

However, it would be nice for our players to be specialists in their position, and then to have extra skills on top of that.
This is what worries me with players like Haskell, Wood, Robshaw.


It's the Jack of all trades, Master of none thing that worries me.
(However, Croft Haskell Morgan is a back row with so much power and pace that it would be fun to see anyway)

Completely agree Wasps, and it is worrying. I think Haskell deputised well at 7 last year, but don't think he should play there unless it is an emergency. Wood I think is a good 7, but think given his body type, could struggle against the shorter more squat type players, like Pocock, Brussow and even Warburton.

Kvesic and Wallace are good 7 prospects coming through, and Wallace especially is getting good game time at 7. Just hope Kvesic sees more time at 7 soon too, once Warriors backrow injuries have eased off.

bluestonevedder wrote:Completely agree Wasps, and it is worrying. I think Haskell deputised well at 7 last year, but don't think he should play there unless it is an emergency. Wood I think is a good 7, but think given his body type, could struggle against the shorter more squat type players, like Pocock, Brussow and even Warburton.

Kvesic and Wallace are good 7 prospects coming through, and Wallace especially is getting good game time at 7. Just hope Kvesic sees more time at 7 soon too, once Warriors backrow injuries have eased off.

I haven't seen much of Steffon Armitage recently but by all accounts he is pulling up trees in the Top 14.

I note another MOM this weekend and a try to boot.

From what I have seen of him he has a fantastic body shape for a 7 and I think could be what we're missing so this is all very exciting.

Except that….. unless there is an exceptional circumstance he cant play for us and they wont want to set a poor precedent.

SO as brilliant as all this is Steffon Armitage is not interested in playing international rugby.

Saw that as well triangulation- didn't catch the game unfortunately. Steffon's a really great player, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lancaster selected him for the SA tour. He's the 7 that is missing from the England squad, and I think he deserves a chance because he has never really had a consistent chance to prove himself.

The EPS is in a stage of change, and I don't think fully imposing their 'foreign club' rule is in the best interests of the RFU at the moment.

wasps wrote:The thing that worries me is that we seem to be breeding a lot of multi-purpose back rowers.

Haskell is a 6 / 8 who now plays 7
Robshaw is a 6 who can play 7 and 8 (supposedly)
Wood is a 6 that plays 7
Croft is a 6 that doesn't always play like a normal 6

I can see how being versatile helps the player and the team, and Englands best back row was formed with 2 7's and a 6.
So I can definitely understand how the skills can be transferred.

However, it would be nice for our players to be specialists in their position, and then to have extra skills on top of that.
This is what worries me with players like Haskell, Wood, Robshaw.


It's the Jack of all trades, Master of none thing that worries me.
(However, Croft Haskell Morgan is a back row with so much power and pace that it would be fun to see anyway)

I think I said this to you before, but I don't think having a specialist 7 is the be all and end all of modern day rugby. When you look at SA, we have a plethora of back rowers and only one (Brussow) could be classified as a fetcher, yet with the abilities of our backrowers we are still competitive.

Is Armitage even a "natural" 7? He seems more like a link man/ball carrying type of 7 rather than a scavenger.. which isn't a bad thing either, as I agree with biltong. For some reason, 7 seems to be the only position where all players must be the same.

Yes well the Saffas have always bucked the specialist 7 trend. They tend to pick one out and out bruiser on each flank and it works for them.

It is undeniable though that it is a very valuable asset to have.

Did the RWC not teach us this?

Brussow will surely start for SA? particularly against us if we dont have a scavenger. He could have a field day.

And yes i do think Armitage is perfect for the role. His ball carrying is bonus.

His low centre of gravity makes him ideal to get in over the ball and very hard to shift.

Triangulation wrote:Yes well the Saffas have always bucked the specialist 7 trend. They tend to pick one out and out bruiser on each flank and it works for them.

It is undeniable though that it is a very valuable asset to have.

Did the RWC not teach us this?

Brussow will surely start for SA? particularly against us if we dont have a scavenger. He could have a field day.

And yes i do think Armitage is perfect for the role. His ball carrying is bonus.

His low centre of gravity makes him ideal to get in over the ball and very hard to shift.

+1

The RWC taught us that Dusautoir is arguably the best flanker in the world, and managed the NZ back row on his own (for the second world cup in a row). There is no natural 7 in the french back row. They share the scavenging role among the team.

Tri, I don't know mate. Will you be surprised to know that Coenie Oosthuizen young 22 year old prop of the Cheetahs (the same team Brussow plays in) was the player with the most turn overs n the Currie Cup last year, he was also the player with the most first three arrivals at the breakdown?

biltongbek wrote:Coenie Oosthuizen

Didn't he just lose the Master's playoff?

Also, Ireland won the most turnovers in the 6 nations despite having no "natural" 7.. it was a team effort.

bluestonevedder wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Coenie Oosthuizen

Didn't he just lose the Master's playoff?

No mate, that was Louis Oosthuizen.

Of the Capetown Oosthuizens don't you know....

Dan Cole is starting to win a few turnovers for us and of course BOD is the best scavenger the Irish have had for a while so yes it is a team effort...

Still i stand by my comments above.

SOOOO

what chance Steffon Armitage to at least be on the plane to RSA?

Interesting that people are banging the Armitage drum after seeing him play once for Toulon. He's been the best 7 available to England for years and was only given one chance for England against Italy in a very poor team.

bathmad wrote:Interesting that people are banging the Armitage drum after seeing him play once for Toulon. He's been the best 7 available to England for years and was only given one chance for England against Italy in a very poor team.

I thought he had been performing week in week out for toulon?

Why hasnt he had more chances then?

AND DO we think that he will travel to SA? and why / why not ?

Triangulation wrote:Of the Capetown Oosthuizens don't you know....

Dan Cole is starting to win a few turnovers for us and of course BOD is the best scavenger the Irish have had for a while so yes it is a team effort...

Still i stand by my comments above.

SOOOO

what chance Steffon Armitage to at least be on the plane to RSA?

You do realise BOD was injured during the entire 6 nations? SOB made a large contribution despite not being a "natural" 7.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Triangulation wrote:Of the Capetown Oosthuizens don't you know....

Dan Cole is starting to win a few turnovers for us and of course BOD is the best scavenger the Irish have had for a while so yes it is a team effort...

Still i stand by my comments above.

SOOOO

what chance Steffon Armitage to at least be on the plane to RSA?

You do realise BOD was injured during the entire 6 nations? SOB made a large contribution despite not being a "natural" 7.

yes. and yes.

Is the irish back row balanced? Uncle Fester says "no!"

Tbh a backrow from Croft, Morgan, Haskell, Wood, Robshaw & Armitage looks pretty much as good as most nations to me. Just need to get the balance right.

So Ireland make the most turnovers during the 6 nations, despite having no "natural" 7, but still the irish back row lacks balance apparently. In what way is the balance lacking anyway? We have an 8 who isn't performing, yet people still focus on the 7 strangely.

The balance works fine for Leinster btw, and Ferris is basically a better version of McLaughlin..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So Ireland make the most turnovers during the 6 nations, despite having no "natural" 7, but still the irish back row lacks balance apparently. In what way is the balance lacking anyway? We have an 8 who isn't performing, yet people still focus on the 7 strangely.

The balance works fine for Leinster btw, and Ferris is basically a better version of McLaughlin..

I think the Irish backrow is balanced, and they perform very well. They are similar to the Bok backrow (when Brussow isn't playing) because they have no natural fetcher. No one has said O'Brien didn't contribute- of course he did, like every good flanker. All I am personally saying, is that having a natural fetcher, as part of a balanced backrow, is a huge huge asset. We've seen this with the likes of Warbs, Rennie, Pocock, McCaw.

But even those players you mention, are different types of players. Brussow and Pocock I would say are the two most "natural" fetchers, as in they will win the most turnovers for their team and that is their primary job. The likes of Warburton (who was primarily described as a 6.5) and McCaw I think are more rounded players, and McCaw especially has evolved his game as he gets older and loses pace. Rennie is more of a link man than a scavenger, which is perfect for the current Scotland team.

The point is, all these 7s are still totally different players, but they can all compete at the breakdown. Not all still have the pace to get there first either. I would throw Dusautoir and Wallace (one of my favourite players) into the list of fantastic 7s, as they would play the openside role despite not being "natural" fetchers. Armitage is also different from any of the players mentioned. He is a much more attack based 7 than defensive one. Which might suit England perfectly.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Wallace (one of my favourite players) into the list of fantastic 7s

Mine too- something we both whole-heartedly agree on. Great to see him back for Munster at the weekend.

I sort of think we're agreeing Rory...to a point at least.

Armitage I think would suit England right now. Imagine the amount of go-forward that him and Morgan combined would create? Could be good. Hope Lancaster's got his eye on him.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So Ireland make the most turnovers during the 6 nations, despite having no "natural" 7, but still the irish back row lacks balance apparently. In what way is the balance lacking anyway? We have an 8 who isn't performing, yet people still focus on the 7 strangely.

The balance works fine for Leinster btw, and Ferris is basically a better version of McLaughlin..

I think the Irish backrow is balanced, and they perform very well. They are similar to the Bok backrow (when Brussow isn't playing) because they have no natural fetcher. No one has said O'Brien didn't contribute- of course he did, like every good flanker. All I am personally saying, is that having a natural fetcher, as part of a balanced backrow, is a huge huge asset. We've seen this with the likes of Warbs, Rennie, Pocock, McCaw.

+1

bluestonevedder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Wallace (one of my favourite players) into the list of fantastic 7s

Mine too- something we both whole-heartedly agree on. Great to see him back for Munster at the weekend.

I sort of think we're agreeing Rory...to a point at least.

Armitage I think would suit England right now. Imagine the amount of go-forward that him and Morgan combined would create? Could be good. Hope Lancaster's got his eye on him.

I think he would too, and in a similar fashion I think a link man in the mould of Rennie suits Ireland more than a scavenging defensive 7. Also, the back row really does depend on the team as a whole. The reason the welsh back row works is because they have such huge backs. I think the welsh back row would be pretty rubbish for Ireland if I am honest, as we tend to produce smaller more skilful backs, and bigger more physical back rowers. There isn't enough go forward ball produced from the welsh back row, but for Wales that is okay because Roberts etc play that role in the team.

I'd take a fully fireing Haskell every day of the week. On form for me he is Englands best ball carrier except Ben Morgan.

I'd line up with him at 7 or 8 but i can't see him dispatching Ben Morgan or getting ahead of Chris Robshaw and for me England can't afford to drop Croft or Tom Wood from the 6 jersey.

For the South Africa tour i can see England taking

Tom Croft
Tom Wood
Ben Morgan
Chris Robshaw
Steffon Armitage
Nick Easter/Phil Dowsen/Tom Johnson/Matt Kvesic/Jamie Gibson (1 of them)

If Callum Clark wasn't banned i'd have taken him over Nick Easter , Phil Dowsen , Tom Johnson , Matt Kvesic and Jamie Gibson.

Bathmad, Armitage has been in great form for the last few months, picking up motm awards left right and centre. I also think that the rules on foreign based players allowed for "exceptional circumstances" basically a get out clause for the RFU to pick someone in good form. Someone said it earlier that he is more of an attacking 7 than a defensive one. His link play and running is brilliant (he threw a lovely no look pop pass for David Smith to charge through a gap in a game last month) and his work at the breakdown is very very good.

The whole jack of all trades master of none is a vaild one, but if you get the entire backrow working together and all doing their part it makes little difference. Are 3 ok scavengers really that much worse than 1 very good one?

bathmad wrote:Interesting that people are banging the Armitage drum after seeing him play once for Toulon. He's been the best 7 available to England for years and was only given one chance for England against Italy in a very poor team.

Not sure where that came from, or why you're painting everyone with the same brush. I personally have been following him for a while, and the weekend's performance cemented my opinion of him.

bluestonevedder wrote:

bathmad wrote:Interesting that people are banging the Armitage drum after seeing him play once for Toulon. He's been the best 7 available to England for years and was only given one chance for England against Italy in a very poor team.

Not sure where that came from, or why you're painting everyone with the same brush. I personally have been following him for a while, and the weekend's performance cemented my opinion of him.

Not meaning everyone, but Armitage noise has been since the weekend when he was on sky sports. Great to see him enjoying himself and playing well.

I just think he gets a lot more exposure to England fans during these European competitions- hence more England fans become aware of his recent form!

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Tbh a backrow from Croft, Morgan, Haskell, Wood, Robshaw & Armitage looks pretty much as good as most nations to me. Just need to get the balance right.

+1

The talent in that line up for a back row is the best you're going to see at the moment. I personally think people do overlook Robshaw's workrate, the engine he has on him is unfatiguable, and he's consistent. Three qualities that are sadly overlooked a lot today.

AlastairW wrote:

I personally think people do overlook Robshaw's workrate, the engine he has on him is unfatiguable, and he's consistent. Three qualities that are sadly overlooked a lot today.

I think that's what makes him such a good captain. Other players see his work rate and they feed off it. He's a hugely talented and dedicated player, and the perfect man to wear the captain's armband.

What about our second row?

Botha is work horse but lacking in ball carrying grunt?

Parling is the lineout meister but also lacking in ball carrying grunt?

I would like at least one srower i.e botha's spot to be occupied by a ball carrying ruck pile driver of a second rower. Fair enough? Im not knocking Botha either because he does contribute.

But i want to see us clear bodies out of the way and make space that way for our dangerous runners.

Botha I think is a liability. Countless times he knocked on and butchered good field position. His tackling wasn't great either. What he did bring was aggression and a high work rate.

Parling I was very impressed with (I am a Tigers fan!). He was brilliant in the lineout, but also carried well in the loose. He's a converted flanker, so possesses a good carrying game. Despite being of slight stature, he keeps the legs pumping and gets over the gain line. his tackling is also very good. Would like to see Parling partnered with a large, enforcer type player, like Garvey or Attwood...

I agree bluestone, for a small guy (for a 2nd row) he really gets over the gainline, partly because he actually runs at space and with his size he makes a yard or 2 before hes brought down. Would agree with bringing in the likes of Garvey or Attwood, not seen much of garvey bar the Saxons game where he was a level above everyone else then got substituted. That was the last I saw of him in the Saxons so I'm hoping they had decided he was too good and are moving him up to the seniors.

Other 2nd row i would look at is Kitchener, saw him in the Saxons a while ago when he put in 2 great miss passes (one of each hand) to set up tries. Didn't really seem to kick on too much after that but he was great against Worcester. Seems to the the likely replacement for Parling as well, in that they are both lineout operators. Seems weird that a lot of the talk about Lawes is dying down, I'd think he'd do well off the bench as an impact player, now if only he could keep hold of the ball....