Irish front row selections for New Zealand tour

First topic message reminder :

Select the two best for each position.

Well court is more than just a mediocre LH. This offers us the ability to lose ross without playing a LH out of position and vice versa. You honestly think giving the likes of Hagan game time in NZ wont develop him?

Yes Court is a good LH, and deserves more starts never mind a bench spot. However bringing him on with Cronin and Hagan doesn't give any of them much of a chance. It also hamstrings the team by missing either a backrow or a 3/4 on a seven man bench. Those are two areas where Ireland are fairly strong and where the backups are already Test standard.

It seems Leinster don't trust Hagan enough to play him more in HEC games so it is risky expecting him to learn in the Test arena, (especially to him). When Hagan (or Macklin) are able to command HEC starts then they will be ready to step up. What reasoning would suggest players (especially props) who can't yet make it at HEC level should be thrown out of their depth into the Test arena.

All true but we really are between a rock and a hard place here.

Let say, sadly Ross is unable to tour - who do we take to cover TH ?

Court is a terrible TH
Fitzpatrick struggles fitness wise but is a decent scrummager
Archer has been shown up in Grade rugby this year
Buckley is in England and already failed
Andress is persona non gratis and no more than ok
Hagan is still learning and not ready in my view
Macklin may be a prospect but has started 1 game for Ulster ever - nowhere near ready
Loungwy (sp?) has never impressed me to be honest and is not good enough

It does not make pretty reading

geoff998rugby wrote:
Court is a terrible TH
Fitzpatrick struggles fitness wise but is a decent scrummager
Archer has been shown up in Grade rugby this year
Buckley is in England and already failed
Andress is persona non gratis and no more than ok
Hagan is still learning and not ready in my view
Macklin may be a prospect but has started 1 game for Ulster ever - nowhere near ready
Loungwy (sp?) has never impressed me to be honest and is not good enough

It does not make pretty reading

I think the Court TH experiment has to end. The guy is a very good Loosehead but simply not up to scratch on the TH side of the scrum and never will be.

One way or another Ireland desperately need Ulster to give Fitzpatrick and Macklin serious gametime next season...however with Afoa there is that likely to happen?

For the tour though we have to stick with what we've got and hope Ross stays fit.

rodders wrote:I think the Court TH experiment has to end. The guy is a very good Loosehead but simply not up to scratch on the TH side of the scrum and never will be.

I agree the experiment has to end.

However in Court's (and Smal's) defence, when he first came to Ireland and was capped for the As before Ulster it was at tighthead. He got a run of games there for Ulster a couple of seasons ago when BJ was injured and he was improving all the time. Playing Prop relies on muscle memory to be able to react automatically to the opponent, especially on the tight side. IF he was playing TH all the time he could be OK there, but at 31 and with Afoa at Ulster it's not going to happen, and the occasional cameo against Connacht isn't going to change that.

Ireland's woes in the scrum shouldn't be exclusively laid at the door of the tighthead. They have a lot to do with the lack of physical locks (one reason why DOC was persisted with). At three of the provinces there are currently lock/BR hybrids in Ryan, Tuohy, and McCarthy and that is bound to affect scrum effectiveness, and also how their props approach the game. The breakdown is more important than the set scrum in the PRO12 so teams are encouraged to have as mobile props and locks as possible. If Ireland want a scrum they should send some of the guys with potential over to the AP and more importantly pick them when they are needed.

Jeez guys you have missed the obvious.

Buckley......

Ronan Loughney deserves a mention too. Probably the best prop for being able to play on both sides of the scrum.

I mentioned both Buckley and Loughney in my analysis guys.

Loughney's scrummaging is not as good as Fitzpatrick re covering both sides - not close imo.