England's Attack

by Triangulation Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:01 pm

Morgan
Youngs/Care
Flood
Tuilagi
Joseph
Ashton Foden

Goode

Hands up who can see where England are trying to go in attack?

I can. It is nowhere near ready yet but I can see what they're tying to do.

What I like about this is as soon as its named it is a nasty proposition for an opposition defensively.

It is a multiple threat set up with each player keeping at least his opposite number and more likely an extra defender more than interested and honest.

Morgan can go and cause havoc on a run off the back with his powerfull running. He can offload to Youngs/Care. He keeps opposition back row honest.
Youngs/Care have gas to take half gaps and snipe instinctively. This also ties in the opposition back row and gives Flood more space.
Flood stands flat and will go himself on at least a half break if it is on. He has an excellent understanding with Ashton who hunts these half breaks down ruthlessly in support.
Tuilagi demands the attention of 2 defenders and has good feet and an outside break in his arsenal. This gives room to Joseph. NB we need to get MT passing more to make use of this but even if Tuilagi goes to ground and the recycle comes quickly to Joseph he is in space. If he breaks the line Ashton and Joseph need to be on his shoulders talking to him.
This is where Goode can come into it. He is an excellent reader of the game and if Flood is out of the play can slide into first receiver and put Joseph into space.
Joseph has excellent feet and can gas most opponents on the outside. Consequently and somehow the opposition have to stay tight to him while covering Tuilagi and the other inside threats described above. Joseph also has excellent hands so will release a winger if given half a chance.
Finally stick a winger with pace outside Joseph and the opposition have in my opinion a fecking defensive nightmare on their hands.

by bedfordwelsh Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:13 pm

From and outsiders POV I still think the centre pairing is where is goes wrong.

Tuilagi is an animal but they just haven't managed to get best partner for him yet.

Morgan needs a good pre-season then you may see best of him

by **LondonTiger** Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:14 pm

The alternative is:

Dowson
Dickson
Farrell
Barritt
Manu
Ashton,Foden
Brown

the tactic:

Dowson gets knocked backwards. England recycle, slowly. Dickson box kicks or floats a loopy pass to Farrell. Who 9/10 kicks. On the tenth time he either passes to a static Barritt who dies in contact, or a static Manu who dies in contact.

Meanwhile the back 3 hang back waiting for the opposition to kick to them - after all no-one in white will be passing to them.

by Triangulation Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:19 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:From and outsiders POV I still think the centre pairing is where is goes wrong.

Tuilagi is an animal but they just haven't managed to get best partner for him yet.

Morgan needs a good pre-season then you may see best of him

Bedfordwelsh

I know what you mean. The alternative i believe is to bring in Twelvetrees at 12, keep Manu at 13 and bench Joseph or try him on a wing. Goode then becomes slightly less necessary at at fullback but may still warrant his spot on merit.

HOWEVER as Joseph and Manu are both such attacking threats they are being shoe horned as a centre partnership. It is an experiment with 2 guys who are 21 years old. It does need a fair crack. I dont see why Manu cannot be developed in terms of passing and kicking game. He is only 21!!

by Triangulation Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:The alternative is:

Dowson
Dickson
Farrell
Barritt
Manu
Ashton,Foden
Brown

the tactic:

Dowson gets knocked backwards. England recycle, slowly. Dickson box kicks or floats a loopy pass to Farrell. Who 9/10 kicks. On the tenth time he either passes to a static Barritt who dies in contact, or a static Manu who dies in contact.

Meanwhile the back 3 hang back waiting for the opposition to kick to them - after all no-one in white will be passing to them.

AND you are forgetting of course that if we do try to run it with this attack rather than kick, as Dowson, Dickson, Farrell and Barrit offer little or no running THREAT the defenders can feel free to gangbang Barrit and Tuilagi until the proverbial cows come home.

No i like the balance of having strike runners : Manu, Joseph, Ashton, Foden/May/Wade and footballers in Care/Youngs (who can both snipe as well) Flood (who can snipe) and Goode.

All the ingredients are there.

Now come on coaches earn your biscuits and bake us a fecking big fat try scoring victory cake!!

Huzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:24 pm

They changed the half back pairing after the first game. They only picked JJ and moved Tuilagi inside because of Barrits injury. they then changed the way the played in the second of those games. They couldnt make up their minds on wings and fullbacks.
I think its quite clear they havent a clue what they are doing and keep changing their minds after every game rather than spending time getting things to work.

Using Tuilagi as a pure battering ram is a criminal waste. Failing to get the ball to JJ, ashton, Foden, Goode is a criminal waste.

Englands only attacking threat has been coming from Foden fielding kicks and the 9's making opportunistic breaks. Floods injury of course contributes to that, but Lancaster seemed determined to have a deep standing FH

by Triangulation Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:27 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They changed the half back pairing after the first game. They only picked JJ and moved Tuilagi inside because of Barrits injury. they then changed the way the played in the second of those games. They couldnt make up their minds on wings and fullbacks.
I think its quite clear they havent a clue what they are doing and keep changing their minds after every game rather than spending time getting things to work.

Using Tuilagi as a pure battering ram is a criminal waste. Failing to get the ball to JJ, ashton, Foden, Goode is a criminal waste.

Englands only attacking threat has been coming from Foden fielding kicks and the 9's making opportunistic breaks. Floods injury of course contributes to that, but Lancaster seemed determined to have a deep standing FH

Yes then Barrit was fit again but not brought back. Manu/Joseph was persisted with.

Sort out some quick forward ball and let rip!

by blackcanelion Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:33 pm

Isn't England's attack an oxymoron? Whistle

by beshocked Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:31 pm

I know it's a pretty crazy strategy but why not play players in their normal positions?

For complete emphasis on attack (forget defense) why not

9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.M.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

Replacements

Care
Burns
May

by **LondonTiger** Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:37 pm

beshocked wrote:I know it's a pretty crazy strategy but why not play players in their normal positions?

For complete emphasis on attack (forget defense) why not

9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.M.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

Replacements

Care
Burns
May

ah well, if we are going down the attack is the only way route:

Simpson
Cipriani
Wade
36
May
Varndell
Abendanon

by Equo Troiano Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:01 pm

LondonTiger wrote:The alternative is:

Dowson
Dickson
Farrell
Barritt
Manu
Ashton,Foden
Brown

the tactic:

Dowson gets knocked backwards. England recycle, slowly. Dickson box kicks or floats a loopy pass to Farrell. Who 9/10 kicks. On the tenth time he either passes to a static Barritt who dies in contact, or a static Manu who dies in contact.

Meanwhile the back 3 hang back waiting for the opposition to kick to them - after all no-one in white will be passing to them.

Do try to cheer up Marvin.

by beshocked Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:25 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:I know it's a pretty crazy strategy but why not play players in their normal positions?

For complete emphasis on attack (forget defense) why not

9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.M.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

Replacements

Care
Burns
May

ah well, if we are going down the attack is the only way route:

Simpson
Cipriani
Wade
36
May
Varndell
Abendanon

Very true actually. Much more emphasis on attack and certainly less on defence! Could be fun though.

by Triangulation Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:38 pm

beshocked wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:I know it's a pretty crazy strategy but why not play players in their normal positions?

For complete emphasis on attack (forget defense) why not

9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.M.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

Replacements

Care
Burns
May

ah well, if we are going down the attack is the only way route:

Simpson
Cipriani
Wade
36
May
Varndell
Abendanon

Very true actually. Much more emphasis on attack and certainly less on defence! Could be fun though.

Excuse me but what the feck is your point?

Firstly, Tuilagi is 21 and playing him at 12 is not the most outrageous selection the world has ever seen.

Secondly, why are 9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.M.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

such a defensive clusterfeck in your view? I thought 36 was ok in defence. I know that Wade is supposed to be suspect.

Thirdly, why talk in binary like that. A good attacking and defending backline are not necessarily mutually exclusive - in fact if you backs can turn ball over when defending and quickly transition to attack that is some of the best attacking opportunity you will get at test level.

My point in the OP stands and no one has bothered to deal with it in a sensible way whatsoever.

I am very disappointed in 606 today.

Very disappointed.

by dragonbreath Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:05 pm

Triangulation wrote:Morgan
Youngs/Care
Flood
Tuilagi
Joseph
Ashton Foden

Goode

Hands up who can see where England are trying to go in attack?

I can. It is nowhere near ready yet but I can see what they're tying to do.

What I like about this is as soon as its named it is a nasty proposition for an opposition defensively.

It is a multiple threat set up with each player keeping at least his opposite number and more likely an extra defender more than interested and honest.

Morgan can go and cause havoc on a run off the back with his powerfull running. He can offload to Youngs/Care. He keeps opposition back row honest.
Youngs/Care have gas to take half gaps and snipe instinctively. This also ties in the opposition back row and gives Flood more space.
Flood stands flat and will go himself on at least a half break if it is on. He has an excellent understanding with Ashton who hunts these half breaks down ruthlessly in support.
Tuilagi demands the attention of 2 defenders and has good feet and an outside break in his arsenal. This gives room to Joseph. NB we need to get MT passing more to make use of this but even if Tuilagi goes to ground and the recycle comes quickly to Joseph he is in space. If he breaks the line Ashton and Joseph need to be on his shoulders talking to him.
This is where Goode can come into it. He is an excellent reader of the game and if Flood is out of the play can slide into first receiver and put Joseph into space.
Joseph has excellent feet and can gas most opponents on the outside. Consequently and somehow the opposition have to stay tight to him while covering Tuilagi and the other inside threats described above. Joseph also has excellent hands so will release a winger if given half a chance.
Finally stick a winger with pace outside Joseph and the opposition have in my opinion a fecking defensive nightmare on their hands.

Of course, that is brilliant. England's attack is potentially genius. Those transporter things in Star Trek are great too. I wonder which they will get to work first.

Beam me up Scotty

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:17 pm

Triangulation wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They changed the half back pairing after the first game. They only picked JJ and moved Tuilagi inside because of Barrits injury. they then changed the way the played in the second of those games. They couldnt make up their minds on wings and fullbacks.
I think its quite clear they havent a clue what they are doing and keep changing their minds after every game rather than spending time getting things to work.

Using Tuilagi as a pure battering ram is a criminal waste. Failing to get the ball to JJ, ashton, Foden, Goode is a criminal waste.

Englands only attacking threat has been coming from Foden fielding kicks and the 9's making opportunistic breaks. Floods injury of course contributes to that, but Lancaster seemed determined to have a deep standing FH

Yes then Barrit was fit again but not brought back. Manu/Joseph was persisted with.

Sort out some quick forward ball and let rip!

They were getting quick ball, they just butchered it. I doubt Manu and JJ will start the next test, Manu isnt the guy to play that role at 12...it doesnt get the best from him and he cant do whats required to make it work. JJ could have the feet of Fred Astaire for all it matters if he doesnt get the ball. Yes England had a plan, but it clearly didnt work 9 admitedly part of that may well have been floods injury)...I suspect it will change yet again come the next test.
Keep trying different things out till by sheer luck one works, but so far Lancaster and his various coaches have filed to capitalise on Englands talented backs...especially the ones he was bigging up himself and before he took charge. Kind of ironic since he critisized the previous regime for just that.

by Hood83 Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:28 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They changed the half back pairing after the first game. They only picked JJ and moved Tuilagi inside because of Barrits injury. they then changed the way the played in the second of those games. They couldnt make up their minds on wings and fullbacks.
I think its quite clear they havent a clue what they are doing and keep changing their minds after every game rather than spending time getting things to work.

Using Tuilagi as a pure battering ram is a criminal waste. Failing to get the ball to JJ, ashton, Foden, Goode is a criminal waste.

Englands only attacking threat has been coming from Foden fielding kicks and the 9's making opportunistic breaks. Floods injury of course contributes to that, but Lancaster seemed determined to have a deep standing FH

Yes then Barrit was fit again but not brought back. Manu/Joseph was persisted with.

Sort out some quick forward ball and let rip!

Wow Peter, you really took the whole Johnson thing badly didn't you?

Still, it would be nice if an England backs coach could earn their crust.

They were getting quick ball, they just butchered it. I doubt Manu and JJ will start the next test, Manu isnt the guy to play that role at 12...it doesnt get the best from him and he cant do whats required to make it work. JJ could have the feet of Fred Astaire for all it matters if he doesnt get the ball. Yes England had a plan, but it clearly didnt work 9 admitedly part of that may well have been floods injury)...I suspect it will change yet again come the next test.
Keep trying different things out till by sheer luck one works, but so far Lancaster and his various coaches have filed to capitalise on Englands talented backs...especially the ones he was bigging up himself and before he took charge. Kind of ironic since he critisized the previous regime for just that.

by Hood83 Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:29 pm

Sorry, my comment got lodged in the middle of your quote!

by ultra Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:29 pm

No....NO, Mr Wheeler, when was the last time you played?? Trust me a 21 one year old with the pace and power of tuilagi is an extreme threat.....just ask SA, they managed, but I guarantee they looked for him a lot. Granted we need to move on from just the clubbing, boshing route and granted JJ may be the way but didn't get the ball, (neither did ashton et al), but to discount tuilagi as a threat, or lancaster's desire to use him as such is just silly. Our problem is, and forgive me if I sound welsh here, 10!! Farrel would be a great closer in years to come and Flood? Maybe only Scoland's side he'd get into yet he's supposed to be our attacking maestro!

Every team runs through moves in every conceivable postion but if you aint got an 8,9 10 who can see beyond the moves.......some vision.....welll you're knackered. Our 8's and 9's have some promise. Our 10's suck cheese but can generally kick a bit.

Of course its all Lancaster's fault!!

by Geordie Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:51 pm

Firstly...if your going to play Barritt and Tuilagi...can we change it to Fitzpatrick and Tuilagi. Fitzy is bigger...equally as good defensively, intelligent and is ferocious ball in hand..never failing to make yards. Not particularly creative...but neither is Barritt!

Lets leave Tuilagi at 13, until the day leicester decide to turn him into a 12 (if they ever do)

Personally ill be watching Twelvetrees closely this season. He does seem to have it all...except consistency. If he can add this, then maybe he's the man for Englands 12 shirt.

Personally im of the opinion that aside from Twelvetrees we simply dont have playmaking 12's but we do have a few quality 13's on their way through....so we will need to have a creative 10, bosher at 12, and possibly a creative 13...unless Goode maybe moves up to the midfield....

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:01 pm

I dont discount Tuilagi as a threat. I discount the way he was used by England as a threat.
When hes put at 13 and asked to run at defenders shoulders hes far more effective. Hes good at running straight into people and pushing them back too...but lacks and effective offloading game to really make much of it and gets himself isolated under a pile of defenders rather than creating anything useful (and England are incapable of getting players to support him anyway), The second test they stuck him at 12 and asked him to pass, which he did but without much flair, subtley or effectiveness. Hes much better trying to win the game on his own which is his instinct. He a flash player, England are wasting him like they used to Jamie Noon ( yes I said it ! jamie noon was capable of sublime play butt rarely showed it in an england shirt and instead was used to test the thickness of brick walls)
As it is under Lancaster Englands attacking threat has come almost entirely from Youngs, Care, Flood, Foden and Charlie Hodgsons charge downs (all hangovers from the much maligned world cup squad and 3 of who Lancaster has repeatedly overlooked)

I dont blame it all on Lancaster, injuries have played a part too and his coaching staff who hes clealry highly reliant on.
And yes I dont enjoy making a point about the way MJ was treated as England manager and the amount of media manipulation from Rob Andrew and his crew. Lancasters early days were all about positive media spin, at some point its going to have to be about results as well.
Truth be told though they are pretty decent despite Englands obvious deficiencies.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:06 am

Triangulation,

Apologies for taking your thread in a direction you did not intend, but to explain some of my posts:

No I do not see the way England are going in attack. While the lineup you mention might be selected by Lancaster, it is highly unlikely to be the lineup for the first AI. The "negative" lineup i suggested is just as likely to be selected. At times in SA it seemed as if Lancaster was stumbling from one formation to another, with no discernible plan. That is understandable with the circumstances - but come the AIs we need to start to see a coherent plan.

As to the subsequent "attacking" posts. Not sure either Beshocked or I suggested they were defensive clustewhatevers, just they were a lineup that would concentrate on attack rather than defence.

by damage_13 Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:51 am

sorry, but some of this is tripe.

manu CAN pass, but the reason the center pairing hasn't clicked yet is A: lack of time and B: brains

the saffers deliberately put the Poopie's up manu and he went looking for contact instead of using his brain and looking to draw then offload every other ball.

in a word... experience.

by wasps Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:07 am

If both Manu and JJ are 13s, then why is Manu the better option at 12?

If we're playing a centre out of position, doesn't it make sense to play the one with more vision and better opposing ability at 12?
I'm not trying to say that JJ is a 12, just that I don't understand why Manu appears to be the better option there.

by beshocked Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:39 am

Triangulation they are not our best defensive options but it's about attack, the emphasis is on we will score more tries than you! LondonTiger's team is even more attacking but less defensive. Surely that's what your article is about - attack,attack and attack!

Just because M.Tuilagi is only 21 what's the point of moving him out of position!

Seriously why move England's first choice 13 and 15s to accommodate others?

M.Tuilagi needs to settle in his groove at 13,moving him doesn't help.

Yes these gambles occasionally work but generally they don't. You are correct the worst decision ever was Bergamasco at scrum half.

England's worst was Monye at full back.

Exactly Wasps.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:41 am

damage_13 wrote:sorry, but some of this is tripe.

manu CAN pass, but the reason the center pairing hasn't clicked yet is A: lack of time and B: brains

the saffers deliberately put the Poopie's up manu and he went looking for contact instead of using his brain and looking to draw then offload every other ball.

in a word... experience.

The previous test he was passing, and it was ineffective. The previous test JJ got ball, and did nothing with it.
there are better distributors around than Tuillagi, he may be capable but hes not great. Allen for example, who plays outside him to great effect for Tigers.

by pbuk0 Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:42 am

First and Second Choice 8-15 as follows;

Morgan / Crane
Care / Youngs
Flood / Ford
36 / Allen
Manu / Joseph
May / Wade
Ashton / Sharples
Foden / Goode

However I also think that more ball carriers/ power are required up front to get England moving forward to help release the backs. So Youngs at Hooker, Garvey/ Laws/ Attwood 2nd row, Haskell back row would help make England more potent in attack. Also Croft with his speed.

by bedfordwelsh Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:44 am

For me Manu has to be what England build their back line around.

Jamie Roberts is hardly the greatest distributor of the ball and I don't think I have ever seen him kick but when he plays alongside JD they form quite a very effective partnership, and this series just gone to me proves how much we miss Roberts.

For England I think they have to keep trying to find the ideal partner for Manu.

by Equo Troiano Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:46 am

pbuk0 wrote:First and Second Choice 8-15 as follows;

Morgan / Crane
Care / Youngs
Flood / Ford
36 / Allen
Manu / Joseph
May / Wade
Ashton / Sharples
Foden / Goode

However I also think that more ball carriers/ power are required up front to get England moving forward to help release the backs. So Youngs at Hooker, Garvey/ Laws/ Attwood 2nd row, Haskell back row would help make England more potent in attack. Also Croft with his speed.

Morgan over Tommy? Tommy has demonstrated that (right now anyway), he's the preferred option of the two.

by pbuk0 Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:49 am

To be honest between Tommy/ Morgan there isn't much between them so went with the younger man. I put Crane in as he seems to have become a better player the longer he has been out of action..

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:52 am

Morgan needs to get really fit when he reports back for pre-season training.

I love thomas as a player (I keep threatening my nephews and daughters that I will attend a match in tigers face paint with an I <3 The Tank Engine Banner - which would be worth it just to embarrass them) but I really do not see him as England's No8.

by bedfordwelsh Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:58 am

I think is fully fit and well conditioned Morgan is head and shoulders above Tommy

by beshocked Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:59 am

pbuk0 wrote:To be honest between Tommy/ Morgan there isn't much between them so went with the younger man. I put Crane in as he seems to have become a better player the longer he has been out of action..

Obviously a lot of bias in your selections but Crane is the most bizarre. He's not been playing for a long time. How can judge how he'll be after his long lay off?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:02 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think is fully fit and well conditioned Morgan is head and shoulders above Tommy

Possibly but since he isnt either of those at the moment we can perhaps put him in a box with Crane and focus on players who are? (And it comes to something when the Hutt is described as fit and conditioned!)

Individuals aside...it seems England want a ball carrying 8...like Nick Easter Whistle

by beshocked Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:03 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think is fully fit and well conditioned Morgan is head and shoulders above Tommy

Does that exist though? It's like saying an intelligent Haskell would be a very good no 8 for England!

by bedfordwelsh Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:06 pm

Plus Morgan has what 6 years on him so you would hope he gets there.

by pbuk0 Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:06 pm

beshocked wrote:
pbuk0 wrote:To be honest between Tommy/ Morgan there isn't much between them so went with the younger man. I put Crane in as he seems to have become a better player the longer he has been out of action..

Obviously a lot of bias in your selections but Crane is the most bizarre. He's not been playing for a long time. How can judge how he'll be after his long lay off?

I just hope he gets back to his true potential as I believe he can be a good player for club and country but as you say it probably is a bizarre selection..
I think Crane is close to fitness.. can any Tiger's update??

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:09 pm

Crane was fit at the end of the season, but there were no A team or unimportant matches for him to get match fitness.

by Equo Troiano Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:28 pm

Crane is fit and will be available for the pre-season 'friendlies'. However, he isn't match fit (but then, who will be?) and so is therefore almost certainly going to be warming the bench, with Waldrom starting at No8.

Thats the rumour anyway.

by rozakthegoon Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:15 pm

if flood hadn't gone off injured, JJ would have got the ball more.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:19 pm

The boys who were on the England tour get 4 weeks holiday before they have to report back for pre-season training. thus we may well see Crane starting the earliest friendlies.

by Chjw131 Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:23 pm

Triangulation wrote:Morgan
Youngs/Care
Flood
Tuilagi
Joseph
Ashton Foden

Goode

Hands up who can see where England are trying to go in attack?

I can. It is nowhere near ready yet but I can see what they're tying to do.

What I like about this is as soon as its named it is a nasty proposition for an opposition defensively.

It is a multiple threat set up with each player keeping at least his opposite number and more likely an extra defender more than interested and honest.

Morgan can go and cause havoc on a run off the back with his powerfull running. He can offload to Youngs/Care. He keeps opposition back row honest.

Youngs/Care have gas to take half gaps and snipe instinctively. This also ties in the opposition back row and gives Flood more space.
Flood stands flat and will go himself on at least a half break if it is on. He has an excellent understanding with Ashton who hunts these half breaks down ruthlessly in support.

Tuilagi demands the attention of 2 defenders and has good feet and an outside break in his arsenal. This gives room to Joseph. NB we need to get MT passing more to make use of this but even if Tuilagi goes to ground and the recycle comes quickly to Joseph he is in space. If he breaks the line Ashton and Joseph need to be on his shoulders talking to him.

This is where Goode can come into it. He is an excellent reader of the game and if Flood is out of the play can slide into first receiver and put Joseph into space.

Joseph has excellent feet and can gas most opponents on the outside. Consequently and somehow the opposition have to stay tight to him while covering Tuilagi and the other inside threats described above. Joseph also has excellent hands so will release a winger if given half a chance.

Finally stick a winger with pace outside Joseph and the opposition have in my opinion a fecking defensive nightmare on their hands.

All a distinctly plausible attacking plan Tri, the problem for me lies in the execution. That's where we see sides like England suffer time after time, the ability and confidence to execute the skills and plan correctly under pressure. It's an area we glaringly suffer in, unless there seems to be no other alternative - See Eng v Aus 2010 AI's.

by stlowe Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:08 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Firstly...if your going to play Barritt and Tuilagi...can we change it to Fitzpatrick and Tuilagi. Fitzy is bigger...equally as good defensively, intelligent and is ferocious ball in hand..never failing to make yards. Not particularly creative...but neither is Barritt!

He might be bigger and carry a shade further (3m/carry vs 2m/carry), but the rest of those claims don't really stack up I'm afraid Geordie, particularly defensively (Barritt made 50% more tackles and missed less). An IC who passes only 17% of his ball and gets turned over 15% of that he carries would have to make considerably more metres to be an option.

Barritt/Fitzpatrick in the AP last season

Matches 16/17
Tries 3/4
Try Assists 3/0
Passes 110/21
Carries 106/99
Metres Carried 221/329
Clean Breaks 5/6
Offloads 10/8
Defenders Beaten 13/10
Tackles 147/94
Missed Tackles 13/16
Penalties Conceded 12/14
Turnovers Conceded 10/15

by Geordie Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:28 am

Dont forget fitzy was forced to play on the wing a few games under the delusional Alan tait....so I dont quite trust those stats.. .

by beshocked Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:21 am

Nice stats Stlowe. thumbsup

Just 21 passes in a season!

Geordiefalcon I would hardly expect you to trust stats that don't agree with your view.

Barritt is known as a very good defensive 12. These stats just prove it.

by Geordie Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:25 am

On the contrary....im wary of all stats...dont think they always show the true picture...but thats not just cos im defending my player.

I rate barritt dont get me wrong....but we will see now that fitzy will have a decent pack to work off...

by beshocked Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:37 am

Of course stats don't show the whole picture but Barritt's defense is one thing that cannot be argued about.

Why is Fitzpatrick moving clubs? Wink

by Geordie Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:45 am

At what point did I question barritts defense.....i openly sa Wink

id when he was injured that we would suffer in the second test because he want there....i maybe a little bias....but.im not stupid.....

Fitzy leaving? What do you mean??? Edit...just,got.that...too many rums last night

by Triangulation Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:49 am

Guys,

I know that everyone has their club allegiances and that is expected to show through a little bit but it gets boring when the same posters push the same agenda over and over and over again.

Peter Seabiscuit

We all know you're hacked off about MJ coming to an end, the manner of it and now that Lancaster in your opinion is getting away with the same things MJ was blamed for. We get it. Move on. Get behind the national team man!

Beshocked

We know everyone hates Saracens and its all about people picking on saracens.

Geordie Falcon

We know that you want Fitzpatrick at 12 for England. Message received loud and clear! You yourself describe him as a bosher dont you? How is that possibly going to work with MT at 13?

Look all i've said in the OP is that i think we can all be justifiably excited that we have the raw materials to put together a lehtal attack. An attack that will cause defensive lines all over the world big issues.

I think we all know that the rosetta stone is 12. We have had i think 16 different 12s since Greenwood. If the Flood (injured early remember) Tuilagi Joseph combination doesnt work then i have said 36 might very well be the answer. Either way i think we should all be excited about how things are shaping up.

by Shifty Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:50 am

Triangulation wrote:Hands up who can see where England are trying to go in attack?

Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Knock on

Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, penalty

Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, kick

Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, forced into touch

Bash, yellow card Manu Tuilagi got excited

Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, knock on

first 20 minutes of the game over with

Wales finally get the ball pass it to George north and Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash,

Ruck, one step, two step, three step, four step, five step Mike Phillips passes to Priestland who knocks it on.

England get the ball, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, knock on

Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, penalty 6-0 England

Priestland and Phillips are caught at the bottom of a ruck and Gethin Jenkins takes it at first reciever and beats 12 men and scores from 50 meters.

Easy! Hug

by beshocked Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:54 am

Admittedly most fans of their own club believe they have a decent pack. thumbsup

Also it's all relative. Decent pack compared to whom?

Back on topic poor JTH he's been left out in the cold.

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