Are there two teams in Leinster?

Recent rumblings and mutterings about the Pro 12 teams resting players when they play their league matches has led to calls from other leagues for the Pro12 to be forced to be more competitive to ensure that they can't rest their big players outside of the HC tournament.

Last Saturday in the HC quarter-final, the following line-up was started:

15 Rob Kearney, 14 Isa Nacewa, 13 Brian O'Driscoll, 12 Gordon D'Arcy, 11 Luke Fitzgerald, 10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Eoin Reddan, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 Sean O'Brien, 6 Kevin McLaughlin, 5 Brad Thorn, 4 Leo Cullen (capt), 3 Mike Ross, 2 Richardt Strauss, 1 Cian Healy.
Replacements: 16 Sean Cronin, 17 Heinke van der Merwe, 18 Nathan White, 19 Devin Toner, 20 Shane Jennings, 21 Isaac Boss, 22 Ian Madigan, 23 Fergus McFadden.

The Leinster team announced for Edinburgh in the Pro 12 tomorrow is missing a lot of the players who turned out last week against the Blues.

Leinster: I Nacewa: D Kearney, F McFadden, G D’Arcy, F Carr; I Madigan, I Boss; H van der Merwe, S Cronin, N White, D Browne, D Toner, R Ruddock, S Jennings, J Heaslip. Replacements – R Strauss, J McGrath, M Moore, K McLaughlin, L Auva’a, E redden, N Reid, B Macken.

Nevertheless, this Leinster side has over a half-dozen capped internationals in it despite there being no O'Driscoll, O'Brien, Rob Kearney, Fitzgerald, Sexton, Thorn, Ross, Healy, Cullen.

Are Leinster really fielding a second string side, or do they just have an exceptionally good squad of players?

If you have a top quality squad why not use it, evidently it is working because they are top of the Rabo and in the semis of the HC even more impressive is that there are only two foreign players in the two sides; it will be interesting to see how they do against Edinburgh who are also fielding a weakened team.

Leinster have an exceptionally good squad and rotate their players very well. All of the team that play tomorrow have started, at least, a game in the HCup this year as far as I know.

Only two foreign players in the two sides?

HC Match: Nacewa, Thorn, Strauss started and Van der Merwe, White, Boss (IQ) on the bench.

Pro12: Nacewa, Boss, Van der Merwe, White start and Strauss, L'Auva'a (IQ?) on bench.

Strauss is as good as Irish qualified. He has already been seen in Ireland gear and has trained with the Ireland team.

leinsterbaby wrote:Strauss is as good as Irish qualified. He has already been seen in Ireland gear and has trained with the Ireland team.

He's still undeniably foreign though.

Foreigner to me is someone who lives abroad or a non native living in Ireland who doesn't want to live here.

If he likes it here, has played here for long enough, has an Irish passport and wants to play for Ireland above any other nation then that's enough for me.

the Irish Times calls it a shadow side - only two internationals on the bench

Pot Hale wrote:Recent rumblings and mutterings about the Pro 12 teams resting players when they play their league matches has led to calls from other leagues for the Pro12 to be forced to be more competitive to ensure that they can't rest their big players outside of the HC tournament.

Last Saturday in the HC quarter-final, the following line-up was started:

15 Rob Kearney, 14 Isa Nacewa, 13 Brian O'Driscoll, 12 Gordon D'Arcy, 11 Luke Fitzgerald, 10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Eoin Reddan, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 Sean O'Brien, 6 Kevin McLaughlin, 5 Brad Thorn, 4 Leo Cullen (capt), 3 Mike Ross, 2 Richardt Strauss, 1 Cian Healy.
Replacements: 16 Sean Cronin, 17 Heinke van der Merwe, 18 Nathan White, 19 Devin Toner, 20 Shane Jennings, 21 Isaac Boss, 22 Ian Madigan, 23 Fergus McFadden.

The Leinster team announced for Edinburgh in the Pro 12 tomorrow is missing a lot of the players who turned out last week against the Blues.

Leinster: I Nacewa: D Kearney, F McFadden, G D’Arcy, F Carr; I Madigan, I Boss; H van der Merwe, S Cronin, N White, D Browne, D Toner, R Ruddock, S Jennings, J Heaslip. Replacements – R Strauss, J McGrath, M Moore, K McLaughlin, L Auva’a, E redden, N Reid, B Macken.

Nevertheless, this Leinster side has over a half-dozen capped internationals in it despite there being no O'Driscoll, O'Brien, Rob Kearney, Fitzgerald, Sexton, Thorn, Ross, Healy, Cullen.

Are Leinster really fielding a second string side, or do they just have an exceptionally good squad of players?

Thats what often missed in this dis cusion is the quality in depth of the irish provincial squads. You only have to look at the number of players who didnt initially make it in Provincial rugby who have gone to France and England and been successful

Pot Hale wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Strauss is as good as Irish qualified. He has already been seen in Ireland gear and has trained with the Ireland team.

He's still undeniably foreign though.

And Ross, Cronin & Reddan are from Munster, which is totally foreign to Leinster.

pot hale he meant there was only 2 foreign players in the starting 15...there are 3 foreign players in the rabo team...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:pot hale he meant there was only 2 foreign players in the starting 15...there are 3 foreign players in the rabo team...

"even more impressive is that there are only two foreign players in the two sides..."

Nacewa, White, Thorn, Boss, Strauss and White are all part of the cohort of foreign players in the team. Don't sweat it, it's still impressive.

boss and strauss arent foreign they are irish citizens...

Sin é wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Strauss is as good as Irish qualified. He has already been seen in Ireland gear and has trained with the Ireland team.

He's still undeniably foreign though.

And Ross, Cronin & Reddan are from Munster, which is totally foreign to Leinster.

The last players Leinster signed from Munster were Keogh and Hogan 6 years ago.

no jen hes right they are from munster

LeinsterFan4life wrote:no jen hes right they are from munster

I'm still right though

oh wait ye i get ya now sorry i read your comment wrong...

The 2nd Leinster team would have a good chance of making it out of the groups in the h-cup and would be mid table maybe playoffs in rabo. There're about Cardiff's level.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:boss and strauss arent foreign they are irish citizens...

One was born and grew up in New Zealand. The other in South Africa.

That's foreign in my book, whatever they decided to do about getting other passports later on in life.

if thats the way u want to look at it then fine...how about this then there are only 2 NIQ players in our starting 15 for our HC team does that work?

It's absolutely laughable that any rugby authority could demand a team to pick certain players. The idea that Premiership Rugby or "other leagues" are somehow going to be in a position to pick Leinster's team for Rabo games is maniacal - this argument is now starting to border on the insane.

Artful_Dodger wrote:It's absolutely laughable that any rugby authority could demand a team to pick certain players. The idea that Premiership Rugby or "other leagues" are somehow going to be in a position to pick Leinster's team for Rabo games is maniacal - this argument is now starting to border on the insane.

Not sure where that’s coming from Dodger? Do you mean the whinging that we’ve heard from some of the Premier Rugby officials about how our league is easy so we can rest players?

I wouldn’t pay any heed to it. If there was relegation in the Pro12 we’d still be on top of the pile, we’ve introduced playoffs which makes it even easier for us to fight on two fronts (last year Munster ran away with the league but we still got a shot at the title in a one off game).

In the OP Mickado


"Recent rumblings and mutterings about the Pro 12 teams resting players when they play their league matches has led to calls from other leagues for the Pro12 to be forced to be more competitive to ensure that they can't rest their big players outside of the HC tournament."

Forced to be more competitive in the rabo - ie forcing teams like Leinster to pick certain players in rabo games - ridiculous. This is getting really sad, English clubs demanding that Irish provinces have to pick certain teams in the league so that English clubs can compete better in the HC.

Ah to be fair what’s in the OP is just speculation. If anyone in an official capacity has said that we should be forced to play our best players in the Pro12 then they’re out of their mind, no argument about that. But until I see something more than conjecture I’ll hold my outrage.

It isn’t a new phenomenon, many of the big French clubs have “2nd string sides” and a lot of them have sent out the u12’s for European matches (remember Leinster put 90 points on Bourgoin!?). Any team can play whomever they want in whatever competition they want, we’ll do our thing and they can do theirs and we’ll see them again at the launch of next years HC, we’ll be the ones carrying the cup

Mickado wrote:Ah to be fair what’s in the OP is just speculation. If anyone in an official capacity has said that we should be forced to play our best players in the Pro12 then they’re out of their mind, no argument about that. But until I see something more than conjecture I’ll hold my outrage.

It isn’t a new phenomenon, many of the big French clubs have “2nd string sides” and a lot of them have sent out the u12’s for European matches (remember Leinster put 90 points on Bourgoin!?). Any team can play whomever they want in whatever competition they want, we’ll do our thing and they can do theirs and we’ll see them again at the launch of next years HC, we’ll be the ones carrying the cup

So what do you think McCaffrey, Wray and O'Shea amongst others have been calling for if not for the Pro12 to be more competitive through changing HC qualification to a top 8 league placing?

Pot Hale wrote:
Last Saturday in the HC quarter-final, the following line-up was started:

15 Rob Kearney, 14 Isa Nacewa, 13 Brian O'Driscoll, 12 Gordon D'Arcy, 11 Luke Fitzgerald, 10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Eoin Reddan, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 Sean O'Brien, 6 Kevin McLaughlin, 5 Brad Thorn, 4 Leo Cullen (capt), 3 Mike Ross, 2 Richardt Strauss, 1 Cian Healy.
Replacements: 16 Sean Cronin, 17 Heinke van der Merwe, 18 Nathan White, 19 Devin Toner, 20 Shane Jennings, 21 Isaac Boss, 22 Ian Madigan, 23 Fergus McFadden.

The Leinster team announced for Edinburgh in the Pro 12 tomorrow is missing a lot of the players who turned out last week against the Blues.

Leinster: I Nacewa: D Kearney, F McFadden, G D’Arcy, F Carr; I Madigan, I Boss; H van der Merwe, S Cronin, N White, D Browne, D Toner, R Ruddock, S Jennings, J Heaslip. Replacements – R Strauss, J McGrath, M Moore, K McLaughlin, L Auva’a, E redden, N Reid, B Macken.

Personally I think Leinster could win the HEC,or the Rabo, with either of the above teams.

Pot Hale wrote:

Mickado wrote:Ah to be fair what’s in the OP is just speculation. If anyone in an official capacity has said that we should be forced to play our best players in the Pro12 then they’re out of their mind, no argument about that. But until I see something more than conjecture I’ll hold my outrage.

It isn’t a new phenomenon, many of the big French clubs have “2nd string sides” and a lot of them have sent out the u12’s for European matches (remember Leinster put 90 points on Bourgoin!?). Any team can play whomever they want in whatever competition they want, we’ll do our thing and they can do theirs and we’ll see them again at the launch of next years HC, we’ll be the ones carrying the cup

So what do you think McCaffrey, Wray and O'Shea amongst others have been calling for if not for the Pro12 to be more competitive through changing HC qualification to a top 8 league placing?

I think it's none of their business to be honest. But they can't have any material influence on our team selections, it's been serving us well (particularly this season). Let them say what they want....
8 Pro12 teams means at least 2 more spots for English or French teams, what good would that do them? 1 team in the QFs, none in the SFs and nobody in the Amiln SFs either.

....Its just akin to saying "they are too good, it's not fair"...

Quite sad and laughable really. I always had a good giggle whenever this is propagated by whingers in certain other leagues...

There have been official calls for it, and its pretty embarrassing state of affairs when coaches are calling for their competitors slections to be enforced - very sad.

Also I am fairly sure that Strauss is not an Irish citizen. You do not need to be to play for Ireland.

Anyway, yes Leinster have a very talented second string team. They built it up over time. However I would say Ospreys and Munster both have excellent second teams too. Coming into next season Munster for example have:

W.du Preez, M.Sherry, BJ Botha
D.Ryan, P.O'Connell
P.O'Mahony, J.Coughlan, D.Wallace
C.Murray, R.O'Gara
J.Downey, C.Laulala
K.Earls, F.Jones, D.Howlett

M.Horan, D.Varley, S.Archer
D.O'Callaghan, M.O'Driscoll
T.O'Donnell, D.Leamy, N.Ronan
P.Stringer, I.Keatley
JJ Hanrahan, D.Barnes
S.Zebo, D. Hurley, J.Murphy

The Ospreys at one stage had a huge amount of depth but many of their players such as Byrne, Hook, Henson, Phillips, Collins, Holah etc left in the space of 1 season. But that is the benefit of the Rabo Pro 12. You have a front line team and you develop a base of backup players.

Pot Hale wrote:

Mickado wrote:Ah to be fair what’s in the OP is just speculation. If anyone in an official capacity has said that we should be forced to play our best players in the Pro12 then they’re out of their mind, no argument about that. But until I see something more than conjecture I’ll hold my outrage.

It isn’t a new phenomenon, many of the big French clubs have “2nd string sides” and a lot of them have sent out the u12’s for European matches (remember Leinster put 90 points on Bourgoin!?). Any team can play whomever they want in whatever competition they want, we’ll do our thing and they can do theirs and we’ll see them again at the launch of next years HC, we’ll be the ones carrying the cup

So what do you think McCaffrey, Wray and O'Shea amongst others have been calling for if not for the Pro12 to be more competitive through changing HC qualification to a top 8 league placing?

Same thing I always say, CHANGE YOUR SYSTEM DONT TELL US TO CHANGE OUR ONE.

Let them say what they want. The ERC deals with unions, not leagues. The English and French union have decided that HC qualification should be decided by the league place of the teams in their union, the IRFU and WRU have decided the same.

Mickado - interview in rugbyworld with the ERC chief and he says they will have to look at the situation in the future.

Fair enough, we’ll play it by ear and see what happens. If there are only 8 teams qualifying from the Pro12, I’d love to know where the other places are going to go…

To be fair if they changed the set up of the HC to eight from each league the only differences i'd see would be as follows

From this year HC the only difference would have been another team other then Edin in 1/4

Edin and Glas would have been in the Anlin 1/4 and 1/2 with possible Treviso in the 1/4 as they showed up well against 3 stronger teams then they would have faced in Amlin as lower teams afraid of relegation and teams like per and exter and tolon and SF would not have been in it

in that case I would say that doing 8 from each league with the winners of HC and Amlin in and not counted in that leagues places would result in 9 to 10 teams from the Rabo

the 3 2nd place teams that drop down from the Hc would be the only treat to the Rabo in the Amlin I feel

who thinks that treviso would have topped a Amlin group if you took out toulon, SF, Exter, and Wasps

Rember also they would propably be ranked as a first seed as would all the rabo demoted teams

Is all Euro comp money split between the six nations or is it just the HC with the amlin being shared with the others equally

red_stag wrote:Also I am fairly sure that Strauss is not an Irish citizen. You do not need to be to play for Ireland.

Anyway, yes Leinster have a very talented second string team. They built it up over time. However I would say Ospreys and Munster both have excellent second teams too. Coming into next season Munster for example have:

W.du Preez, M.Sherry, BJ Botha
D.Ryan, P.O'Connell
P.O'Mahony, J.Coughlan, D.Wallace
C.Murray, R.O'Gara
J.Downey, C.Laulala
K.Earls, F.Jones, D.Howlett

M.Horan, D.Varley, S.Archer
D.O'Callaghan, M.O'Driscoll
T.O'Donnell, D.Leamy, N.Ronan
P.Stringer, I.Keatley
JJ Hanrahan, D.Barnes
S.Zebo, D. Hurley, J.Murphy

The Ospreys at one stage had a huge amount of depth but many of their players such as Byrne, Hook, Henson, Phillips, Collins, Holah etc left in the space of 1 season. But that is the benefit of the Rabo Pro 12. You have a front line team and you develop a base of backup players.

In fairness, I wouldn't say much teams would be shaking in their boots looking at that second string.Players such as Danny Barnes,J.Murphy and Hurley have no future.

...not overly impressed by Keatley either.

Players such as Danny Barnes,J.Murphy and Hurley have no future.

Brnes is a good player, but DOC, Horan, Stringer?

Sad to say but it looks a mix of old boys and no namers...

We get it Leinster are better than us.

Currently yes, but that's not the point. Point is that Munster need a major refresh if they are to challenge for anything moving forward....

BoyneRFC wrote:Currently yes, but that's not the point. Point is that Munster need a major refresh if they are to challenge for anything moving forward....

Definitely I agree a million per cent. However its really not all doom and gloom at all. Munster acamdey lads are into the final of the B&I Cup, an entirely new midfield and a new set of coaches all arriving next year. Some good lads coming through.

Munster aren't too bad,they don't have the same squad depth as Leinster but they still have a very good 1st 22.This season Munster have been cursed with injuries and still managed to top their HC group winning every game.

There are key players who will need to be replaced over the next few years but already Ryan has overtaken DoC and O'Mahoney and Ronan both showed the ability to fill Wallaces boots so.

I don't think they'll win the HC again for another few years but they will still be a top 10 team in Europe and a top 2 or 3 in the Rabo.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I don't think they'll win the HC again for another few years but they will still be a top 10 team in Europe and a top 2 or 3 in the Rabo.

This kind of sums it up for me. I don't seem them falling the same way Wasps or Stade Francais have.

I think that there will always be two there or there abouts each year. Ulster and munster will swap every so often but will be always pushing for the 1/4s

They're now out of the B&I Cup and that has allowed them to rotate some good players in around the first XV.

Morgannwg wrote:They're now out of the B&I Cup and that has allowed them to rotate some good players in around the first XV.

To be fair, the B&I cup isn’t that taxing on players in the sense that any of them would have to rest up and miss a Pro12 game because of it.

Munster are in a better place than last year. I know getting beat in Thomond is a big blow but it shouldn't take away from the fact that not only did they qualify from a very tough pool but they did so as unbeaten top seeds.

They are reigning Rabo champs and still in contention to retain their title.

Considering how many injuries they've had this year that is pretty impressive going and shows that they have pretty good depth. Botha has come in and really strengthened the scrum which was a big problem last year.

If they get a bit more luck next year with injury theres no reason they won't be serious HEC contenders.

No but it is giving Dave Kearney, Leo avuva and some others regular rugby so they aren't at all rusty when coming into the Leinster team. I think Leinster manage their players and resources very well.

Morgannwg wrote:No but it is giving Dave Kearney, Leo avuva and some others regular rugby so they aren't at all rusty when coming into the Leinster team. I think Leinster manage their players and resources very well.

I would contend that it’s not that regular and that they might be better served playing with their AIL clubs.

Still, I do see some value in the competition and I was really miffed to find out that we were beaten.