English refs and Irish teams

I dont know which phases me more... having to travel away to play ASM CA or having an English referee. Some interesting statistics:

Wayne Barnes who along with Dave Pearson, would probably be one of the two refereeing appointments which the Leinster supporters would least have wanted.

Irish teams have not tended to do well with the English official in charge. Indeed, in six games under his control, Ireland have lost five, beginning with the 16-12 defeat to Wales at Croke Park in 2008.

The one exception was the following year, when Ireland beat Wales 17-15 in Cardiff to clinch the Grand Slam, but that was despite a 15-5 penalty count in favour of the home side.

In 2010, Barnes oversaw France’s 33-10 win over Ireland in Paris, when the penalty count was 11-7 in favour of France, and in June of that year, in Barnes’ first game in New Zealand since his much criticised handling of the All Blacks’ 2007 World Cup quarter-final defeat to France in Cardiff, he sent off Jamie Heaslip in the 16th minute and yellow-carded Ronan O’Gara in the home side’s 66-28 win.

Barnes also refereed Ireland’s 10-6 World Cup warm-up defeat in Scotland last August and, most recently of course, only yellow-carded Bradley Davies for that spear tackle on Donnacha Ryan before wrongly yellow-carding Stephen Ferris in awarding Wales their match-winning penalty.

He was helped in the first of those decisions by Pearson, who is again running the line on Sunday. Pearson was also in charge of Ireland’s 17-all draw in Paris, when the penalty count was 11-4 to the home side and of Leinster’s draw in the pool stages away to Montpellier, the only time in his last 14 Heineken Cup games that the home side didn’t win.


........why do you think this is?

At least you don't have Alain Rolland reffing you. He's a truly poor ref who wants to be the star of the show.

Funnily enough my two favourite English refs are Pearson and Barnes. Maybe because they seem to ref well when my side play.

Best ref hands down is Nigel Owens though.

Youve got to admit though... those are some crazy stats, beshocked. We hate seeing either of them wheeled out...

Rolland is actually widely regarded as one of the best around... it seems to be the Welsh who have the biggest axe to grind, even though the rest of the ugby world agree that his call in the SF was the right one.

Barnes and Pearson seem to have another agenda, though.

BoyneRFC wrote:
........why do you think this is?

English refs will tend to police the breakdown more than Rabo ones?

the only time in his last 14 Heineken Cup games that the home side didn’t win

That's a scary stat...

Also, Barnes was taken off the IRB panel of elite refs but Rolland wasn’t.

Is Rolland really regarded as one of the best around?

You say the penalty count in the 2010 loss was against Ireland. Funnily enough reading the BBC's account it says in one part that Barnes was generous to Ireland.


Jerry Flannery was fortunate to remain on the field when he took a wild kick at Vincent Clerc in the 22nd minute but referee Wayne Barnes was lenient and merely reversed a penalty decision.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/8508468.stm

Rolland was appalling in the England vs France 6 nations game. Almost cost England the match. He hasn't been given a huge kicking because England won despite his influence.

It's pretty dodgy having a half French man looking after so many games involving French teams.

LondonTiger wrote:

BoyneRFC wrote:
........why do you think this is?

English refs will tend to police the breakdown more than Rabo ones?

Interesting. So you think it is the "interpretation" at the breakdown?Is that at everyones breakdown or just Irish teams ones? Honestly, these 2 are so biased it is ridiculous. It almost spoils the game before it kicks off.

Yip, 14 Heineken Cup games. 14.

The away sides must really go off and practice their clearing out so....

Barnes and Pearson's "agenda" is to ref the games to the best of their ability - and correctly. Jeepers, and its the welsh fans who get all the bad press on this forum for moaning about refs............hold a mirror up irish lads

Those stats mean nothing in isolation. You would need to review what the penalties are given for, how do they compare with their stats for other teams, what other refs give Irish teams, etc, etc. On top of that you would have to review each game to determine whether decisions were correct or not. On do the same for a decent sample of other refs.


Or it could be that Irish teams usually get away with murder with most Owens type refs (allow teams to cheat to 'let the game flow') and when they have decent ref who follows the IRB guidance they struggle. just a thought.

HammerofThunor do you not like Owens? I think he's a good ref.

Simple answer, don't give away penalties. I wouldn't mind betting that most prnalties were at the scrum, and for sealing off at the breakdown.

Nothing like getting your excuses in early.

BoyneRFC wrote:Youve got to admit though... those are some crazy stats, beshocked. We hate seeing either of them wheeled out...

Rolland is actually widely regarded as one of the best around... it seems to be the Welsh who have the biggest axe to grind, even though the rest of the ugby world agree that his call in the SF was the right one.

Barnes and Pearson seem to have another agenda, though.

You can take one away from that rugby world - I thought it was a ridiculous call and he is an erchie hole of the highest order!

I don't think the English refs have anything against us Irish.

The NZ game the red was for a blatant knee to the head or something. At the time I don't think people gave out about it.

In the Ireland warmup with Scotland we lost because Scotland scored a try not because the ref was bad.

This is a made up stat but not far wrong that Munster, Leinster, Tigers and Tolouse get more penalities given to them over the last four years by quite a bit. And that they alll win their home games bar one or two and so the refs must favour them as they are the biggest brands in the HC so the refs have been told to make sure they get through.

Is that Stat wrong no, but It doesn't take into account that that they are the four best.

Italian teams get more penalties given in the breakdown as they spend most of their time there

Mickado wrote:

the only time in his last 14 Heineken Cup games that the home side didn’t win

That's a scary stat...

and blatantly untrue - check the ref for Edinburgh's win in Paris in January.

If the 14 was true then you could say he favours Leinster as they got a draw

Boyne, you naughty fella, getting your excuses in early?!

Boyne I don't think you should be too concerned at the above stats. You guys will be seriously up against it with the ref and Leinster must dominate the breakdown, because that is your game revolves around quick ball, multiphase play and dictating the pace of the game.

Clermont will try every trick in the book to slow you down, and get away a lot no doubt , whereas you will need to be squeeky clean.

However Leinster are much better drilled than Ireland at the breakdown so I'm not sure how relevent those stats are.

Also with the refs you would have to look at them in the domestic league.

I am also sure you could say that certain refs hate cetain coloured teams or teams from the south of different countries.

A true stat is that when Irish teams play in cities by the sea they win more.

It does help that all four play their home games in cities by the sea but stats are stats

From an English point of view Barnes and Pearson ref in line with the other AP refs, this is at odds with the Celtic/Rabo refs particularly in relation to the breakdown (sealing off normally the main area of difference). Rolland in particular is often viewed as useless at the breakdown by English fans as he lets a lot of what would be clear penalties in an AP game go. Owens has previously been as bad but is vastly improved this season.

As for personal preference I think David Rose is continually the best English ref as he has a nice no nonsense manner and has a better grasp on the scrum than Barnes who has none.

formerly known as Sam wrote:From an English point of view Barnes and Pearson ref in line with the other AP refs, this is at odds with the Celtic/Rabo refs particularly in relation to the breakdown (sealing off normally the main area of difference). Rolland in particular is often viewed as useless at the breakdown by English fans as he lets a lot of what would be clear penalties in an AP game go. Owens has previously been as bad but is vastly improved this season.

As for personal preference I think David Rose is continually the best English ref as he has a nice no nonsense manner and has a better grasp on the scrum than Barnes who has none.

Agreed, Sam, think Rosey has done an excellent job whenever I've seen him this season

From an English point of view Barnes and Pearson ref in line with the other AP refs, this is at odds with the Celtic/Rabo refs particularly in relation to the breakdown (sealing off normally the main area of difference)

Interesting....

I think Irish teams do better than French out of English refs. They speak the same language and are more used to the style of reffing.

Rollers is a good ref too. They have their off days, and every breakdown could yield about 6 penos for either side.

I used to like Owens but he is gone very "star of the show" lately. I don't think Rollers is like that. He just scrupulously calls it as he sees it without sugar coating it.

He had the balls to card a Welsh player in a WC semi ffs.

I don't give a flying flip who the ref is on Sunday. We just have to beat who is in front of us, and stay on the right side of whoever is reffing us.

The whole Henry thing in the Soccer a few years back showed Irish supporters in a very bad light imho.

Hope the Rugby ones don't go down that road.

Whinging is not a good look. Win lose or draw.

beshocked wrote:HammerofThunor do you not like Owens? I think he's a good ref.

I normally think Owens is pretty good but he did seem to let the Irish teams get away with a lot in some matches - eg in the Munster v Saints match he seemed to look the other way a lot near the end to hand Munster the win ...

beshocked wrote:HammerofThunor do you not like Owens? I think he's a good ref.

No. I find he let's too much go and then randomly penalises teams for something he's let go all game to stamp his authority. I've never really linked his reffing style (but understand why others do). He's one of the worst for "don't do that, don't do that, don't do that, he's done it, crack on". Often around hands in the ruck, tells a player to let go, they ignore him, win the ball and he waves play on. He also stops fair competition at the ruck, just verbally telling players to leave it, to speed up play. Legally challenging for the ball at rucks is a fair way of slowing the ball down and shouldn't be stopped. It also means that more players are involved in rucks (to compete and protect) freeing up space.

I like the way he generally communicates with players but that's about it.

I never get how people give out about Clancy and it is always not he gives the wrong things but he never lets the game flow.

People feel he blows up for too much but rarely say what he blew up for was wrong.

Are we getting into the cliche S15 of let the game flow and sure the best team will come out on top 9/10 times

Brendan wrote:Also with the refs you would have to look at them in the domestic league.

I am also sure you could say that certain refs hate cetain coloured teams or teams from the south of different countries.

A true stat is that when Irish teams play in cities by the sea they win more.

It does help that all four play their home games in cities by the sea but stats are stats

Why do more Egyptians drown in the Nile than Russians.

Is it because Egyptians have "drown in the Nile" personalities? Perhaps they are more careless as a race?

Sometimes stats can be made to support someone's theory. In this case Gerry Thornly's.

formerly known as Sam wrote:From an English point of view Barnes and Pearson ref in line with the other AP refs, this is at odds with the Celtic/Rabo refs particularly in relation to the breakdown (sealing off normally the main area of difference). Rolland in particular is often viewed as useless at the breakdown by English fans as he lets a lot of what would be clear penalties in an AP game go. Owens has previously been as bad but is vastly improved this season.

As for personal preference I think David Rose is continually the best English ref as he has a nice no nonsense manner and has a better grasp on the scrum than Barnes who has none.

I find there's a BIG difference in tacklers letting go and who counts as a support tackler.

Brendan wrote:I never get how people give out about Clancy and it is always not he gives the wrong things but he never lets the game flow.

People feel he blows up for too much but rarely say what he blew up for was wrong.

Are we getting into the cliche S15 of let the game flow and sure the best team will come out on top 9/10 times

Brendan, you are right, but the thing about Clownshoes is that he gives the impression of having zero empathy with the players . Far worse, is Fitzgibbon, who is just generally clueless (and I won't even get started on the standard of Scottish refs - thank goodness we don't see them that often!)

HammerofThunor wrote:

beshocked wrote:HammerofThunor do you not like Owens? I think he's a good ref.

No. I find he let's too much go and then randomly penalises teams for something he's let go all game to stamp his authority. I've never really linked his reffing style (but understand why others do). He's one of the worst for "don't do that, don't do that, don't do that, he's done it, crack on". Often around hands in the ruck, tells a player to let go, they ignore him, win the ball and he waves play on. He also stops fair competition at the ruck, just verbally telling players to leave it, to speed up play. Legally challenging for the ball at rucks is a fair way of slowing the ball down and shouldn't be stopped. It also means that more players are involved in rucks (to compete and protect) freeing up space.

I like the way he generally communicates with players but that's about it.

I agree, he pisses me off sometimes

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Brendan wrote:I never get how people give out about Clancy and it is always not he gives the wrong things but he never lets the game flow.

People feel he blows up for too much but rarely say what he blew up for was wrong.

Are we getting into the cliche S15 of let the game flow and sure the best team will come out on top 9/10 times

Brendan, you are right, but the thing about Clownshoes is that he gives the impression of having zero empathy with the players . Far worse, is Fitzgibbon, who is just generally clueless (and I won't even get started on the standard of Scottish refs - thank goodness we don't see them that often!)

Clancy has improved a lot but still has his bad days. Fitzgibbon Lord help us.

The support tackle is the big one as sometimes you have two people and only one releases. If they could go back to the rucking the players would be fairer to each other

As a Quins fan, I have to say I feel the same about George Clancy as you do about Wayne Barnes. Come to think of it, I feel the same way about Wayne Barnes as you do about Wayne Barnes.

I'd rather have a French ref. Romain Poite performed superbly in the Munster vs Quins game last year.

I find there's a BIG difference in tacklers letting go and who counts as a support tackler

This is true but for me the main difference appears to be the challenge at the ruck. So often the Rabo and to an extent the French refs (particularly the normally excellent Poite) allow players to arch over the ball and rest their head and arms on the floor as they hang onto the ball. Their feet are still touching the floor but they are not supporting their own body weight and all they've done is kill the ruck. This is common place particularly with Irish teams and Mr Rory Best is the worst culprite (he gave away a couple of these against England in the 6N) but Rabo refs don't ping it so it's effectively allowed.

I don't know why with the three leagues being so close together that they have a rugby panel with refs from each country but have to meet a standard and assign them to all leagues.
So barnes does Tigers v Exeter one week, then Brive v SF and then Scarlets v Munster.

When the HC would be on the refs would all be similar.

In soccer you see english refs ref different in the prem to the CL

Either the refs need to be treated as euro refs or have a standard that all refs agree on in the euro competitions

I know the Refs do go to other leagues but it is only once or twice.

That way we can all hate all the refs equally

Also I do think its funny that SH refs do the 6N but its never NH in the 3N

beshocked wrote:Is Rolland really regarded as one of the best around?

He's on the elite panel of referees in world rugby so, yes. If he wasn't regarded as one of the very best he wouldn't have been reffing a RWC semi-final in the first place!

tatterd wrote:Barnes and Pearson's "agenda" is to ref the games to the best of their ability - and correctly. Jeepers, and its the welsh fans who get all the bad press on this forum for moaning about refs............hold a mirror up irish lads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZcBJunTc0A

If you go to the 6.38 mark on the video youll see that Pearson is at least partially sighted ignoring Nathan Hines clearing out Chris Henry to create space for Clermont to score a try

Brendan wrote:The support tackle is the big one as sometimes you have two people and only one releases. If they could go back to the rucking the players would be fairer to each other

I agree, it won't happen but thats the big difference now than in the past.

I think a big difference is that in the prem, a lot of players just look to the ref to penalise players rather than clear out the ruck first.

The contact skills, ball presentation, ruck clearouts, ball securing are all generally much better in the Rabo teams, particularly the Irish (and specifically Leinster), because the refs allow a contest there.

The SH is even more competitive. Players don't have devine right to quick ball and the attacking team need to take a fair amount of responsibility to police their own breakdown and secure their own attacking ball.

If you go to the 6.38 mark on the video youll see that Pearson is at least partially sighted ignoring Nathan Hines clearing out Chris Henry to create space for Clermont to score a try

Compared to Rolland refusing to check for double movement on Fofana's first try despite Murphy requesting he send the decision upstairs and then running into Murphy for Fofana's second try with Murphy the only covering defender with a chance of getting there (pretty slim chance mind). Was not enamoured by him after that game (the double YC did nothing to help his view in my eyes either). It happens though.

The contact skills, ball presentation, ruck clearouts, ball securing are all generally much better in the Rabo teams, particularly the Irish (and specifically Leinster), because the refs allow a contest there.

Interesting. I'd say the means of competition at the breakdown are far more imaginative because of the degree of licence allowed by the officials. On the other hand the AP teams tend to be a lot cleaner at the breakdown, especially around the tackle area as they need to be to avoid conceding penalties. Which method allows better skills is debateable and depends on the official in control at the time. On the basis of the HEC you'd say the Irish teams in the Rabo were better but in the 6N that didn't show as the Irish were pinged or suffered slow ball at the breakdown and conceded a couple of tries without scoring any against an England team with next to no creative powers.

A little learning from the other would be beneficial and a unified top level reffing association in Europe is an excellent idea so that the players might actually expect to be reffed the same way through the entire domestic season.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Interesting. I'd say the means of competition at the breakdown are far more imaginative because of the degree of licence allowed by the officials. On the other hand the AP teams tend to be a lot cleaner at the breakdown, especially around the tackle area as they need to be to avoid conceding penalties. Which method allows better skills is debateable and depends on the official in control at the time. On the basis of the HEC you'd say the Irish teams in the Rabo were better but in the 6N that didn't show as the Irish were pinged or suffered slow ball at the breakdown and conceded a couple of tries without scoring any against an England team with next to no creative powers.

Absolutely, Ireland were beasted at the breakdown in the 6N but that to me is an exception to a regular pattern that has been prevelant over the past 5/6 season were generally England have struggled at the breakdown.

Its just a theory of mine that may have no merit, but generally the best sides are extremely aggressive and smart at the breakdown... the AB's and Leinster are a the best examples in the game right now.

the AB's and Leinster are a the best examples in the game right now.

They are both very aggressive but also well drilled in defence. In both cases I'd say the defensive pattern and organisation is just as important as their smarts at the breakdown particularly in the case of Leinster who don't always play with a standard fetcher (Jennings) in the team. By denying the opposition easy metres they are pushing them into trying more elaborate methods to break the gain line which tend to be higher risk or are hitting the easy option carriers hard with numbers behind the gainline which is the best kind of ruck to look for a turnover.

I think both the ABs and Leinster's launch damaging attacks from pretty much anywhere tends to drive opposition to concede the penalty rather than risk the quick ball turnover attack.

I don't mind Pearson as a referee. He is very pernickety which doesn't suit some teams and harms the spectacle but in general he is consistent to both teams.

Barnes on the other hand seems to go into games with a pre-conceived agenda based on his homework rather than the evidence in front of him. He was absolutely right to red card Heaslip in the ABs game, BUT Heaslip had become so frustrated by WB not policing the breakdown that he took the law into his own hands. Considering it was WBs first game reffing NZ since his perceived debacle in the 07 RWC who could blame him for trying to ingratiate himself with the most important team on the planet?

Brendan wrote:I don't know why with the three leagues being so close together that they have a rugby panel with refs from each country but have to meet a standard and assign them to all leagues.
So barnes does Tigers v Exeter one week, then Brive v SF and then Scarlets v Munster.

When the HC would be on the refs would all be similar.

In soccer you see english refs ref different in the prem to the CL

Either the refs need to be treated as euro refs or have a standard that all refs agree on in the euro competitions

I know the Refs do go to other leagues but it is only once or twice.

That way we can all hate all the refs equally

Also I do think its funny that SH refs do the 6N but its never NH in the 3N

Agree with you except on the last point - NH refs do referee in the 3/4N

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Brendan wrote:I don't know why with the three leagues being so close together that they have a rugby panel with refs from each country but have to meet a standard and assign them to all leagues.
So barnes does Tigers v Exeter one week, then Brive v SF and then Scarlets v Munster.

When the HC would be on the refs would all be similar.

In soccer you see english refs ref different in the prem to the CL

Either the refs need to be treated as euro refs or have a standard that all refs agree on in the euro competitions

I know the Refs do go to other leagues but it is only once or twice.

That way we can all hate all the refs equally

Also I do think its funny that SH refs do the 6N but its never NH in the 3N

Agree with you except on the last point - NH refs do referee in the 3/4N

It must just be the few games I see.

Considering that the HC is played in an area the size of either Aus or SA its not hard for the refs to be given the weekend away.

The Rabo do it anyway so it can't be to much of a cost.

also there would be no harm in mixing ref teams aswell though that does happen to some extent.
No harm in having the big refs do some line running to it might make the line men more important

The only half decent English ref over the years was Spreadbury but only towards the end of his career. Irish teams have never done well recently with Pearson, Barnes and especially Chris White before them.

I wouldnt call it bias but in the 50/50 decisions we never get them and we only get penalties from them when they are blatent.

Possibly the reason the English intl team dont do well lately is because the competition at the breakdown is sterile in the AP. When they come up against teams that compete at the breakdown they struggle.

For some reason when I think of Tony Spreadbury the word supercilious springs into my mind?

What about Irish refs and every single country...

Brendan wrote:I don't know why with the three leagues being so close together that they have a rugby panel with refs from each country but have to meet a standard and assign them to all leagues.
So barnes does Tigers v Exeter one week, then Brive v SF and then Scarlets v Munster.

When the HC would be on the refs would all be similar.

In soccer you see english refs ref different in the prem to the CL

Either the refs need to be treated as euro refs or have a standard that all refs agree on in the euro competitions

I know the Refs do go to other leagues but it is only once or twice.

That way we can all hate all the refs equally

Also I do think its funny that SH refs do the 6N but its never NH in the 3N

Great idea, if only it could happen.

Seems like refs are getting streetwise to your cheating at the breakdown. My advice would be to give away less penalties from now...