Scarlets and Blues must change name and colours for the good of regional rugby.

I am not sure what this magical plan from the WRU is or if there will be an extra regional or a reshuffle, but I think that the cheapest, easiest and most important thing right now is for the Blues and Scarlets to lose their club identity. They are meant to be regions, not clubs. Everyone is slagging off the Blues at the moment, but the Scarlets are even worse. The Scarlets was the alternative name for Llanelli RFC since time began. Their jerseys look almost the same as they did when it was pre 2003 Llanelli, so what has really changed?

Does anyone even care any more.

I think the Welsh public are bored with regional rugby as can be shown by the crowds that turn up each week. I watched the Dragons on Friday and it was dreadful. The O's and Blues game I turned off at half time.

The product is shoite so any amount of tinkering with colours and names is irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

The Scarlets are currently doing a good job, the Blues are heading down a dark hole. I think if anything the Blues and Dragons should merge to form a South East team and give the Valleys or North Wales a proper region because these 2 are going nowhere fast.

This is bound to happen sooner or later - such is the economic reality of the game now.

Standalone status was a sweet, quaint concept, which might have worked, but didn't. Rather than have this imposed by the WRU, when the debts become unmanageable, I think it would generate huge goodwill if the clubs themselves took the initiative and Llanelli said, for example, 'from now on, we're West Wales' and Cardiff suggested a similar thing with Newport, 'come on fellas, let's be East Wales.'

Then the Ospreys extend a hand of friendship to the new Valleys people and become the 'South'.

It would be BRILLIANT.

Welsh rugby faces the real prospect of most of its top players playing in other leagues within a season or two.

No amount of changing the badge on the rear of the car can hide the fact that the regional teams are performing poorly and have been for some time.

The focus and true measurement of Welsh rugby is on test rugby primarily. It may suit Gatland to have his squad developing and playing in tougher leagues than the playground of the PRO 12. Welsh players get to play in Top14 and in the European Cups. And paying their wages too.

Regional rugby in Wales is all but dead in name. Mr. Lewis and his WRU colleagues had better come up with something radical.

Not enough investment in coaching by the regions. Who was Sean Holley? What did Dai Young ever do?

There's merit in this idea too - let the best ply their trade in England and France and channel what money there is into developing young talent in Wales. An Argentina style model, if you will.

Would also be a step forward.

It's already working.

Grand slam x 3

3rdGrandslamCame wrote:It's already working.

Grand slam x 3

You wish. The first of those slams was in 2005, next in 2008. Quite some time before the current exodus.

I think so,

Grand slam 2010.

Previous slamers missing:

Henson
S Williams
M Williams
S Jones
Peel
Shanklin
Byrne

None of those played, some are in France or England, but we bow have better younger players.

I think the change of fortune in the national team had more to do with fashion than regionalism.

How does having four mediocre regions (okay, the Ospreys were good occasionally) help the national team? It doesn't.

Tight jerseys, fake tan and shaved legs however, came in around the same time - and our boys haven't looked back since. They love that stuff.

The thing is Scarlets seem to be improving in terms of crowds and results. They seem to have done the best job of fusing their old club history and identity to a new region for west Wales.

Cardiff are in meltdown. I'm not sure if the same plan would suit both teams.

I dont believe the picture for the regions is as bad as is been made out.

It is taking time for the Scarlets to build their regional identity but the crowds are gowing steadily albeit slowly. this years performances are an improvement over last year which was an improvement over the previous year.
At the rate they are building I see no concern for their future as a self sufficient region and no need to set things back by changing a growing brand.

The Ospreys invested a load of money without the desired result so are now doing the sensible thing and rebuilding, they have some quality young players coming through and are the most likely threat to an Irish winner in the league again this season. They dont have the same spending power as previously but still have a good brand and probably the biggest fan base of any of the Welsh regions.

Dragons have struggled to hold on to their top players due only to living within their means, whilst doing this they are redeveloping their ground nicely and still bringing through some good young players. they may even hold on to some more of their talent with the other Welsh regions tightening the purse strings.

Blues have gone in to melt down this year and I believe have suffered badly from moving from a Rugby ground they own themselves to a football stadium that is to far outside the City centre and remains less than a third full even after giving away record numbers of free tickets, their problems are of their own making and unless they move back I cannot see the fans backing them.

None of the regions will ever be able to compete with the money available in France, but the same also applies to every other Country in NH rugby, changing the format or shape of the regions will not change that as their simply is not enough money in Wales to compete with a country the size of France with a population of 64,000,000 with 14 teams in the top flight, thats an average potential audience of 4,500,000 each. Wales has 4 top flight teams with a poulation of 3,000,000. there really is no comparison.

2ndtimeround wrote:I dont believe the picture for the regions is as bad as is been made out.

It is taking time for the Scarlets to build their regional identity but the crowds are gowing steadily albeit slowly. this years performances are an improvement over last year which was an improvement over the previous year.
At the rate they are building I see no concern for their future as a self sufficient region and no need to set things back by changing a growing brand.

The Ospreys invested a load of money without the desired result so are now doing the sensible thing and rebuilding, they have some quality young players coming through and are the most likely threat to an Irish winner in the league again this season. They dont have the same spending power as previously but still have a good brand and probably the biggest fan base of any of the Welsh regions.

Dragons have struggled to hold on to their top players due only to living within their means, whilst doing this they are redeveloping their ground nicely and still bringing through some good young players. they may even hold on to some more of their talent with the other Welsh regions tightening the purse strings.

Blues have gone in to melt down this year and I believe have suffered badly from moving from a Rugby ground they own themselves to a football stadium that is to far outside the City centre and remains less than a third full even after giving away record numbers of free tickets, their problems are of their own making and unless they move back I cannot see the fans backing them.

None of the regions will ever be able to compete with the money available in France, but the same also applies to every other Country in NH rugby, changing the format or shape of the regions will not change that as their simply is not enough money in Wales to compete with a country the size of France with a population of 64,000,000 with 14 teams in the top flight, thats an average potential audience of 4,500,000 each. Wales has 4 top flight teams with a poulation of 3,000,000. there really is no comparison.

Llanelli are not a self-sufficient region. They rely on deferred interest local authority funding. Not only are they not repaying this debt - it is increasing rapidly as interest rolls up.

Why haven't the O's the same spending power as previously? They are owned by the same benefactor aren't they? Is he short of cash?

How do you know the Dragons are living within their means? Nobody knows anything about their finances. Mystery. The only reason nobody asks any questions is that they are so obscure and irrelevant.

Blues have gone into meltdown? Yep.

Completely pointless. Blues base is Cardiff. They made the case that that was big enough or them at the start. It's who they set out to represent. Scarlets made the case that prior to 2003 they had already been THE major club in West Wales and had extensive support west of the loughor bridge. Both have carried on representing those specific areas and have made their stand on that basis. Theirs was an easy transition to make in terms of identity. The Dragons eventually came out as pretty much just Newport and the Ospreys after much acrimony are basically now Swansea. All four now represent significant chunks of the welsh rugby heartland. The elephant in the room is ... well I'll leave that to you all to figure.

Tinkering with names and colours will achieve nothing. Engaging with the areas they are supposed to represent is what will bring the fans through the gates. Missionary work is required all round methinks!

2ndtimeround wrote:

None of the regions will ever be able to compete with the money available in France, but the same also applies to every other Country in NH rugby, changing the format or shape of the regions will not change that as their simply is not enough money in Wales to compete with a country the size of France with a population of 64,000,000 with 14 teams in the top flight, thats an average potential audience of 4,500,000 each. Wales has 4 top flight teams with a poulation of 3,000,000, . there really is no comparison.

Oh but there is. By your definition, Welsh regions have an average potential audience of 750,000 each.

If they could start making inroads into those figures, they'd do ok.

The Scarlets recieve no funding from the local authority to my knowledge, perhaps u have something to show otherwise, the debt owed which appears to be about 2M is steadily reducing and is virtually intrest free and owed to the clubs private benefactors who happen to be the main shareholders.

As far as the O's having less cash to go around I can only go on the rumours that Cuddy has tightened the purse strings seeming to fit with the reduced spending.

With regard to the 750,000 available to each club as a potential fan base, the clubs are getting averages of 7.5 k which would be 10% of their potential audience, how many French sides play in front of 45k.

2ndtimeround wrote:The Scarlets recieve no funding from the local authority to my knowledge, perhaps u have something to show otherwise, the debt owed which appears to be about 2M is steadily reducing and is virtually intrest free and owed to the clubs private benefactors who happen to be the main shareholders.

As far as the O's having less cash to go around I can only go on the rumours that Cuddy has tightened the purse strings seeming to fit with the reduced spending.

With regard to the 750,000 available to each club as a potential fan base, the clubs are getting averages of 7.5 k which would be 10% of their potential audience, how many French sides play in front of 45k.

Rugby side Scarlets' council loan repayment deferred

The Scarlets lease the new stadium from Carmarthenshire council Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
£2.6m Scarlets ground loan backed
Scarlets unveil new stadium name
Carmarthenshire council has agreed the Scarlets regional rugby side can defer interest it owes on a £2.4m loan for three years.

The money was made available to the club to help its move to the new Parc y Scarlets stadium two years ago.

The council said it would not cost it anything in the long-term as the interest would be rolled-on...


This sort of stuff is very accessible via Google (other internet search engines are also available).

Another negative article from 3rd grand slam came,
Why does everyone one bite? He clearly isn't welsh just a stirrer impostor.
But whilst on the subject of regional rugby yes I hate it yes it is rubbish but it is here to stay so we all should get used to it.
I personally would settle for substandard levels of play for a few seasons if 1-22 on the team sheet were welsh or at least welsh qualified, but this culture of bringing in poor journey men is a slap in the face for the paying fans.

I spent £22 watching blues v o's last night and unless something changes in regard to the fayre on the pitch I won't be going again

The bars had even run out of pies for goodness sake!!!

Fundamentally it has come down to the quality of rugby on the pitch, there was absolutely no passion and both teams played like amateurs. The skill level and attacking moves were non existent.

The ref was laughable

I cant see how your suggestions would make any difference.

Rugby side Scarlets' council loan repayment deferred

The Scarlets lease the new stadium from Carmarthenshire council Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
£2.6m Scarlets ground loan backed
Scarlets unveil new stadium name
Carmarthenshire council has agreed the Scarlets regional rugby side can defer interest it owes on a £2.4m loan for three years.

The money was made available to the club to help its move to the new Parc y Scarlets stadium two years ago.

The council said it would not cost it anything in the long-term as the interest would be rolled-on...


This sort of stuff is very accessible via Google (other internet search engines are also available).


Without researching it I think you will find the loan you refer to was a bridging loan whilst the Scarlets waited for the money due from the sale of Stradey due to all the legal wrangling that went on. The club has been there since Nov 2008, a little over the 2 years you've quoted.
It is my underatanding that the Scarlets own the Stadium with a leasehold on the ground it stands on with the freehold owned by CCC.

Even if not then on another article on here where someone has researched the clubs accounts it is showing a total deficit of £2.1m, which would indicate that the club is clearing its debts. As I stated earlier the club is becoming self sufficient and well on its way to been debt free.

A name change, a region change or a kit change will not CHANGE what's happening out on the field.

Facts is, regions and in particular Dragons and Blues, just simply aren't good enough. Add to the fact that next year, we will see even fewer of the 'Best players' means its only going to get worse.

This is a great opportunity to blood youngsters, and should increase the emphasis on each youths academy, and also awareness of young players in the welsh prem. It will probably be a massacre in europe with these youngsters, but, in 5 years time or who knows maybe less, they will be better players for it and will be the future of Wales' national team and regions.

Let's stick at it, keep up the support for your regions and lets have a bit of positivity

Unless your a Blues fan like myself and in that case you are allowed to be miserable and enraged by what's happening at the Blues.

viewtothegym wrote:Another negative article from 3rd grand slam came,
Why does everyone one bite? He clearly isn't welsh just a stirrer impostor.
But whilst on the subject of regional rugby yes I hate it yes it is rubbish but it is here to stay so we all should get used to it.
I personally would settle for substandard levels of play for a few seasons if 1-22 on the team sheet were welsh or at least welsh qualified, but this culture of bringing in poor journey men is a slap in the face for the paying fans.

He is Welsh view. An armchair fan, never been to a live match, from down Camarthen who changes username every time he's found out for being full of . The blues just need to go back to the CAP and change the coaches. I can see as an O's fan the change in play and atmos since Tandy took over. The turks are doing fine, some real talent coming thru. The regions will get there eventually. It just needs time, a bit of tweaking and effort. The WRU and regions need to work alot closely instead of interfering and taking players away for money spinning friendlies...

How about a brown kit for cardiff? It would sum up the feelings the local population seems to have toward the region

Just to provide a little clarity on the Llanelli/debt free/self sufficient theory, from the BBC website in Nov 2011;

"Llanelli Scarlets' fans assured over £5.5m rugby debt...The Scarlets rugby side have reassured fans they are not in financial danger despite a £5.5m debt...The Llanelli club's accounts show a loss of almost £3m in the 17 months leading to the end of June 2010, and auditors raised concern for the future.

But new chief executive Mark Davies said the business was on track to start breaking even next season.

He said much of the debt was owed to four club directors who were fully committed to the Scarlets.

Accountants who audited the financial performance of the Llanelli-based regional rugby side said there was "material uncertainty" over its future as a going concern.

The Scarlets borrowed £2.4m from Carmarthenshire council to help finance a move to the Parc y Scarlets Stadium."

Depends on how you define 'self sufficient' I suppose!

Breadvan wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Another negative article from 3rd grand slam came,
Why does everyone one bite? He clearly isn't welsh just a stirrer impostor.
But whilst on the subject of regional rugby yes I hate it yes it is rubbish but it is here to stay so we all should get used to it.
I personally would settle for substandard levels of play for a few seasons if 1-22 on the team sheet were welsh or at least welsh qualified, but this culture of bringing in poor journey men is a slap in the face for the paying fans.

He is Welsh view. An armchair fan, never been to a live match, from down Camarthen who changes username every time he's found out for being full of . The blues just need to go back to the CAP and change the coaches. I can see as an O's fan the change in play and atmos since Tandy took over. The turks are doing fine, some real talent coming thru. The regions will get there eventually. It just needs time, a bit of tweaking and effort. The WRU and regions need to work alot closely instead of interfering and taking players away for money spinning friendlies...

Shows what little you grumpy little computer nerds actually know.

I am from Neath and I've been to plenty of live matches, home and away, club and country.

If you don't like what I write then why do you feel so compelled to join in?

You sound like your 10 years old

"You are or you're", not your. Learn English before calling people juvenile. Great response. You can't even tell I'm Welsh, shows how much you know.

You have no idea how many accounts I have do you?. Half of the articles here are mine.

Start speculating!

This is the Internet not a letter to the queen so I hardly see the point in immaculate presentation of grammar and spelling,
Also your complete lack of life is evident from acting like you are a jedi of 606 by pulling all the strings and taking us all on a bigger mind Fk than Michael Douglas in the GAME

Casartelli wrote:Just to provide a little clarity on the Llanelli/debt free/self sufficient theory, from the BBC website in Nov 2011;

"Llanelli Scarlets' fans assured over £5.5m rugby debt...The Scarlets rugby side have reassured fans they are not in financial danger despite a £5.5m debt...The Llanelli club's accounts show a loss of almost £3m in the 17 months leading to the end of June 2010, and auditors raised concern for the future.

But new chief executive Mark Davies said the business was on track to start breaking even next season.

He said much of the debt was owed to four club directors who were fully committed to the Scarlets.

Accountants who audited the financial performance of the Llanelli-based regional rugby side said there was "material uncertainty" over its future as a going concern.

The Scarlets borrowed £2.4m from Carmarthenshire council to help finance a move to the Parc y Scarlets Stadium."

Depends on how you define 'self sufficient' I suppose!

I tend to define Self Sufficient as been able to pay ones own bills, the Scarlets are developing their own players, covering their own outgoings and paying off their debts.
Would you not class the UK as been self sufficient? the country is in the same position although a slightly worse situation as in the debt continues to increase, would you classify an individual taking out a loan as no longer self sufficient??.
The majority of the Scarlets debt came from building a stadium as a home for a Region, that region is a relatively young buisness that seems to me to be doing reasonably well in relation to its CROI considering the recessed market it is operating in.

How do you define Self Sufficient ?

Multiple accounts and your calling us Nerds?

Being as simplistic about regions as posible here.

A regional side needs to be based where the population is greatest within the region. Therefore whether you call the region covering the west of Wales the Scarlets, Dyfyd Dragons, West Wales Warriors or anything else the side will still be based in Llanelli on the grounds that the population centre of the west of Wales (Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire, and Cardiganshire) is in Llanelli, and the travel links in the area are better for traveling to Llanelli than most other places in the region. The colour of the kit, and the name are not really important.

Boring Boring Boring!

Lets stop arguing about what has gone wrong in the past and build of the four regional teams we have.

Dual contracts for regional players away on Wales duty, so that the regions can afford decent back up players in the squad.
The regions provide the playing resource for the national game, let them have a greater say in the way the game is run.
Slim down the WRU and spend some of the cash on developing the professional game.
Play more games at 3.00pm on a Saturday, televise away games only.

3rdGrandslamCame wrote:I am not sure what this magical plan from the WRU is or if there will be an extra regional or a reshuffle, but I think that the cheapest, easiest and most important thing right now is for the Blues and Scarlets to lose their club identity. They are meant to be regions, not clubs. Everyone is slagging off the Blues at the moment, but the Scarlets are even worse. The Scarlets was the alternative name for Llanelli RFC since time began. Their jerseys look almost the same as they did when it was pre 2003 Llanelli, so what has really changed?

I agree with the sentiment. However the Scarlets are building spectator numbers game on game following the initial blip. Given their population base that is going against the odds.

Perhaps the actual answer would be to knock Cardiff Arms Park down, fill Glanmor's gap and put a decent multi storey car park up on the rest.

To get back on topic I don't think a simple rebranding will change anything.

Scarlets are growing I don't know if changing the way the region is set up (owned by Llanali only, not clubs in the area) will change anything there.

For Cardiff blues change and kit and name will not do anything as they are still owned 100% by Cardiff RFC.

It would take more drastic mearsures than rebranding to sort anything, and it would have to be done by region by region basis, what works for one won't for another.

I don't know about cardiff but the scarlets most people will agree have always been west wales or so we get told. Also it is funny that the two stand alone are the only two to make HC 1/2.

I have another post on Attendances but it seems that Scarlets are going up nicely and if anything are improving their fin position with all increased att and doing better on the field.

The blues is another story but I think there is nothing that a Valleys region or merger would fix.

Are the Os still the best attended.

No, the Scarlets are the best attended of the Welsh regions with attendances growing (if a bit slower then we'd all like)

O's and Blues have decreasing crowds and the Dragons are remaining between the 5-6K mark.

That tells me that Scarlets have no problems growing slowly yes but still growing and did Llanilli ever get out the figure the Scarlets are in the last 20 years.

In Irish soccer in the 70s we got 15k a week but that has changed. What where the highest attendances in the prem the year before the regions happened roughly 4k as an example

Scarlets to play in blue and Cardiff Blues to play in scarlet.
Sorted.

I would say with some of the figures the Scarlets have had this year, we never would have fit those crowd sizes into Stradey. Our crowd sizes are most definitely up on what we were getting in the last few years at Stradey, but it seems a lot of doom sayers about attendances seem to forget that fact!

2ndtimeround wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Just to provide a little clarity on the Llanelli/debt free/self sufficient theory, from the BBC website in Nov 2011;

"Llanelli Scarlets' fans assured over £5.5m rugby debt...The Scarlets rugby side have reassured fans they are not in financial danger despite a £5.5m debt...The Llanelli club's accounts show a loss of almost £3m in the 17 months leading to the end of June 2010, and auditors raised concern for the future.

But new chief executive Mark Davies said the business was on track to start breaking even next season.

He said much of the debt was owed to four club directors who were fully committed to the Scarlets.

Accountants who audited the financial performance of the Llanelli-based regional rugby side said there was "material uncertainty" over its future as a going concern.

The Scarlets borrowed £2.4m from Carmarthenshire council to help finance a move to the Parc y Scarlets Stadium."

Depends on how you define 'self sufficient' I suppose!

I tend to define Self Sufficient as been able to pay ones own bills, the Scarlets are developing their own players, covering their own outgoings and paying off their debts.Would you not class the UK as been self sufficient? the country is in the same position although a slightly worse situation as in the debt continues to increase, would you classify an individual taking out a loan as no longer self sufficient??.
The majority of the Scarlets debt came from building a stadium as a home for a Region, that region is a relatively young buisness that seems to me to be doing reasonably well in relation to its CROI considering the recessed market it is operating in.

How do you define Self Sufficient ?

Okay, but they are not paying their bills (interest is rolling up), they are not covering their outgoings (they are making multi million pound losses) and they are not paying off their debts (they are not even covering the interest).

This isn't a dig at the Scarlets - the whole thing is a mess. After 9 years the regional game is in financial crisis and we haven't (that 2-3 year period by the Ospreys aside) produced even one team that is consistently competitive against the best in Europe.

Something has to change - even the CEO of the WRU has acknowledged it.

Seagultaf wrote:Boring Boring Boring!

Lets stop arguing about what has gone wrong in the past and build of the four regional teams we have.

Dual contracts for regional players away on Wales duty, so that the regions can afford decent back up players in the squad.
The regions provide the playing resource for the national game, let them have a greater say in the way the game is run.
Slim down the WRU and spend some of the cash on developing the professional game.
Play more games at 3.00pm on a Saturday, televise away games only.

Have to agree here 100%, especially the bit about only televising away games, if the only way to see a home game was to go to it the attendences would instantly increase for all 4 regions, unfortunately the only ones with the power to make this happen would be the IRB, by enforcing a directive on all member unions. without that sort of interjection by the IRB the power will remain with the TV companies, once the IRB realise the media need them just as much as they need it then maybe we will see a change.

I find the ones that usually moan the most are the ones who don't bother attending games and give little financial support to the regions.

Much like the obese person crying off they are fat whilst sitting down eating cake.

If everyone feels so passionate about the future of welsh rugby get off your backside and choose a region to support,
I thing I hate is sayers not doers.

viewtothegym wrote:I find the ones that usually moan the most are the ones who don't bother attending games and give little financial support to the regions.

Much like the obese person crying off they are fat whilst sitting down eating cake.

If everyone feels so passionate about the future of welsh rugby get off your backside and choose a region to support,
I thing I hate is sayers not doers.

Who's moaning? Most of the debate on here has been from people suggesting ways to take things forward and improve, following the WRUs admission that radical change is needed at regional level.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on this thread im stating that the average welsh man has an opinion on the regions and when they are gone they will be the first to cry.
I was always under the impression when things get tough we all pull together,I live. 3.2hours away from the nearest region but attended a game at least once a month

viewtothegym wrote:I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on this thread im stating that the average welsh man has an opinion on the regions and when they are gone they will be the first to cry

I dont think anyone would cry. The majority would throw a party

Only if u count yourself as the majority Steffan

Steffan what are you on about, the regions are one of the main reasons why Wales have 3 grandslams to their name in the last 7 years.

Stop winging about the regions. They're here to stay and the vast majority want them to stay, but with changes into the way they are run.

Im all for having regions. Thats why I will throw a party if the current Superclub setup gets put to an end

Steffan wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on this thread im stating that the average welsh man has an opinion on the regions and when they are gone they will be the first to cry

I dont think anyone would cry. The majority would throw a party

shame you feel that way