England Attack coach - any news???

by cabbagesandbrussels Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:51 am

First topic message reminder :

anyone have any inside info on who SL might be looking at to join his team as attack coach?

by thomh Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:03 am

Where exactly do you get the idea that Rob Andrew has done something wrong here? He doesn't exactly stand much of a chance if people are just imagining things he might have done wrong as well.

Interesting that the telegraph are claiming Wayne Smith has been offered either 'Backs Coach' or 'Head Coach', with Lancaster moving to a Director of Coaching role if he takes the second. Presumably that would then mean taking on another coach to do the to fill the resultant gap. Anyone remember what aspect Lancaster was coaching himself during the 6N?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9228068/Wayne-Smith-to-make-major-consideration-over-whether-he-will-take-on-role-with-England-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster.html

EDIT: found it. In bold is the bit that we all seemed to have forgotten.

"Confirmation of the new interim team - Rowntree will concentrate on the forwards, Farrell the backs and defence, while Lancaster will lead attacking sessions himself - means that Rowntree is the only member of Johnson's previous coaching cabal to survive."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16088770

by Barney McGrew did it Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:51 am

Not sure if there’s jockeying for position but can’t say Smith sounds that keen tbh. Can’t believe salary is the issue as the RFU seem to have plenty of money.

"I'm going to have to search inside myself to see whether I could coach a team against them, particularly a team that has a coach in Stuart Lancaster who has real clarity of vision and knows what he wants" ….

Sounds a bit odd, he’s a professional coach so unless he got the top job at the ABs he’s always going to face that problem (assuming he wants to be a test coach). And why would working with a focussed Lancaster worry him – he already knows SL is the head honcho.

by beshocked Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:00 pm

If Wayne Smith does come in then who takes on the defensive coach duties?

Plenty of people have knocked Farrell but he made sure the defense worked well enough - meaning less points conceded - both in tries and penalties because England's discipline was much better.

The team must all be able to work well together.

The good thing about Wayne Smith is that he has no club loyalties so there would be no accusation of bias like there was with Farrell and Johnson.

by Triangulation Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:01 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Not sure if there’s jockeying for position but can’t say Smith sounds that keen tbh. Can’t believe salary is the issue as the RFU seem to have plenty of money.

"I'm going to have to search inside myself to see whether I could coach a team against them, particularly a team that has a coach in Stuart Lancaster who has real clarity of vision and knows what he wants" ….

Sounds a bit odd, he’s a professional coach so unless he got the top job at the ABs he’s always going to face that problem (assuming he wants to be a test coach). And why would working with a focussed Lancaster worry him – he already knows SL is the head honcho.

If i have said it once i have said it a thousand times. Everyone hates us. He wouldnt have a problem coaching a team that couldnt challenge his precious ABs. Graham Henry didnt have a problem coaching Wales. Gatland doesnt either nor did he have a problem coaching Ireland. Deans coaches Australia. English coaches coach in Wales and France.

Will anyone condescend to help us in our hour of needs?

Like feeeeck will they?

Why because

a) we have half a chance of challenging top 3 sides (read it from smith above if you wont take it from me) ; and

(b) because everyone hates England in rugby. HATES!

mad

by Effervescing Elephant Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:13 pm

I think Tri has hit the nail on the head. We'll never find a coach, ever. We might as well just fold the national side and become a feeder region to Wales. (If they'd have us!). We are the pariah state of Rugby, we're like North Korea with odd shaped balls. DOWN WITH US!!!!!

by formerly known as Sam Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:14 pm

"I'm going to have to search inside myself to see whether I could coach a team against them, particularly a team that has a coach in Stuart Lancaster who has real clarity of vision and knows what he wants"

I take that to mean Lancaster has laid out exactly what the wants and expects and Smith is deciding on whether it is the job for him as Lancaster seems to have a very detailed plan. Does he feel he can work alongside Lancaster and to the plan that has been put in place? There is also the moving to the other side of the world thing for Smith and his family, so it's by no means an easy choice.

by thomh Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:45 pm

I think that was part of a longer quote. He also said:

"It's not just going to any team, it's going to a team that over time will potentially challenge the All Blacks, so I've got to be clear in my mind that I could be a part of that.”

I think he meant it as a general compliment - as in 'Lancaster has a clear vision for where England are going and they could end up being a top team. I need to decide whether I want to be part of a team challenging the All Blacks for top spot'. Does seem a bit odd, given that any team without the potential to challenge the all blacks probably isn't one he'd consider going to anyway, but it's understandable.

by cabbagesandbrussels Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:59 pm

the latest is that Lancaster may take up the director of rugby role leaving smith to take the head coach role...

by yappysnap Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:48 pm

It's interesting that Lancaster was attack coach, I like many thought it was Farrell, in that case I have to apologise for blaming him for some of the issues.

Stuart Lancaster as DoR? Hhmmm that could be interesting, does any one know what DoR's actually do? I guess it's more team managing then coaching, something I can't see Lancaster being happy with. Sounds like a conflict of interests on the way.

by Portnoy Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:22 pm

Seems that White is almost but anointed.

Only the white smoke is yet to emitted at St Twickenham's Square.

The election committee are expected to retire imminently.

Papa Lancaster may me a figurehead as the new cardinal is mitred.

by Effervescing Elephant Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:26 pm

Smith mate Smith, White said no ages ago!

by Triangulation Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:33 pm

thomh wrote:I think that was part of a longer quote. He also said:

"It's not just going to any team, it's going to a team that over time will potentially challenge the All Blacks, so I've got to be clear in my mind that I could be a part of that.”

I think he meant it as a general compliment - as in 'Lancaster has a clear vision for where England are going and they could end up being a top team. I need to decide whether I want to be part of a team challenging the All Blacks for top spot'. Does seem a bit odd, given that any team without the potential to challenge the all blacks probably isn't one he'd consider going to anyway, but it's understandable.

Right now you have smoked me out. I am forced to share with you my basic but i think sound philosophy of international sporting competition....

When i was younger so much younger than today....i was just rampant for England and was more than happy to see other sides compete with us and other opponents and crumble, flake and be generally hopeless. So long as England could win i was happy. That was it be all and end all.

Now as i have matured/gone soft depending on your viewpoint i suppose, i want to see us beating everyone still but i'd much rather us beating them while they play to a very high standard themselves thus the bar is much much higher.

SO when i read these comments from a 55 year old man who is supposedly a professional. I am speechless at the imaturity and tunnel visioned one eyedness.

I told you so: they all hate us.

mad

by thomh Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:42 pm

I didn't really follow that I'm afraid.

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:29 pm

The good thing about WS as a coach is that he does both defence and attack, therefore no conflict in the game plan.

I think that half the problems with England in the past, particularly during Johnsons reign, have been due to conflicting methods of defending and attacking that have either confused the players once the opposition turn over the ball or we turn over the ball and our defensive patterns do not allow us to capitalise.

The France - England game this year is the first time I have seen England constantly look dangerous from turnover ball.

by robbo277 Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:21 pm

Going for the less is more/too many cooks approach, would a triumvirate of Lancaster (overseer), Rowntree (forwards) and Smith (backs) work well then? Of course we could bring in temporary specialists as and when needs be (line-out, kicking and fitness spring to mind), but in the main leaving it those 3 to work on the game plan and coach the basic skills and patterns.

Obviously the plan is dependant on getting Smith to agree to it, but what would people make of that trio if we did get them?

by thomh Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:28 pm

The timeframe for his this seems to have been slashed. BBC are now reporting he will decide within 24 hours:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17852419

by Taylorman Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:17 pm

Hard to tell but is smith out of tbe picture for england now. Pity if so because hes had an immediate impact with the chiefs who after their first game and loss have won 8 straight and are on top of the sxv. Only 8 tries conceded. Huge stastic for sxv rugby and particularly the chiefs who used to have to score 40 points to win games such was the try haul against them.

So it would be more than just as attack coach he would be effective with. Turnovers at the breakdown, counter attacking, all round more effective use of time with the ball. Personally i hope it goes ahead. But as usual things England get political very quickly...mind you henry slagging them off doesnt help, even if in jest.

by Portnoy Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:23 pm

thomh wrote:The timeframe for his this seems to have been slashed. BBC are now reporting he will decide within 24 hours:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17852419

From tonight's R5 interview. I'd suggest that the inference is for Mike Catt to be interim backs coach and Smiffy later.

by Taylorman Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:01 pm

and it continues here:
http://www.allblacks.com/news/19211/Smith-clear-with-his-intentions-regarding-England-post

some of the comments posted:

Displaying 1-4 of 4 comment(s)
cnealefx
cnealefx

27/04/12 | 07:43 AM - Comment #4
Does anyone have any info on why Smith didn't stay with AB coaching set up post the RWC?

narutouzumaki

27/04/12 | 05:17 AM - Comment #3
dont agree that smithy had 8 years to build towards the RWC, they had 4 years for 2007 and then had to shake the stars that the french left them and rebuilt learning from past mistakes.

i think smithys family and NZ will be the biggest reason for him to stay, but RFU need to dig into their pockets and bust out the $$$, cos the million dollar man said,,,"everybodys got a price",,,, regardless, good luck smithy, if u do get that head coaching role as alluded, the itn it would be good for both u and england.

DP

27/04/12 | 04:48 AM - Comment #2
Hmmmm. If I read this right, potentially Smith will have a 'free hand' in coaching, incl strategy & tactics, on the field for England whilst Lancaster will be kicked upstairs to deal with the Premiership clubs in getting them to align their coaching methods with those of the National set up? Hasn't happened up til now; e.g. with Brian Smith under Johnno, so Wayne Smith needs to be very clear of his JD & role (& England have a disasterous track record on the latter, particularly in recent times!).

England do need a change of belief in playing rugby, i.e. winning the breakdown & creating tries thru their centres, instead of overly concentrating on the set piece & pride in the jersey.

Smith could certainly do this as well as improve their 'D'.

However, as WS said he need to search within himself & his concience when deciding whether to coach against his country of his birth... & as he also mentions, consider his family's needs.

If the former & latter are right for him (& only he can decide this)... AND he has a clear hand, as I believe he has to, then he needs to go for it.

However, as England have such a different culture & mind set, esp in sport & perhaps even more esp in rugby (altho WS must know this from his time when coaching at N'thampton), unless he is absolutely clear on his remit & that he has control of his job, then he shud drop kick it into touch.

For me Lancaster has yet to prove himself. He seems to lack the ability or vision to address England's real issues at backrow balance for the breakdown battle & the non creativity in their midfield. I may be being harsh on him & he certainly talked a good game to get the job (CAN'T BLAME HIM FOR THAT)& like Johnno a yr back his team did pretty good in the 6N, but that's too little to judge him on.

So Smithy beware!

Black Ask.

27/04/12 | 04:05 AM - Comment #1
Congradulations Smithy on your eventual head coach role for England 2015.

by thomh Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:30 pm

Taylorman wrote:Hard to tell but is smith out of tbe picture for england now. Pity if so because hes had an immediate impact with the chiefs who after their first game and loss have won 8 straight and are on top of the sxv.

No? Where did you get that idea from? Lancaster met Smith last week and offered him the job. Smith is currently deciding whether to take it.

Portnoy wrote:
thomh wrote:The timeframe for his this seems to have been slashed. BBC are now reporting he will decide within 24 hours:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17852419

From tonight's R5 interview. I'd suggest that the inference is for Mike Catt to be interim backs coach and Smiffy later.

Yes I know, but Smith is currently deciding whether to take the job that he's been offered from Autumn onwards. I wasn't suggesting that he'll start work right away, just that he'll make the decision.

by boomeranga Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:01 am

Carpe Diem wrote:I think Tri has hit the nail on the head. We'll never find a coach, ever. We might as well just fold the national side and become a feeder region to Wales. (If they'd have us!). We are the pariah state of Rugby, we're like North Korea with odd shaped balls. DOWN WITH US!!!!!

I'm resigned to the fact that when my dear old mum and dad start showing (more) signs of senility and become a danger to themselves, I'll have to clear out the spare room and stick them in there with the old telly so they can watch their shows. I'm sure one of the kids will do the same for England. How do you feel about deserts?

by Taylorman Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:05 am

thomh wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Hard to tell but is smith out of tbe picture for england now. Pity if so because hes had an immediate impact with the chiefs who after their first game and loss have won 8 straight and are on top of the sxv.

No? Where did you get that idea from? Lancaster met Smith last week and offered him the job. Smith is currently deciding whether to take it.

In reading the posts it was hard to tell so I went looking and posted the next one. I reckon he'll take it. His turnaround of the Chiefs (albeit in conjunction with Rennie) has been phenomenal in such a short time.

by blackcanelion Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:23 am

Interesting if England get him. Here's Marshall comments on him: "I have been coached by over a dozen coaches including the world's best – Laurie Mains, John Hart, Robbie Deans, Steve Hansen, Graham Henry, Eddie Jones, Jake White – but none of these great men has had the rugby knowledge of Smith,"

One of the problems lancaster and however works under him is getting the club coaches on side. I think its a major issue for teams such as England and France, with strong private club competitions.

by Portnoy Wed May 02, 2012 4:10 pm

A curious addendum to the debate:

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/163529.html

Catt calls on Lancaster to use Smith
ESPNscrum Staff
May 2, 2012
Mike Catt will look to the youngsters while on tour in South Africa
Related Links
Players/Officials: Mike Catt | Stuart Lancaster | Wayne Smith
Teams: England

New England coach Mike Catt has called on Stuart Lancaster to utilise his friendship with Wayne Smith and tap into the former All Blacks coach's knowledge of the game.

Catt was announced as England's backs coach for the tour to South Africa on Tuesday in an interim capacity with Smith opting to stay in New Zealand rather than linking up with Lancaster. Catt's club side London Irish confirmed his departure on the same day and he will take up his role with England from May 7.

But it was Smith who appeared to be the favourite to take on the role of backs coach. Despite his decision to stay in New Zealand, Catt believes the World Cup-winning coach could still play a role in the England set-up.

"Stuart has given me this opportunity I just want to take it with both hands," Catt said. "I still don't know why Stuart can't tap into Wayne's knowledge anyway.

"Graham Henry is still doing stuff around the world and I think Stuart has a good enough relationship with Wayne to be able to do that. I think everyone could learn massively from Wayne, but obviously for family reasons he's decided not to get involved but it gives other people opportunities to stake their claim."

Catt will now aim to showcase his credentials on the five-match tour of South Africa with a view to getting the job full-time but Catt is adamant that he will focus on the "now" rather than the future.

"This is my opportunity," Catt said. "I had quite a few of them for England as a player and now this is my opportunity as a coach to make sure I can set my stall out and work well with Graham [Rowntree] and Stuart and the players. It's not rocket science how Stuart wants us to play the game, he's very open minded. It's the environment that we're on and we're hoping to play at that level.

"I've got a two-month window that I need to make sure I get things right, make sure I complement Stuart and Graham in everything they do and that I get the players on board too. It's down to man-management and I will purely focus on the next two months so I won't worry about the future too much."

One criticism of England during an otherwise successful Six Nations was their lack of cutting edge. They scored just seven tries in the campaign and one of Catt's first jobs is attempt to unleash their attacking potential.

"Graham Rowntree has done an amazing job with the forwards, especially with that scrum performance against Ireland, so if we can get that set-piece right, the line-out and the scrum and get a good platform to work from, it's now my job to get some of those backs firing and firing and doing good stuff," he said. "Andy [Farrell], Graham and Stuart have produced guys that you probably don't see on a week-in, week-out basis in the Aviva Premiership.

"They are defending unbelievably well and their work rate is incredible. It's just ultimate belief. Owen Farrell and Toby Flood are pushing each other (at fly-half). You've got the nine spot with Lee Dickson and Ben Youngs - key positions with a lot of competition there and guys will improve because of that."

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