Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland

First topic message reminder :

This is the fat mans track. I haven't watched much super 15 this year (Kids sports and trips away). I'm interested to know who you think will be selcted based on supe 15 form.

Here's the team from the WC final, with some comments:

15 Israel Dagg - Seems to be coming into form, huge depth at 15.
14 Cory Jane
13 Conrad Smith - Should be in if the play a big inside center. What happens if carter starts at 12.
12 Ma'a Nonu - questionmarks about form, SBW and may be Carter looming on the horison
11 Richard Kahui _ Playing centre I think
10 Aaron Cruden - there because Carter was injured. I'm not sure he'll make the squad
9 Piri Weepu - Out of form (I'm guessing he was only in the starting line up as a kicker)
1 Tony Woodcock - Injured but should be right
2 Keven Mealamu - Out of form, so who are the hookers.
3 Owen Franks - In I'm guessing
4 Brad Thorn - Gone into semi retirement, wont be back .
5 Sam Whitelock - (probably a certainy)
6 Jerome Kaino - gone
7 Richie McCaw (c) - Just returning from injury - who's the back up
8 Kieran Read - (He's in)
Replacements
16 Andrew Hore
17 Ben Franks
18 Ali Williams - Out of form
19 Adam Thomson
20 Andy Ellis
21 Stephen Donald Gone to Overseas
22 Sonny Bill Williams

Like I said I haven't watched much, so I may be off the mark a bit.

Yeah they may not have a lot of depth but the ones they have are fantastic.

AB training squad (35) gets named tomorrow.

Newbies could be:
-A Smith and Perenara as no. 2 and 3 halfbacks
-Andre Taylor as backup to Dagg
-Savea as a late bolter so impressive was that try though Masaga deserves a chance too I think.
-Rettilick depending on how he goes tonight.
-Todd or Latimer (recall)
- Eaton (recall). Hoeata should be there anyway.
- Maybe Tom Taylor purely as a back up kicker.
hmmm...just names to throw around at the moment...

Good call with Savea as a 'work in progress' type inclusion. That try he scored last night, wow! Power off the mark, just blew through, shades of Lomu in his size/style/speed, although not fair to compare. He's done well this year so far, seems to look for work and hitting it up more. Wouldn't want to tackle him in full flight that's for sure. Does he have any major weaknesses?

At the half way stage of Super15, 3 Australian,3 South African and 4 New Zealand sides are in play-off positions.SA teams all have agame in Hand,S15 does`nt usually translate into Test form.BUT it does give some sort of guideline,like the 4Ns Home advantage is crucial.Few win away from home[SUPER Series],The Chiefs/Crusaders would make a perfect test trial this year
for 4Ns selection.As a fan I want to see the AB`s win every match,BUT IF resting Carter and McCaw means a better team long term.REST THEM,under Sir Graham Henry`s reign one of the few areas of complaint was the lack of development.To 7,9.10,too many utility Loose Forwards as opposed to specialists. Long term Hooker,Prop who can play either Head and a grunt Lock on the linesof Thorn or Keith Robinson.BUT the Lock MUST be a lineout option unlike Thorn for most of his career.Non jumping Lock was fashionable in the 1970`s like Hamish McDonald BUT his partner Peter Whiting was the best aerial performer in the World.Hoerta looks promising but select and play him at Lock not as a 6.Savea is in the same boat,Hosea Gear when he outsted "THE ROCK"
was on fire a couple of years ago.BUT tho he has a RWC winner medal for holding a tackle bag is not in favour.The utility obsession with the AB wings SBW,Kahui or Dagg are more likely.Is Andre Taylor a decent Goal kicker? if so him at FB ,Dagg on the wing.

Havnt seen A Taylor kick at all. Decent from in hand but wont be selected ad a kicker.
Cruden is now probably our best kicker and better than dc at this level for some time now he has adfed length and had confidence.

Kahui I mentioned being too brittle earlier looks to have dislocated his shoulder from last nights match..a real thriller.

Messams gotta be in there somewhere as well. Chiefs and crusaders have hiccupped against oz sides this round but i wouldnt take too much from that. Saders will bounce back and chiefs are probably clear as nzs conference winners.

I just hope for once hansen can get an ab side gelling together quickly against ireland rather than taking baby steps the way we seem to every year at the start.

Crusaders have a bye plus 5 out of final 6 games at Home be surprised if they lose there home games.Problem is now Nz sides wil be spoiling Nz sides now.
Kahui finished for rest of year,do Chiefs have a decent replacement?At least thats one problem solved Conrad Smith at 13 if there was ever any doubt.Ellis is likely to be the starting Scrum Half,Cowan is the only Scrum Half who has started on a regular basis.Weepu and Ellis usually coming of the Bench.

Training Squad.
Charlie Faumuina
Maa Nonu
Kevan Mealamu
Piri Weepu
Ali Williams
Tony Woodcock
Sam Cane
Richard Kahui
Tawera Kerr-Barlow
Bodi Retallick
Ben Tamieafuna
SBW
Beauden Barrett
Wyatt Crockett
Israel Dagg
Andy Ellis
Ben &Owen Franks
R.McCaw
Keiran Read
Luke Romano
Tamati Ellison
AAron Smith
Ben Smith
Adam Thomson
Luke & sam Whitelock
Brad Shields
Julian Savea
Corey Jane
Dan Carter.

Surprise inclusions to me are:
Ben Tamieafuna (thought he would committ to Tonga and very young)
Kerr-Barlow over T.J.Perenara.
Sam Cane over karl lowe.
Charlie faumuina,hasnt done a great deal at all.
Brad Shields didnt see that one coming.

Ommissions:
Zac Guilford
Hosea Gear
Jimmy Cowan
Corey Flynn
Liam Massem
Neither taylor.

Thought Hosea Gear would have been there-seems Hansen is along the same lines as Henry in not liking him. With Kahui injured I can see Savea playing now.

Disney I agree, and Savea is showing some real form.

I missed Victor Vito and Andrew Hore. its up on the Herald web site.

Aaron Cruden was the other one.

What do people think about Sam Cane? Is he a future All Black star?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/6913879/Lucky-Lukes-in-All-Blacks-training-squad

Heard Hansen on radio sport, said Savea was selected over gear because he is one for the future. Is Gear off next year? Pretty much indicated he was last year didnt he. Stoked Kerr-Barlow is there, and Cane/Shields. Won't see game time, but get them pumped up. Nzherald mention tamiefuna as backup hooker, is that right? He's 134 kg, big boy!

Love the fact that theres so many new ones. A Taylor and fruean i would have thought would benefit. Experience going against them.

All up...exciting and a breath of fresh air..

Although Cane played in last years NZ under 20 team,however its hard to rate him at this time over some af the hardmen loosies like Messam and Lowe.and then he goes and takes Luke Whitelock as well???
I have some trouble recognising what Cane offers as a no 7.that Matt todd doesnt offer,they are both too small,if this series was against South Africa or England I doubt if Cane would be there.

Taylorman
Im happy with Tamati Ellison getting the nod over Fruen.

Far too much emphasis is put on size these days. Players at 1.89m/104kg and 1.84m/104kg are too small for 7??

Hoeata and Todd not picked also surprises me. Glad Kerr-Barlow and Smith both get time with the AB coaches. Weepu should be taken aside with Tietjens for a couple weeks so he can puke out those pies over a 3000km run.

FFS Kahui injured again ahhh! So much class there gone. Freuan lovers could see this as a foot in the door. Ali Williams isn't inspiring me. Could be last chance saloon with a lot of these players and possibly the start of the transition.

We need some mongrel and some big hitters to stop O'Brien Healy and Ferris. Also Sexton is physical and very good at holding up players to initiate the choke tackle-so we also need someone big at 12 to run at D'Arcy whom I don't rate as Cruden won't take it up as much if he plays. I think Ireland can win the collisions here and make life very difficult if we don't manage to play expansively.

Goalkicking should be a worry. Meaning Weepu shouldn't make the side-so we need to find alternatives and that worries me. Remember Dagg has an injury from kicking too so options can be thin on the ground.

There are a lot of fresh faces and I'm excited like Taylorman. The trick is how they get introduced to Test rugby.

From what I read a wider training squad will be used at a later date,notable omissions Hika Elliot,MattTodd.AndreTaylor,too soon for Tom Taylor,Hosea Gear,Zac Guilford[perhaps his fall from grace is permanent?]Hoerta.

Yeah just a bit too soon for either Taylor.
Fruean might be one of those Stanley, Bunce types who just develops the broader more cunning side of the centre roll it takes some years to get. Understandable hes been left and probably based on the same reasons as GH left him out. Kahui out might let him in but somehow I doubt it.

I like Kerr Barlow of all 3 new halves (Smith and Perenara) as hes got that x factor. Will have a crack in the Genia fashion (wasnt that run fantastic- same tracks as against us last year!) out of nowhere.

Guilfords a hard worker who will keep banging on the AB door until he's 99. He reacts to selections like this by working even harder so one day he'll be too good to leave out every now and then, especially if injuries hit.

Hosea Gear will be off I reckon. Hasnt done a lot and needs to work harder to match whats on offer.

A natural 7? Perhaps one of the newbies but we are short on a genuine 7, goalkicker though Barrett's in there, one for the future.

Having thought about it a bit more. Hansens message to all is:

- You young kids, think about getting ready for a career with the AB's
- You regulars, we need you to continue the good work you've done so far, and help me with bringing these new guys into the team.
- Like Oz, Wales and England the future is with our youth, so get them in now so you don't get left behind.

Its also telling the regulars that time for change is now, you can no longer rely on your places as you used to. Slip up, and there will be plenty to line up and take your place.

The good news story is that there will be plenty of young guys around the country, their friends family etc celebrating a fair bit as I think the number of newbies named- even though its only a training squad, is unprecedented for the AB's- many world cup under 20 performers finally getting their turn.

Hansens already made his intentions clear.

This is a new era, the Hansen era.

Good luck to him...

And (Biltong) it will be interesting to see what Meyers response will be given SA has already left it 2-3 years late.

I like the team. Yes there's some names that should not and will not be in the first 22 for the first game of the season, but for an initial squad it's good. They're bringing in youngsters into the set up. Even if they don't make the final squad at least they'll have had this precious experience. And including the out of formers may get them back playing some good footy in time for the test matches.

Only disappoint is Hika Elliot's ommision

Taylorman wrote:Having thought about it a bit more. Hansens message to all is:

- You young kids, think about getting ready for a career with the AB's
- You regulars, we need you to continue the good work you've done so far, and help me with bringing these new guys into the team.
- Like Oz, Wales and England the future is with our youth, so get them in now so you don't get left behind.

Its also telling the regulars that time for change is now, you can no longer rely on your places as you used to. Slip up, and there will be plenty to line up and take your place.

The good news story is that there will be plenty of young guys around the country, their friends family etc celebrating a fair bit as I think the number of newbies named- even though its only a training squad, is unprecedented for the AB's- many world cup under 20 performers finally getting their turn.

Hansens already made his intentions clear.

This is a new era, the Hansen era.

Good luck to him...

And (Biltong) it will be interesting to see what Meyers response will be given SA has already left it 2-3 years late.

I like Hansen's mentality, Meyer has given mixed signals thus far, he first said due to the little time for preparation he is going to look at experience to be key. After his 3 training camps his attitude has changed a little as he said the enthusiasm of the young guns impressed him. His intention was to bring back Victor Matfield and Fourie du Preez who seems both to have declined the offer.

This does present him with the opportunity to go the ruote most South africans want him to go, clean ship and get rid of the old guard, even if he does follow that principal there will still be enough experienced players who are only in their mid twenties to steady the ship. My only concern is Morne Steyn.

We all know he is a great kicker to goal, and even though he markedly tries to get his backline going and had a few deft little touches with ball in hand this Super XV, his overall mentaility is still to kick possession away at crucial times.

When you look at the match vs the Rebels, it was clear he didn't have the mentality of confidence to keep ball in hand, the same thing happened against the brumbies.

The problem with this is he loses his accuracy of execution late in the game, and the Brumbies inspecific were given ample opportunity to run back at the Bulls scroing 2 tries in the last 10 minutes.

During the 2010 season the same scenario presented itself to the All Blacks and the Wallabies, where in both cases we lost tests already won. We cannot continue having a 10 that cannot make the correct decisions, not execute the plan and doesn't have the mentality or confidence to play the game.

I like the fact its full of new players. I dont know the correct mix yet and laurie agree Ellison has a lot more going for him than fruean.

I like anyone who good apply a good spot tackle and ellison did a couple of good hits last night. He could force his way in early and push nonu or sbw sideways. Smith I think wont be going anywhere soon.

Theyve gone for young locks and id be happy to see the back of ali. Hasnt been at his best for years. In there as a babysitter only. Tired of his emotional appeals to stick with him only to fail again and again.

Weepu will be embarrassed in the sessions with the younger more fit 9s. Hes been told to puke the pies disney.

I would be interested to know from knowledgable posters from new zeealnd what you think about no Andre Taylor? I know that he had a bad match up against Israel Dagg but in my mind he has been the form broken play striker runner at the moment. And maybe he just try a bit too hard in that game by over self consciousness and might have learned a lot about relax in that experience. My mind is Andy Ellis is very lucky man because he not really ever been international standard.

Well cant agree ellis is not international standard. Are all the NH halves all better than Ellis as i agree oz and SA have strong halves. I doubt that very much. Hes just average for a team ranked so high i would suggest.
Taylor is too green thats all. Hes come through the ranks to his first sxv year and will have his day. Just maybe not this year. Ben Smith probably edged him as he fits hansens gameplan a little better...whatever that is.

Can you field a U16 side for the tour, Ireland may get to win one then

Agree biltong. Steyn is the last of the proverbial security blankets SA and Meyer need to be rid of. I can see why its difficult as theres an area where steyn reigns supreme. Goal kicking. But hes got his records largely because everyones scared to run their team onto the field without him. If this... 'Just for the next test' syndrome kicks in against England it will remain while the wins come.

Amazing how a coach new to the team cant shed players yet hansen spoke freely today that hes let everyone know those nearing or on 30 plus need to be replaced next four years and this is the start of that process.

Clear and simple. And he was part of that environment that brought huge success.

Practical thinking has to give way to ego and insecurity. Meyer would be forgiven if he lost a match or two while trying to forge a new era of SA rugby.

This squad is for Ireland NOT the 4Ns,the young guns are there for the atmosphere for want of a better word.Andy Ellis NOT an International Scrum half?He has worked harder on his game than any other starting AB 9,how many games has he.Or Piri Weepu for that matter started,as opposed to bench warming.Since Byron Kelleher went North,Jimmy Cowan has been first choice,Bredan Leonard has had a list of injuries.Not achieved his 2007 RWC level,Alby Mathewson had a couple of dabs thats it.Crusaders back up last year elected for his Native Country,BIG All Blacks loss.
AllBlacks scrumhalves have been of the nineth Forward variety mostly,Vince Bevan,Kevin Briscoe,Justin Marshall,Byron Kelleher,Jimmy Cowan.The sniping runner type only really Loveridge,Going,Bachop from memory.
I expect nearly the RWC side or as near as possible starting,Elis and Crudon starting.Carter and Weepu on the bench fitness levels of thesze 2 in doubt that way a goal kicker on the field all the time.

I think the advantage Hansen has with the upcoming tour of Ireland is that he can be more confident than let's say Meyer. His team has been superior to Irleand for so long that just the mental edge the all Blacks take into this series alone makes it a lot easier for him to experiment without considering losing a test.

Meyer on the other hand knows springbok confidence is down, and hence might not want to experiment, which in my view is nonsense.

Anotherworldofpain

I am from New Zealand,but as to whether I'm knowledgable could be debatable.
But one day Andre Taylor will be an All Black (as will T.J.Perenara).
Taylor would have to be one of the fastest guys I've seen over 20 metres from dead stop.

My mind is that pace like his is asset that makes him so useful. The problem with sometimes wait a bit to get less green coloring is that the pace drop quickly with age and maybe not such potent weapon anymore.

I suppose is balancing game and combinator for coach and selector with more wisdom than mine.

Could the Gear family be the most harshly spurned name in AB rugby?

Have replacements for Faumuina and Kahui been announced?

I feel for Hika Eliot in particular. Maybe two hookers is enough. Still in a squad of 35 you'd think there'd be more. Good to see a few young halfbacks and locks in there. Not sure about the backrow cover.

Overall seems to be a nice blend of youth and experience. When test teams are announced though, I have a feeling we might be debating a few positions more intensely but on the whole it's a sit back and wait feeling for me. Encouraging signs but one or two problem areas that might need addressing. Namely lock and backrow cover but one or two others like left wing and props. We're an impossible bunch to please!

If there are close calls them maybe he needs more than two players per position?

Yup Kia Henry didn't like either.

I think this is also a learning from past mistakes too. Gary Whetton's 91 side was too long in the tooth and that coupled with Hart and Wyllie trying to coach together spelt the death knell for the champions. That and ****ing Ridge not talking to John Gallagher, Michael Jones not there, blah.

Maybe they're waiting for Taylor's second season. Some players get figured out early and become ineffective very quickly. If he's showing the same form next year then he may well get picked. Dagg however has done nothing wrong and was brilliant last year. I'll be cheesed off if he isn't the 15.

I like Ellis in comparison to Cowan and Weepu at present. But I hope Carter is fit as we can put Smith inside him.

Eirebilly mate you'll give us a helluva go if Hansen stuffs the selections up.

I'd like to see Dagg, Jane, Smith, SBW, Savea, Carter, Smith, Read, McCaw, Thomson, Whitelock, Retallick, Owen Franks, Mealamu, Woodcock. Having said that I'd love a more physical 6 and I'd like to have seen Hoeata at 4.

Disney

That ' 91 team might not have had Michael Jones ...But Harty did get Mark Carter in there,he he.

Laurie us Wellingtonians had Mannix, Canterbury had Philpott and Carter was your equivalent.

Disney

There was a story back in 1991 that Grizz and Harty couldnt agree on who should play openside,,Wyllie wanted Kronfield and Harty being a true Aucklander wanted Carter, anyway things got a bit out of hand when Hart didnt get his way,so he hid the bag of practise balls.

Grizz wasnt happy.

disneychilly wrote:Yup Kia Henry didn't like either.

I think this is also a learning from past mistakes too. Gary Whetton's 91 side was too long in the tooth and that coupled with Hart and Wyllie trying to coach together spelt the death knell for the champions. That and ****ing Ridge not talking to John Gallagher, Michael Jones not there, blah.

Maybe they're waiting for Taylor's second season. Some players get figured out early and become ineffective very quickly. If he's showing the same form next year then he may well get picked. Dagg however has done nothing wrong and was brilliant last year. I'll be cheesed off if he isn't the 15.

I like Ellis in comparison to Cowan and Weepu at present. But I hope Carter is fit as we can put Smith inside him.

Eirebilly mate you'll give us a helluva go if Hansen stuffs the selections up.

I'd like to see Dagg, Jane, Smith, SBW, Savea, Carter, Smith, Read, McCaw, Thomson, Whitelock, Retallick, Owen Franks, Mealamu, Woodcock. Having said that I'd love a more physical 6 and I'd like to have seen Hoeata at 4.

Carter = still not recover from the injury
Read = Back injury and is not likely he play against Ireland
McCaw = Not 100% fitness and even as that he doesn't have extra edge any more
Thompson = in my mind is just utility back row, he is not hard man 6 and not fetcher and not carrier.

Unfortunate this combinator will be too conservatives and Williams will me match with Whitelock and Retallick to give experiences but he is not convincable now.

I think all blacks will get vulnerable to Ireland this time and take some while to settle the right combinator.

Whitelock has been our best lock for a couple of years now (yes including Thorne) so their is space for Retallick to step in as the new boy.
I agree World - our loose forward mix is looking a bit vulnerable with Read out and McCaw getting old. I think replacing McCaw is our number 1 problem and we need to be giving Cane or Todd some game time soon.

Whitelock might be more technical lock but Thorne also bring the venomous and make a combinator of intimidation with Jerome Kaino who is the biggest loss to all blacks since micheal jones went to church on the sunday (but will make fear like godzilla in japan). My mind is all blacks will be soft around the ruck and exploited at the impact space and making more pressure on half back and fly have. Dangerous for all black because 9s not in good form and 10 is doubting at the moment by transition and injury and form.

I spending a lot of time in new zealand when I was student so I am sad about it but I predict all blacks come second last in rugby championship and will loose a game to ireland in close series.

No indication Read is out for any length of time,Thomson adds a Lineout option at 6.HE is a 6 and pre -injury WAS the starting AB 6,McCaw is still THE best 7 in World Rugby.BECAUSE he adapts his game to the new interpratations of Refs
each year.IF he was past it playing on one leg in the RWC there must be a hell of a lot of better 7`s in World Rugby.Face it he was better on one leg than nearly all the others on 2.May drop a Ireland test but unlikely only 33 losses at home since 1903 .Get the Team right and they will regain the 4Ns especially as the last legs are at home.14 or 15 tests to be played this year get down to the bookies place a bet on your predictions you`ll get tremendous odds.Expect them to lose the routine 2 matches probably when it does`nt matter.