Suggestions for the Rabbo Pro 12 going forward.

There was an interesting discussion at lunch yesterday over a proposed but yet un-announced concept of generating more money for lower positioned clubs in the Rabbo Pro 12.

It has been suggested that within the Championship, for the benefit of competition and profit, that a championship within the league be organised for the future. That national teams playing derbies would be fighting for a different, seperately sponsored prize as well as the overall championship, added to this also seperately sponsored inter-national trophies for most wins over certain rival nations, including trophies/prize money for Welsh/Irish, scots/Italian etc etc etc...!

The reason being that it gives other battles and other opportunities to mid table teams hopefully further improving the competition, the audience (at the ticket office and tv company) the profit to be made and to decrease the margins of difference between top teams and bottom.

I can see many benefits and was quite sold on the idea, keen to hear your thoughts.

This is a good point. I think for the best part the league needs to be revamped. Just not for the financial gains for the clubs would get from attracting new sponsors but also for the fans. The league plays second string to the H-cup while in England and France it holds almost if not better prestige.

I would back the idea of having a national championship inside the league. The Scots already have one in the 1872 cup so why not bring back the Irish Inter-Provincial? And a Welsh one as well? Leinster would have won it this year but a few years ago Connaught would have won it after they turned over Leinster and Munster. Just a simple shield which would spice up the derbies even more, give teams at the bottom something to fight for and make less dead rubbers. Don't think Rabo would be allow for extra sponsors to get involved. So perhaps prize money or just revenue from tickets from the extra spice of the Irish Inter-Provincial Championship.

If we are talking serious changes I would get rid of the Italian sides. Though it is a little bit of hypocrite thing to say, as I am always talking about spreading rugby, I don't think the Italians bring anything to the party, if anything they dilute the product. By having more teams means more matches which ends with games played during the international windows and more second string sides going out. If we want a strong league then there has to be more full strength teams out there.

Also selling Celtic rugby is much easier than selling a European league. It my experience it is anyway, with having a few football fans. When they hear that the Rebo is more or less a Euro league then watch games with empty stadiums they get turned off, but I remember talkin to a few friends about Celtic rugby and it seem to work.

And another note, go back to the Celtic league title and trophy. 'The Rabo Celtic League' has a better ring than what we have now.

They have a system for the semi finals in France that one city gets both semi finals and it is decided from the start.

So this year regardless of who finishes where, both playoff semi finals take place in Toulouse.

This leads to a festival style atmosphere with rugby fans planning their trips there in advance. Would/Could it work on a rotational basis between Dublin, Edinburgh, Milan/Rome and Cardiff.

Maes - I like your idea, however using this season as an example;

Leinster have steamed away with the RaboPro12 Trophy, the Irish Trophy and the Irish/Welsh Trophy, the Scarlets have the Welsh Trophy, and Glasgow would walk away with the Sctottish Trophy and the Scottish/Italian Trophy.

Seeing as all these teams are in the top 5 of the league at the moment, and in the play-off race (well LEinster are sorted) with the last game to go, so we really need to spice things up?

With 12 teams can we not go three fours where you have a shield/plate playoff.

That way if every two places means a home semi or a better cup/money. Not sure how it would work prize wise but surely you could have the Bank of Ireland Sheild and the RBS Plate.

The big one would still be the Rabo playoffs

I'm open to any idea's that make the League attract more fans. Except changing HC qualification. Here's some suggestions

1. Here's one another poster came up with a while ago. Can't remember who. The HC seedings are decided by league position. This would immediately make league position more important. It would require the other 2 leagues to do the same I guess. But they might be open to the idea, if they think it will increase the pressure on the Rabo teams in their league.

2. Wales and Ireland could try double header matches in their national stadiums. Ospryes v Dragons and Cardiff v Scarlets all in one day in the Millenium stadium. Would it pull a big crowd?

3. Scotland already has the 1872 Cup. Why don't Wlaes and Ireland have a trophy too? it could be like a boxing belt. The holder keeps hold of it until a team from their nation beats them and takes it from them. So Leinster would have held it for a year now. But in another year all the provinces might be taking it from each other.

Could do a winner takes on shield Like the Ranfurly in New Zealand or the Mclaren in scottish club rugby. One club starts with the shield and holds it until they get beat, at which point it passes on to the team that beat them and then they keep it and so on.

The main problem the Rabo have these days is the Welsh crowd attendances. Aironi is another problem but it looks like they'll just be replaced by another team.

The league is improving all the time and the quality has gone up. I remember some matches in the early days of the league and the difference between then and now is massive and getting bigger. New sponsorship has come in this season and the league is starting to earn respect although there are some people who still like to say nobody takes it seriously.

Aren't the Welsh derbies already well supported? A few years ago the only ospreys game that would sell out was Scarlets in the Liberty at christmas. If you want to boost interest it's the Welsh v Irish that needs boosting. Not sure how.

HammerofThunor wrote:Aren't the Welsh derbies already well supported? A few years ago the only ospreys game that would sell out was Scarlets in the Liberty at christmas. If you want to boost interest it's the Welsh v Irish that needs boosting. Not sure how.

From my experience any of the Welsh teams v Munster is a big game, but that’s because they bring amazing away support with them. The other Welsh derbie thats has increased in ferocity is the O's V Dragons game. They had ~14,000 at the Liberty stadium this time around. My mate says that they O's are the Dragons second biggest hated team (i don’t think he means hated though) because of them signing Bearman and Fussle and also because of the close game which the Dragons won at RP this season and last. Rivalries are built over time and this is clearly happening within the regional set up. I think the Blues and Scarlets need to work on ours though.

'Derbies' are so insular. Now that we all know the world is round, isn't it much more fun going out and trying to beat the side in the country next to you rather than once again beating the side that lives a short bicycle ride up a potholed country road?

I'm not a fan of 'derbies'. Good games in their own right but to suggest a season requires more of them to interest the crowds is pretty much to suggest a wicked witch still needs a drowning to prove she's innocent of witchdom

True Hammer. Leinster and Munster have a larger number of fans that will turn out week in week out. Ulster have steady but not spectacular attendances. Everybody else seems to suffer a dramatic fall in attendances when playing teams form other nations. Matches against Irish, Italian and Scottish teams simply haven't caught the imagination in Wales and don't draw big crowds.

I think time will help this. There's already a rivalry and a bit of animosity bubbling between Munster and Ospreys. In fact, Munster seem to be widely disliked in Wales. I'm sure we'll see these rivalries grow, given time. But there'll never be much travelling fans in these cross-nation matches. I wonder is there any way the 4 unions could organize cheap travel packages for certain matches?

I guess we could pool the 4 Irish teams together, the 4 Welsh together, and the 2 Italian, and Scottish, into 3 pools of 4.

You could play each of the other 2 pools of teams once a season, rotating home and away each season, and the teams in your pool 4 times each, twice home and away each season.

Ospreys:
1 x Leinster (Home)
1 x Munster (Home)
1 x Connacht (Away)
1 x Ulster (Away)
1 x Edinbrugh (Home)
1 x Glasgow (Away)
1 x Aironi (Home)
1 x Treviso (Away)
4 x Dragons (2 x Home, 2 x Away)
4 x Blues (2 x Home, 2 x Away)
4 x Scarlets (2 x Home, 2 x Away)
= 20 games per season.

Working out for the irish always the welsh btiching about the rabo

The problem doesn't really lie with the Rabo, it lies with manufactured regions. The lack of grassroots support from within those regions themselves means low gate money and subsequent lack of competitiveness. It will be interesting to see how the success of the Scottish sides translates into increased attendances. Empty grounds need to be largely filled with home support (as in the S15).

To add some spice to the end of the season at the bottom of the table perhaps the Rabo could consider penalties for finishing in the bottom two? Every team would be asked to deposit say £200k with the PRO12 and whomever finished last would forfeit it, and second last would only get £100k back. The resulting £300k would then be distributed across the top 9 teams as prize money.

tecphobe wrote:Working out for the irish always the welsh btiching about the rabo

I find the Welsh bitching annoying sometimes too tecphobe. But look at it. To be fair, they did see their traditional and much loved club game swept aside for new regions/super clubs. It had to be done but it was never gonna be an easy or smooth transition after all that proud history. On top of that the regions have been run quite badly. Just look at Cardiff Blues. Paying rent on a stadium they don't use and also paying huge, crippling rent on a big, shiny soccer stadium that the fans hate. Then look at some of their poor performances on the field, and players leaving. It's no wonder they're bitching.

The Welsh just have to start getting things right off the field. Make sure the current exodus isn't continuously repeated. And start winning things on the field. Look at Ulster. They were a shambles in 2008. But there were changes at the top, improvements in facilities, wise signings. The right people in place in the administrative, coaching and playing personnel. Now they're in the HC final, expanding Ravenhill and to top it off, Tommy Bowe is coming home.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
The Welsh just have to start getting things right off the field. Make sure the current exodus isn't continuously repeated. And start winning things on the field. Look at Ulster. They were a shambles in 2008. But there were changes at the top, improvements in facilities, wise signings. The right people in place in the administrative, coaching and playing personnel. Now they're in the HC final, expanding Ravenhill and to top it off, Tommy Bowe is coming home.

I appreciate the point you're making Feckless - organisation seems to be in tatters in some of the regions. But, I think the solution is simpler and as you alluded to. Getting things right ON the field is in my opinion the much quicker realisable goal than getting the business end sorted. You don't have a business if you don't have a buyer and you don't have a buyer if you don't have a product.

You're right in that Welsh regional difficulties can be solved by Welsh players and their teams doing more on the field to consolidate identity. And that simply means playing better and thus winning more. They have the players, they have the standards, the talent, the history and, if correctly motivated, the drive. They lack nothing except coaching (practical and psychological) Can you imagine what one of the Regions might have achieved even this year with someone like Bradley at the helm, considering how his attitude galvanised the less naturally effusive Edinburgh?

Welsh regions need to know from which end of the cashcow the funds will start coming in and I'm afraid that's simply by being more competitive in Pro12 and HC, getting the right coaching standards to effect it and doing what it should say on the tin of any successful side - winning. Winning will attract a crowd... a crowd won't come on the basis of a boardroom business plan.

tecphobe wrote:Working out for the irish always the welsh btiching about the rabo

People vote with their feet, and sadly many fans are flocking back to the Welsh Premiership to see traditional Welsh derbies.

We prefer to see Welsh teams against each other.

AlynDavies wrote:

tecphobe wrote:Working out for the irish always the welsh btiching about the rabo

People vote with their feet, and sadly many fans are flocking back to the Welsh Premiership to see traditional Welsh derbies.

We prefer to see Welsh teams against each other.

What's put me off regional rugby is the number of times I've "given it a chance" only to be so unimpressed by the level of quality on the pitch. Perhaps my expectations were too high. I never understand how welsh regions seem to raise the intensity against each other and English clubs but no one else.

Surely Wales needs to treat Irish clubs as the "new enemy".

Can't really agree with the way this thread seems to have turned in to another grey view on the Welsh Regions, for example the attendences at PYS are steadily increasing and intrest is growing from the policy of developing local players rather than paying big money the Club can't afford for expensive imports. As a result of this policy I am hearing much more intrest again in the feeder clubs as fans want to see who the next generation coming through are.
It looks to me as if the O's have seen this model working also and are cutting their cloth in a similar fashion, with the catchment area they have I can see it been even more succesfull for them.
Most of the negativity seems to stem from the current situation at the Blues but I'm not even convinced that its really as bad as is been made out there as most of the players that are leaving are the wrong end of their careers for a Coach to be rebuilding a team with, and how many are actually geniunelly 1st class players? how many of the players that have left would have been good enough to play for Leinster, Munster or Ulster ? Only Gethin in my book who is 32 this year and is looking to build his pension before retiring.

The Regions got it wrong at 1st by trying to buy success but IMHO have now turned the corner and are finally operating on the right lines. With a review of the club scene due I believe the talent coming through from the Clubs and Academies will provide more than enough players for the teams and enough local intrest to increase the attendences.
The other way to increase the attendences is to not televise every home game in Wales live, all it would take is a return to Saturday afternoon kick offs with the games televised after they finish to put a few thousand more in the stadiums and potentially a load more in the local pubs after the games to rewatch the action and argue about the referee.

In fairness I think we are being to hard on ourselves.

Munster, Leinster, Ulster, O's, Scarlets and probably Warriors would give teams in the top 1/3 of the other leagues a run for their money.

Edinburgh & Cardiff can beat anyone at home and a challagne when focused.

Dragons, Connacht and Treviso are LBP teams in most cases and will beat you if you underestimate them.

That leaves the Italian second team which we all knew would take time, it is only because Treviso are doing so well that we forget that the second Italian should be poor.

For next season I think that Connacht will be stronger, as will the two Scottish teams.

O's and Scarlets will be stronger.

I think the other two welsh will be weaker but Cardiff will be compeditive unless they go down the Edinbrugh route.

Treviso will continue to improve and I tipp them to finish third in the HC group and if a weak group they could win all the home games and finish second.

So for next year there will be 10 teams in a shout of the playoffs at half way. Proabalby about 8 with five and about that up to the end.

Brendan wrote:In fairness I think we are being to hard on ourselves.

Munster, Leinster, Ulster, O's, Scarlets and probably Warriors would give teams in the top 1/3 of the other leagues a run for their money.

To be fair I think that the likes of Leinster and Munster would be int he play-off spots in the Jeff, and that the Scarlets, Glasgow and Ulster would be in a battle end of season to try and sneak in.

2ndtimeround wrote:Can't really agree with the way this thread seems to have turned in to another grey view on the Welsh Regions, for example the attendences at PYS are steadily increasing and intrest is growing from the policy of developing local players rather than paying big money the Club can't afford for expensive imports. As a result of this policy I am hearing much more intrest again in the feeder clubs as fans want to see who the next generation coming through are.
It looks to me as if the O's have seen this model working also and are cutting their cloth in a similar fashion, with the catchment area they have I can see it been even more succesfull for them.
Most of the negativity seems to stem from the current situation at the Blues but I'm not even convinced that its really as bad as is been made out there as most of the players that are leaving are the wrong end of their careers for a Coach to be rebuilding a team with, and how many are actually geniunelly 1st class players? how many of the players that have left would have been good enough to play for Leinster, Munster or Ulster ? Only Gethin in my book who is 32 this year and is looking to build his pension before retiring.

The Regions got it wrong at 1st by trying to buy success but IMHO have now turned the corner and are finally operating on the right lines. With a review of the club scene due I believe the talent coming through from the Clubs and Academies will provide more than enough players for the teams and enough local intrest to increase the attendences.
The other way to increase the attendences is to not televise every home game in Wales live, all it would take is a return to Saturday afternoon kick offs with the games televised after they finish to put a few thousand more in the stadiums and potentially a load more in the local pubs after the games to rewatch the action and argue about the referee.

Good post 2tr ... you sure you're Welsh?!

It seems to me that the Welsh Premiership isn't seen as feeders to the regions by a lot of fans and some clubs resent producing players in say the Blues region only for them to represent "Cardiff" whom they see as a traditional enemy.

As for attendances

Leinster and Munster will get 15-20k a game

Ulster will be 12-15k a game

The Scarlets will be 10k

I think all others will improve.

Even look at Treviso they are growing and in a couple of years when they are a big six team they will get 6k a week

We are not as big as other teams but look at Sarries not exactly big attendances. Only the T14 get the 12-15k for each game.

Ulster Leinster will be an Aviva sellout and I think Connacht will go close to selling Raven hill and Thomond as they send more fans.

I do think that having a plate or two floating around that was paraded before each game by the holder would had some bite

The Scarlets are showing how to grow in wales and why the irish get so many, grow local. Scarlets have a small population spread out over a big area so they are winning club people over as they follow their player as he progresses

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Brendan wrote:In fairness I think we are being to hard on ourselves.

Munster, Leinster, Ulster, O's, Scarlets and probably Warriors would give teams in the top 1/3 of the other leagues a run for their money.

To be fair I think that the likes of Leinster and Munster would be int he play-off spots in the Jeff, and that the Scarlets, Glasgow and Ulster would be in a battle end of season to try and sneak in.

That is what I was getting at. Rabo squads have to rotate but have to stay at a high level as givens like Dragons, Treviso, Connacht and Endinbrugh will beat a second string team and probably a 1.5 team at home.

Could someone do a stats on win/play ratio for the bottom teams of the Rabo over the last few years. Think you will find it rises while the top drops. It would probably be equal to the Jeff and above the T14

Leinster is just a Dublin Superclub for the D4 heads anyway

As Leinster have shown the last time that was put about was when Munster stuffed them in the Semi's. Everyone loves a winner and maybe that was why O's where the first real region as people had to justif the following.

Were the Blues just a cardif superclub when they won the LV and almost got to the HC final

Yes and they still are. And don't remind me of that HC matach, I was there, kicking ? KICKING ?!!!

The Scarlets have a good plan in place to grow naturally. The problem with the O's and Blues is they tried to go too big too soon and now they have to take a step back and reorganise things a bit. Dragons, I don't know much about them but they have done stadium upgrades so they're looking to the future too.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Maes - I like your idea, however using this season as an example;

Leinster have steamed away with the RaboPro12 Trophy, the Irish Trophy and the Irish/Welsh Trophy, the Scarlets have the Welsh Trophy, and Glasgow would walk away with the Sctottish Trophy and the Scottish/Italian Trophy.

Seeing as all these teams are in the top 5 of the league at the moment, and in the play-off race (well LEinster are sorted) with the last game to go, so we really need to spice things up?

I think the Ospreys win the Irish/Welsh trophy, they only lost to Ulster away, beat all the other provinces home and away this year... Us O's fans have to count our minor successes.

This may have given the Dragons and Connacht more incentive, they seem very competitive in the Derbies though not so much so in the league in general.

maestegmafia wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Maes - I like your idea, however using this season as an example;

Leinster have steamed away with the RaboPro12 Trophy, the Irish Trophy and the Irish/Welsh Trophy, the Scarlets have the Welsh Trophy, and Glasgow would walk away with the Sctottish Trophy and the Scottish/Italian Trophy.

Seeing as all these teams are in the top 5 of the league at the moment, and in the play-off race (well LEinster are sorted) with the last game to go, so we really need to spice things up?

I think the Ospreys win the Irish/Welsh trophy, they only lost to Ulster away, beat all the other provinces home and away this year... Us O's fans have to count our minor successes.

This may have given the Dragons and Connacht more incentive, they seem very competitive in the Derbies though not so much so in the league in general.

I personally think the Ospreys might have bright future and are getting on the right path, if they can avoid the French money taking to many of their Welsh players. I've heard from Welsh posters here that they have sold quite a bit of jerseys/merchandise in their short lifespan. So there's at least quite a bit of nominal support and therefore potential to increase attendances.

They've been surrounded by a bit of bad press and underperformed in recent years. But they do look to have the makings of a top class side. If they start playing well and have a good run in Europe next year then they could rise above the negativity around the regions and achieve something in the HC.

2ndtimeround wrote:
Most of the negativity seems to stem from the current situation at the Blues but I'm not even convinced that its really as bad as is been made out there as most of the players that are leaving are the wrong end of their careers for a Coach to be rebuilding a team with, and how many are actually geniunelly 1st class players? how many of the players that have left would have been good enough to play for Leinster, Munster or Ulster ? Only Gethin in my book who is 32 this year and is looking to build his pension before retiring.

I wouldn't say it's negativity.
It's bad in the sense that Cardiff Blues have been hemorrhaging vast amounts of cash because of the plans that in the end didn't go to plan (Thank the Lord).
It's extremely bad that X, X, X, and X and others have contrived and colluded. There is much bad feeling at the club for sure.
It's a bad sign when the DOR, Chief Exec, Financial Director, Sales/Marketing Director all leave within a matter of months of each other.
It's bad when attendances plummet and performances follow suit.
It's a bad sign when employees criticise their employer.
I could add more bad things, but most of all, it's very, very bad that they have never realised their full potential.

Saying that, it's very, very good that something may finally be stirring and i'm more hopeful now than I have been for many years.
Cardiff Blues may have a weaker squad next season, but that doesn't really concern me. The most important thing of all is where they are going.
If they return to the Arms Park next season there will be 3 of us who will be buying season tickets again and I will have to think of something else to moan about. The bogs would seem the most obvious place to start.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

I personally think the Ospreys might have bright future and are getting on the right path, if they can avoid the French money taking to many of their Welsh players. I've heard from Welsh posters here that they have sold quite a bit of jerseys/merchandise in their short lifespan. So there's at least quite a bit of nominal support and therefore potential to increase attendances.

They've been surrounded by a bit of bad press and underperformed in recent years. But they do look to have the makings of a top class side. If they start playing well and have a good run in Europe next year then they could rise above the negativity around the regions and achieve something in the HC.

The Ospreys have given good deals on jerseys in the past when purchasing a season ticket. The latest offer includes a £50 voucher for the club shop.
In my opinion the biggest problem for them is the Liberty as it's a soccer stadium. Rugby folk in general tend not to like these places. I've been there a couple of times and I like it as much as CCS ie not at all. It wouldn't surprise me if they shift a few miles east in the not too distant future.

As I said before in another thread, if you want to make the Pro 12 more competitive and interesting - for players as well as the fans - then league placings have to count for something.

1. Qualification for playoffs to win title
2. Money by ranking
3. Qualification seedings for European Cups
4. Bonus point matches on the shoulder weekends of H Cup and International comps in November and March

More derbies, fake cups, etc is just window dressing.

And if I could wave a magic wand, turn all the Welsh regions back into their original clubs. But that ain't going to happen.

The Pro 12 will get worse, not better, unless it does something. Edinburgh have learned the bad habit of snoozing through the season; next season it'll be Glasgow. And if Eddie O'Sullivan gets his hands on one of the Welsh regions.....

The Great Aukster wrote:

Good post 2tr ... you sure you're Welsh?!

It seems to me that the Welsh Premiership isn't seen as feeders to the regions by a lot of fans and some clubs resent producing players in say the Blues region only for them to represent "Cardiff" whom they see as a traditional enemy.

The term "feeder" is a classic misnomer in this instance and the "regions" (another massive misnomer with knobs on) can pick up players of all ages from anywhere on the globe.

Pot Hale wrote:
And if I could wave a magic wand, turn all the Welsh regions back into their original clubs. But that ain't going to happen.

Cardiff Blues are and always have been Cardiff RFC and those in charge can end the regional pretence any time they like. However, it wouldn't be politically correct to do so.

Pot Hale wrote:As I said before in another thread, if you want to make the Pro 12 more competitive and interesting - for players as well as the fans - then league placings have to count for something.

1. Qualification for playoffs to win title
2. Money by ranking
3. Qualification seedings for European Cups
4. Bonus point matches on the shoulder weekends of H Cup and International comps in November and March

More derbies, fake cups, etc is just window dressing.

And if I could wave a magic wand, turn all the Welsh regions back into their original clubs. But that ain't going to happen.

The Pro 12 will get worse, not better, unless it does something. Edinburgh have learned the bad habit of snoozing through the season; next season it'll be Glasgow. And if Eddie O'Sullivan gets his hands on one of the Welsh regions.....

Its getting better every season. Edinburgh slept through it but they were the only team who did that and thats why they're second last. Teams not trying their best happens in every sport btw.

Some French teams stop taking the HEC seriously once they know they're out. What does that say about the HEC?

Most of the French teams don't prioritise the HEC. Only the top few do (and then it's not at the expense of the T14). A few of the English clubs occasionally marginalise the HEC (but not to the same degree). What does that say about the HEC? That it's not the be all and end all for every team in it.

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:As I said before in another thread, if you want to make the Pro 12 more competitive and interesting - for players as well as the fans - then league placings have to count for something.

1. Qualification for playoffs to win title
2. Money by ranking
3. Qualification seedings for European Cups
4. Bonus point matches on the shoulder weekends of H Cup and International comps in November and March

More derbies, fake cups, etc is just window dressing.

And if I could wave a magic wand, turn all the Welsh regions back into their original clubs. But that ain't going to happen.

The Pro 12 will get worse, not better, unless it does something. Edinburgh have learned the bad habit of snoozing through the season; next season it'll be Glasgow. And if Eddie O'Sullivan gets his hands on one of the Welsh regions.....

Its getting better every season. Edinburgh slept through it but they were the only team who did that and thats why they're second last. Teams not trying their best happens in every sport btw.

Some French teams stop taking the HEC seriously once they know they're out. What does that say about the HEC?

By what metrics do you believe that the Pro 12 is getting better every season? Do you believe that Cardiff gave their all in the league this season? Scarlets? Even Connacht who had HC distractions (well they probably did given their parlous state). Did Aironi? One does have to wonder that if you had told the clubs in the Pro 12 in January that only the top 7 were going to qualify for HC , what difference that might have made to performances? Or that there was an incremental placing bonus rising from €250k starting at 7th in the league? Or that only the top 6 get into the Heineken Cup, the remainder into the Amlin? They'd still be playing European rugby, just not at the premium level.

Pot Hale wrote: And if Eddie O'Sullivan gets his hands on one of the Welsh regions.....

.......................em............................... they'll win a HC?

It's easy to say a side isn't prioritising one over another when the one isn't as successful a campaign as the other. But it is possible to do both - without the French big money. But that's all explained in another thread of course.

The sides competing for this year's HC were still fighting for this year's league right up until two weeks ago. They weren't having cups of tea and biscuits based on the premise that they didn't have to worry about bottom of the league so they just as well might camp there.

Maes - sorry, I just made an assumption on that one (and I guess it made an ass of me). But my point is still valid that the winners of all the trophies would be teams that are in the top 5 places in the league anyway.

SecretFly wrote:It's easy to say a side isn't prioritising one over another when the one isn't as successful a campaign as the other. But it is possible to do both - without the French big money. But that's all explained in another thread of course.

The sides competing for this year's HC were still fighting for this year's league right up until two weeks ago. They weren't having cups of tea and biscuits based on the premise that they didn't have to worry about bottom of the league so they just as well might camp there.

Also to add that it is stupid to say that Biarritiz were focusing on the HC/Amlin over the T14 as their results were rubbish. But once injuries got sorted out they improved in both.

Endinbrugh are a prime example of what happens if you don't take the Rabo serious and next year could be alot more behind if they do it again.

You win the Rabo and HC on your squad not your team, ask ulster why they got knocked out of both last year, it was because they only had a good team

Cardiff Dave.
My point about things not been as bad as is made out at the Blues is based on the fact that most of the players they are losing weren't quite cutting it so their leaving is just part of the rebuilding process, as for the financial doom n gloom the only ones that really know the truth are the guys in charge at the region.
As for the Stadium debacle I have to agree with you, if they still played at the Arms park I would probably have attended the Scarlets games there as its easy to get the train back and fore and still have a pint, thats not quite as simple out at CCC.

Pot Hale.
Not sure how many games youv'e been to this season or at what Region that would be but as someone who has attended every game bar 1 at PYS I can deffinately say the quality in the League has been much better this season compared to previous ones. The only thing spoiling the league at the moment is the inconsisstent quality of the officials, that seems to remain well below what I see from the odd Premiership game I watch. Less pedantic and free flowing Refereeing is what is needed even if it means not getting gifted a penalty in the closing stages against Munster.

2ndtimeround wrote: Pot Hale.
Not sure how many games youv'e been to this season or at what Region that would be but as someone who has attended every game bar 1 at PYS I can deffinately say the quality in the League has been much better this season compared to previous ones. The only thing spoiling the league at the moment is the inconsisstent quality of the officials, that seems to remain well below what I see from the odd Premiership game I watch. Less pedantic and free flowing Refereeing is what is needed even if it means not getting gifted a penalty in the closing stages against Munster.

Spot on

geoff998rugby wrote:

2ndtimeround wrote: Pot Hale.
Not sure how many games youv'e been to this season or at what Region that would be but as someone who has attended every game bar 1 at PYS I can deffinately say the quality in the League has been much better this season compared to previous ones. The only thing spoiling the league at the moment is the inconsisstent quality of the officials, that seems to remain well below what I see from the odd Premiership game I watch. Less pedantic and free flowing Refereeing is what is needed even if it means not getting gifted a penalty in the closing stages against Munster.

Spot on

I concur, what I would like to though, is nutral refs for games as it would negate any talk of biased reffing in the league.

They tried that but the Scottish could not provide enough refs of the required quality.

Hence both Welsh and Irish referees sometimes ref matches between Welsh and Irish teams.

Pot Hale wrote:By what metrics do you believe that the Pro 12 is getting better every season? Do you believe that Cardiff gave their all in the league this season? Scarlets? Even Connacht who had HC distractions (well they probably did given their parlous state). Did Aironi? One does have to wonder that if you had told the clubs in the Pro 12 in January that only the top 7 were going to qualify for HC , what difference that might have made to performances? Or that there was an incremental placing bonus rising from €250k starting at 7th in the league? Or that only the top 6 get into the Heineken Cup, the remainder into the Amlin? They'd still be playing European rugby, just not at the premium level.

I think that pretty much is then case, except for every position on the table.

geoff998rugby wrote:They tried that but the Scottish could not provide enough refs of the required quality.

Hence both Welsh and Irish referees sometimes ref matches between Welsh and Irish teams.

Surely they could have a look at some refs from other countries, Engish, French, or some SH ones. Just to fill the void until there is enough from the celtic/Italian nations.

Wayne Barnes might be available