Rabo playoffs - unwinding my Stag-inspired persuasion

I used to be against all play-off systems until R-S persuaded me that as a franchise system without relegation threats it would be appropriate. It reduces dead rubbers.

So here's the last week's fixtures:
Saturday, 5 May 2012
Aironi v Ospreys, 19:30
Edinburgh v Treviso, 19:30
Glasgow v Connacht, 19:30
Munster v Ulster, 19:30
Newport-Gwent D'gons v Leinster, 19:30
Scarlets v Cardiff Blues, 19:30

And Table
1 Leinster 21 17 1 3 546 308 7 77
2 Ospreys 21 15 1 5 473 326 5 67
3 Munster 21 13 1 7 453 359 8 62
4 Glasgow 21 12 4 5 421 318 5 61
5 Scarlets 21 11 2 8 417 353 9 57
6 Ulster 21 12 0 9 466 388 8 56
7 Cardiff Blues 21 10 0 11 426 431 10 50
8 Connacht 21 7 1 13 318 409 7 37
9 Treviso 21 7 0 14 398 514 8 36
10 Newport-Gwent D'gons 21 7 1 13 352 452 5 35
11 Edinburgh 21 5 1 15 410 567 5 27
12 Aironi 21 4 0 17 278 533 5 21

Indeed the Rabo needs something.
And I'll concede that a playoff might be best.
But I spy loads of dead rubbers. And one dead team.

But I don't predict a mass of interest in the 'as it stands' announcements as Saturday evening progresses.

Three games zap and three games zip.

More than harsh I know. But fair.

Looking at the Aviva last games arguably there's 3 dead rubbers out of the 6 games there as well

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Looking at the Aviva last games arguably there's 3 dead rubbers out of the 6 games there as well

??

Tigers v Bath (top 2)
Quins v Sale (top 2)
Sarries v Chiefs (top 2 and playoffs)
Saints v Worcester (playoffs)
Wasps v Newcastle (relatgation)
Irish v Gloucester (dead rubber)

Aironi v Ospreys, 19:30 (dead rubber)
Edinburgh v Treviso, 19:30 (dead rubber)
Glasgow v Connacht, 19:30 (playoffs)
Munster v Ulster, 19:30 (playoffs)
Newport-Gwent D'gons v Leinster, 19:30 (dead rubber)
Scarlets v Cardiff Blues, 19:30 (playoffs)

A couple of dead rubbers is a worthy price to pay for the Rabo having two HC finalists.

Artful Dodger don't you mean Ireland has two HC finalists?

Could the rest of the Pro12 stop hanging on the coat tails of the Irish?

I accual think that they should bring in a Plate playoff for 5-8 aswell

Beshoked, what are you bumping your gums about. Im pretty sure artfuldodger is Irish so how could he possibly hang on his own coat tail. If anybody needed to hang on coat tails it would be your lot as you have achieved nothing this year!!

Brendan wrote:I accual think that they should bring in a Plate playoff for 5-8 aswell

There's too many games as it is, plate playoffs just more dead rubbers as far as I can see.

The way its worked itself out, the playoffs are pretty much done and dusted going into the final weekend. Sometimes you have six or seven teams going into it with a chance and sometimes you don't.

Will take a major upset for anything to really change in the Top 4. Ulster are now going down to Munster with both eyes firmly on the HC Final so will rest a number of players, Leinster and Ospreys pretty much have the home draws sown up and Glasgow and Munster only need losing bonus points at home to secure their places.

There's not much chance of some last-day drama; not so much because of the format as the combination of the fixture list and just how things have gone in the last few weeks. Last season was great for drama on the last day. Just how it goes I suppose.

The Aironi game is not a dead rubber because Ospreys need a point to guarantee a home SF.

geoff998rugby wrote:The Aironi game is not a dead rubber because Ospreys need a point to guarantee a home SF.

Not so, if Munster tie with them on points then O's still finish on second, they've won more games. Here's the tiebreaker conditions if both teams finish on the same points:


• number of matches won;
• the difference between points for and points against;
• the number of tries scored;
• the most points scored;
• the difference between tries for and tries against;
• the fewest number of red cards received;
• the fewest number of yellow cards received.

I originally bought in to the relevance of playoffs in a franchise system was valid (well actually I couldn't have given a flying frig what they do).

But if the basic principle was changed from guaranteed national allocations to Ireland 2, Wales 2, Scotland 1, Italy 1 with the remaining four places up for grabs:
a. would there be so many dead rubbers
and
b. would the regular season not be put into sharper focus?

Just a thought.

note: that would involve Edinburgh (this year's HEC semi-finalists) not even qualifying for next year.

That fact alone should pull the intensity of the bread and butter domestic league into sharper focus.

Mickado wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The Aironi game is not a dead rubber because Ospreys need a point to guarantee a home SF.

Not so, if Munster tie with them on points then O's still finish on second, they've won more games. Here's the tiebreaker conditions if both teams finish on the same points:


• number of matches won;
• the difference between points for and points against;
• the number of tries scored;
• the most points scored;
• the difference between tries for and tries against;
• the fewest number of red cards received;
• the fewest number of yellow cards received.

And if all are tied a coin toss? (I think that is the final deciding step in the HEC).

Portnoy wrote:I originally bought in to the relevance of playoffs in a franchise system was valid (well actually I couldn't have given a flying frig what they do).

But if the basic principle was changed from guaranteed national allocations to Ireland 2, Wales 2, Scotland 1, Italy 1 with the remaining four places up for grabs:
a. would there be so many dead rubbers
and
b. would the regular season not be put into sharper focus?

Just a thought.

The problem with Ireland 2 and Wales 2 is that England and France would still have 6 each.

Now given that English clubs (not their league!) - specifically English clubs have won the HC six times, French teams have won it five times and Irish teams are about to have won it six times - that to me sounds like penalising Irish sides for being as successful in the competition as the English and French sides have been.

That doesn't wash with me for two reasons -

1. It simply isn't fair. One country's potential involvement decreases by a third, whilst other country's national allocations are left alone.
2. My allegiance is not to the league, it's to the Irish sides in it. Just as I'm sure all English people regard English club involvement in HC with pride and yawn when they see Welsh sides there. So let's not pretend the Irish will be happy to relinquish their quota for the good of Scottish, Welsh or Italian sides. It doesn't work like that in England and it doesn't work like that in Ireland.

So...if there was to be changes in Pro12 that might unbalance HC quotas (I'm more than willing to accept the negotiation) then English and French clubs would have to be involved in those negotiations - then too, the negotiations would have to include what numbers English and French sides would have by right rather than competing for. Many of us here think six is too many a guaranteed national allocation.

portnoy you are such a wum.

all the condesending comments you are making just make you look a little pathetic

SecretFly wrote:

So...if there was to be changes in Pro12 that might unbalance HC quotas (I'm more than willing to accept the negotiation) then English and French clubs would have to be involved in those negotiations - then too, the negotiations would have to include what numbers English and French sides would have by right rather than competing for. Many of us here think six is too many a guaranteed national allocation.

Agreed.

Portnoy what exactly do you mean by your "Stag-inspired persuasion"

Rava wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

So...if there was to be changes in Pro12 that might unbalance HC quotas (I'm more than willing to accept the negotiation) then English and French clubs would have to be involved in those negotiations - then too, the negotiations would have to include what numbers English and French sides would have by right rather than competing for. Many of us here think six is too many a guaranteed national allocation.

Agreed.

If I understood properly, the Portnoy proposal would be to allocate differently the HC slots within the pro 12 countries so how come it would impact the other unions that are not even vaguely involved in the pro 12???

at the end of the day, this is a all a bit pointless , all countries decide on an independent manner how they qualify their teams to the HC and the pro12 have no say in that.

fyi , 6 out of 14 is 42.8% while 3 out 4 is 75% so having the Irish repesentation potentially reduced would be mathematically fair. now in terms of quality offered, I would of course agree that all 3 provinces deserve to be playing HC rugby.
nonetheless this is irrelevant till we actually reduce the total number of teams involved in the HC and AC (or scrap the latter) in order to have a true elite competition.

whocares wrote:

Rava wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

So...if there was to be changes in Pro12 that might unbalance HC quotas (I'm more than willing to accept the negotiation) then English and French clubs would have to be involved in those negotiations - then too, the negotiations would have to include what numbers English and French sides would have by right rather than competing for. Many of us here think six is too many a guaranteed national allocation.

Agreed.

If I understood properly, the Portnoy proposal would be to allocate differently the HC slots within the pro 12 countries so how come it would impact the other unions that are not even vaguely involved in the pro 12???

at the end of the day, this is a all a bit pointless , all countries decide on an independent manner how they qualify their teams to the HC and the pro12 have no say in that.

fyi , 6 out of 14 is 42.8% while 3 out 4 is 75% so having the Irish repesentation potentially reduced would be mathematically fair. now in terms of quality offered, I would of course agree that all 3 provinces deserve to be playing HC rugby.
nonetheless this is irrelevant till we actually reduce the total number of teams involved in the HC and AC (or scrap the latter) in order to have a true elite competition.

It's all a bit pointless until it isn't and you feel the need to comment I know the feeling whocares - I know the feeling.

And it's always of outside observers interest to tap into what Pro12 are doing to make themselves more 'competitive' but when the converstion slides over to AP and Top 14, then the link between Pro12 and those Leagues becomes irrelevent in a 'mind your own business' kind of a way.

Meanwhile, 5 wins from 14 appearances in a final is what percentage and 6 wins from 9 appearances is what percentage. I'd say keep in the sides that have a bigger win percentage;)

red_stag wrote:Portnoy what exactly do you mean by your "Stag-inspired persuasion"

I'm generally against any form of playoffs system Stag. But you persuaded me of the efficacy of one in a franchised league in order to reduce the number of dead rubbers at the fag end.

But it now appears to me that it's not the lack of relegation that makes the league potentially uninteresting but the share of the spoils.

1 Leinster 21 17 1 3 546 308 7 77
2 Ospreys 21 15 1 5 473 326 5 67
3 Munster 21 13 1 7 453 359 8 62
4 Glasgow 21 12 4 5 421 318 5 61
5 Scarlets 21 11 2 8 417 353 9 57
6 Ulster 21 12 0 9 466 388 8 56
7 Cardiff Blues 21 10 0 11 426 431 10 50
8 Connacht 21 7 1 13 318 409 7 37
9 Treviso 21 7 0 14 398 514 8 36
10 Newport-Gwent D'gons 21 7 1 13 352 452 5 35
11 Edinburgh 21 5 1 15 410 567 5 27
12 Aironi 21 4 0 17 278 533 5 21

If National Euro qualifications from the Rabo were reduced from existing by one slot and the remainder allocated by performance then you'd have a truly exciting league.

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote:Portnoy what exactly do you mean by your "Stag-inspired persuasion"

I'm generally against any form of playoffs system Stag. But you persuaded me of the efficacy of one in a franchised league in order to reduce the number of dead rubbers at the fag end.

But it now appears to me that it's not the lack of relegation that makes the league potentially uninteresting but the share of the spoils.

1 Leinster 21 17 1 3 546 308 7 77
2 Ospreys 21 15 1 5 473 326 5 67
3 Munster 21 13 1 7 453 359 8 62
4 Glasgow 21 12 4 5 421 318 5 61
5 Scarlets 21 11 2 8 417 353 9 57
6 Ulster 21 12 0 9 466 388 8 56
7 Cardiff Blues 21 10 0 11 426 431 10 50
8 Connacht 21 7 1 13 318 409 7 37
9 Treviso 21 7 0 14 398 514 8 36
10 Newport-Gwent D'gons 21 7 1 13 352 452 5 35
11 Edinburgh 21 5 1 15 410 567 5 27
12 Aironi 21 4 0 17 278 533 5 21

If National Euro qualifications from the Rabo were reduced from existing by one slot and the remainder allocated by performance then you'd have a truly exciting league.

Thank you I think,