England- Summer Tour Squad Named

First topic message reminder :

Lancaster's named the 42-man squad.

Shame not to see May in there, and for me, Monye is an odd inclusion. Good to see Kitchener get a chance, though I would rather have had Garvey in his place to be honest.

Here's the full squad:

Forwards (23)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Otago Highlanders)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (19)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Delon Armitage wouldn't be first choice in any position, probably not even second. Danny Care will be fighting for the starting 9 shirt. Armitage's discipline issues have been on-field as well as off-field so this may concern Lancaster. The off-field stuff isn't really for any of us to judge but on the pitch Danny Care has been an exceptional leader for Harlequins over the last couple of years, while Armitage has been binned and suspended on a number of occasions. Armitage is also moving to France on a relatively long-term deal, effectively signalling his lack of desire to play for England. The 2 situations are hardly comparable.

The trouble with round Armitage is that he won't be available for most of the tour

Englands pack has the potential to be very good indeed.

The front row, particularly the props (and Stevens), are young, powerful and technically proficient.

The back row offers a lot of physicallity and work rate both in going forward and in defence . While Dowson, Johnson and Waldrom aren't people first choices I can see why they've been selected given the injuries and Armitages position of playing abroad. I think having Haskell and Johnson playing at 6 will remind most of the benefits of having a proper blindside on the field and should allow for a more balanced backrow unit.

Its in the second row where I think Lancaster has missed a trick. Garvey and Attwood could've added a lot of grunt and size up in the engine room to compliment the set piece ability of Robson and Parling, especially with Lawes out. I can see the reason for Launchbury and, to a degree, Kitchener to get them blooded, although how you warrant selection when your not playing club rugby is a question that needs answering. What I can't see is what Palmer and Botha bring to that party that Attwood and Garvey don't other than experience.

In my mind this is a missed opportunity to create a potentially very good England pack.

The front row, particularly the props (and Stevens), are young, powerful and technically proficient

Stevens will get taken apart by even the most average Bok international loosehead. He is having a poor season and is next to useless in the scrum.

What I can't see is what Palmer and Botha bring to that party that Attwood and Garvey don't other than experience.

There's got to be a slight concern we're going to SA a tad light in the second row, that could go badly. At least with all these specialist lineout operators we'll give the Boks a good go in the lineout.

The trouble with round Armitage is that he won't be available for most of the tour

Doesn't that depend on how long Toulon are in the playoffs and that would only mean he missed the first test.

Sorry meant apart from Stevens, not including. Stevens is anything but young, powerful and technically proficient.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

There's got to be a slight concern we're going to SA a tad light in the second row, that could go badly. At least with all these specialist lineout operators we'll give the Boks a good go in the lineout.

I was actually thinking the lineout might be an issue. This was my logic...

We are missing Croft, Wood and Lawes from the first choice pack, the 3 best lineout forwards. The likely starting back row options will not offer much in the lineout. Haskell and Robshaw can do a job at the tail on the odd set move, but that's about it. Parling and Botha looks likely to be the second row pairing. Parling has done well running Leicester's lineout but he has always had Croft to rely on. Botha is a solid front ball option but no better than any of a number of guys SA could play. Borthwick and Joubert are Sarries top lineout men.

Of the other options in the squad: Robson is good in this area for Quins but is quite short for an international lock and has no international experience, Palmer and Kitchener are in a similar boat to Botha in terms of the lineout - it is not what he is picked for, Launchbury is a dynamic young athlete but is unlikely to feature in the tests.

Palmer and Kitchener are in a similar boat to Botha in terms of the lineout - it is not what he is picked for

Nope, Kitchener is Parling's lineout understudy at Tigers. He called the lineouts in the LV Cup campaign and for the A Team this season. He also did it somewhat tentatively for the first team at the start of the season but made a hash of it as he struggled to get his head around Tigers famously complicated system. Kitchener is being lined up as the long term replacement to Parling, he even has a similar playing style in the loose.

Garvey is a pretty terrible omission. Overall, it's not bad, not too many complaints.

But i can't see how Garvey is not on Lancaster's radar, must be something else to this?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Palmer and Kitchener are in a similar boat to Botha in terms of the lineout - it is not what he is picked for

Nope, Kitchener is Parling's lineout understudy at Tigers. He called the lineouts in the LV Cup campaign and for the A Team this season. He also did it somewhat tentatively for the first team at the start of the season but made a hash of it as he struggled to get his head around Tigers famously complicated system. Kitchener is being lined up as the long term replacement to Parling, he even has a similar playing style in the loose.

I see, that makes more sense then Sam. In games which I have seen him feature, Parling would have been involved in as well. However if it is what he has been picked for, and he has struggled with it at club level, is that not also a worry? Kitchener is unlikely to feature in the test team anyway. Do you see my general point about the lineout?

Glad T. Youngs has been picked, will be interesting to see what roundtree can do with him.

However if it is what he has been picked for, and he has struggled with it at club level, is that not also a worry? Kitchener is unlikely to feature in the test team anyway. Do you see my general point about the lineout?

I do see your general point and I think Lancaster has noticed as well, hence the multiple lineout second rows selected.

Kitchener struggled initially but pretty much every lock coming in does, it took Skivington 3 months and he owned up to having plastered the walls of his house with the calls because he was trying to learn them all. Kitchener started pretty average but has really picked up and would have certainly been involved last weekend had he not picked up a knock. He scored a 60m score in the A league semi final the other week so he has a bit of pace and Tigers have had him working on his tight game.

Canot understand why Monye is in there. think it maybe because Sharples is out injured.

The squad it self looks good, lets hope that all the players gets some game time.

Monye is experience with a good kicking game and solid in defence so I assume he'll be in the mid week team to help the youngsters.Not sure if i'd have taken him but ho hum.

Otherwise Goode is a bit of a random, would have preferred May as cover for the whole back three and 13.

Like others it seems like there's a bit of grunt lacking in the boiler room with the selections so far. Parling will likely be the starting lock with Botha alongside him but the bench option will be interesting, have to say of all of the choices I'd like him to put either Kitchener or Launchberry in there.

Little gutted Wallace wasn't taken either, I really thought his form and nomination this season may have seen him sneak in there for the midweekers. Hopefully he'll get plenty of game time next season and maybe get a chance in the AI's.

Looking forward to a midweek backline of:

Care
Hodgson
Wade
Allan
Lowe
Monye
Goode

I would quite like Wade to get a start in one of the test matches.

I'd like to see Brown get a start in one of the tests

jeffwinger wrote:Of the other options in the squad: Robson is good in this area for Quins but is quite short for an international lock

He's only 2cm shorter than Parling, Kitchener, Botha & Launchbury and the same height as Croft. It's clearly not an issue on his effectiveness, he runs one of the best lineouts in the premiership, and has himself taken 80 lineouts in 19 games, which shades Parling & Croft's 73 in their combined 19 games.

Interesting squad and interesting comments.....

Yes a few players in who i query...the continued selection of Stevens does baffle me...whilst a few omissions also puzzled me...Johnny May, Garvey possibly the obvious ones...

I also really dont get the selection of Mears....if its purley for experience...its another wasted position....

However it looks a good squad with plenty of real talented youngsters given a chance to tour...such as Lowe (finally), Wade, Youngs etc.

Glad to see Haskell is available...and suspect Armitages omission puts the nail in any ideas of a recall.

I cant see us winning the series...might get one test...

Ill be looking at two things:

1) The style we play...more creative or do we stick with farells boot (i hope not)
2) Do we have the physicality to stand up to the Boks....who are also likely to field a developing side...

If Hartley was to get injured on the tour we would have 0 caps at hooker. That's why Mears is there

Bit shocked at the lack of Garvey, otherwise a very decent squad.

niwatts

Have to agree there... height of the lock isn't the most important thing for a successful lineout. As long as the jumper is say 6'4-6'5 and he works in a decent unit then he'll be difficult to stop.

I always thought the biggest advantage a team could get in the lineout was the height of the lifters. A lifter like Andy Sheridan gives teams such an advantage... not only is he 6'4 himself but added to his reach he'll able to hold his locks perhaps 4-5 inches higher than the opposition (assuming the ave. test prop is say 6'1).

Thats certainly more important than a lock being 1-2inches taller than his opposite number.

HammerofThunor wrote:If Hartley was to get injured on the tour we would have 0 caps at hooker. That's why Mears is there

I would rather take a hooker with no caps but aggresssion and power than a bloated midget who wants to be a centre....but lacks the pace.

GeordieFalcon

Come on... its not like if he plays in the tests he'll be playing the best & most fearsome hooker in world rugby. Hang on a minute...........

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Ill be looking at two things:

1) The style we play...more creative or do we stick with farells boot (i hope not)
2) Do we have the physicality to stand up to the Boks....who are also likely to field a developing side...

Had Lancaster chosen the likes of Garvey or Attwood, I would've probably said our pack could've matched them, which isn't bad considering it's relative inexperience. However given the options chosen in the second row, I think we may find it a little tough. Lets just hope Launchbury lives up to some of the hype people are giving him because at the moment he would be the only one who would be classed as an out an out enforcer, and considering the lads only 21 it is a concern.

I think the front row, prop wise, has the potential to flourish on this tour and can see Cole, Corbisiero, Doran-Jones, Marler and Mullen being the regular 5 props in the EPS from now on. Also have a feeling that both Morgan (injury permitting) and Robshaw will develop further on this tour and will benefit from having a more physical, traditional 6 playing along side them.

fa0019 wrote:GeordieFalcon

Come on... its not like if he plays in the tests he'll be playing the best & most fearsome hooker in world rugby. Hang on a minute...........

Yup.... ....he'll get ripped apart...as he has in the past!!!

Tom Youngs isnt any taller...but he's 16 st...and has real aggression and dynamism. Id have him on the bench for the tests over Mears.

Let Mears play for the dirt trackers.....

jamesandimac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Ill be looking at two things:

1) The style we play...more creative or do we stick with farells boot (i hope not)
2) Do we have the physicality to stand up to the Boks....who are also likely to field a developing side...

Had Lancaster chosen the likes of Garvey or Attwood, I would've probably said our pack could've matched them, which isn't bad considering it's relative inexperience. However given the options chosen in the second row, I think we may find it a little tough. Lets just hope Launchbury lives up to some of the hype people are giving him because at the moment he would be the only one who would be classed as an out an out enforcer, and considering the lads only 21 it is a concern.

I think the front row, prop wise, has the potential to flourish on this tour and can see Cole, Corbisiero, Doran-Jones, Marler and Mullen being the regular 5 props in the EPS from now on. Also have a feeling that both Morgan (injury permitting) and Robshaw will develop further on this tour and will benefit from having a more physical, traditional 6 playing along side them.

James,

It would appear from the 6n that the desire is for a lighter, more mobile and dynamic pack with all players repsonsible for carrying duties...rather than your traditional bludgeoning pack of monsters - thus they have gone for lighter second rows...Botha and parling who are very mobile..with parling in particular a very good carrier.

Personally i prefer a monstrous second row....but they are still developing.

Cole and Corbs were great in the loose in the 6n as was Robshaw and Morgan. Add Haskell to that equation and suddenly the Boks will have a battle on.
Even the new caps such as Marler and Youngs offer that aggressive mobile type of player....

Most importantly however will be how we go in the tight....against Ireland it was impressive...but they arent the boks scum...

Mr Rowntree must have had a big input in this forwards selection...and he has been very impressive as forwards coach...so i guess we'll have to wait and see what we have to offer.

I think I'm in agreement with you about the monsterous pack. Although Garvey and Attwood may not be as light on their feet as either Palmer or Botha they offer so much more going forward. I'm of the belief that you can still have your heavy weight locks and still play very attacking and dynamic, big ball carriers are always a plus for that kind of style.

But like you say Rowntree must've had a big input and you can't really argue with him as he's done very well so far with the pack.

jamesandimac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Ill be looking at two things:

1) The style we play...more creative or do we stick with farells boot (i hope not)
2) Do we have the physicality to stand up to the Boks....who are also likely to field a developing side...

Had Lancaster chosen the likes of Garvey or Attwood, I would've probably said our pack could've matched them, which isn't bad considering it's relative inexperience. However given the options chosen in the second row, I think we may find it a little tough. Lets just hope Launchbury lives up to some of the hype people are giving him because at the moment he would be the only one who would be classed as an out an out enforcer, and considering the lads only 21 it is a concern.

I think the front row, prop wise, has the potential to flourish on this tour and can see Cole, Corbisiero, Doran-Jones, Marler and Mullen being the regular 5 props in the EPS from now on. Also have a feeling that both Morgan (injury permitting) and Robshaw will develop further on this tour and will benefit from having a more physical, traditional 6 playing along side them.

I don't believe it is hype, I've yet see anybody go too overboard about him. He is a seriously good young player though who has done outstandingly well in very difficult circumstances for Wasps. I'm not entirely sure I'd call him an enforcer just yet either (I think he will be) as he has been playing 6 for most of the season.

On another note, I'm surprised how little mention Jon Joseph has had on this thread. The lad has some serious tallent and could offer some genuine competition to Manu at some point in the near future. He will probably end up being a dirt tracker, but I am really excited about him going on the tour.

Plus i also think Launchbury could be that enforcer we are looking for.

He's young but he can certainly play and hes tough. At times he was a one man wrecking machine for Wasps this season....

Geordie, I hope you're right as I do think we've lacked that abrasion in the engine room for a while but at the same time I am concerned that he is only 21 and it is a big ask to go to South Africa and be play that type of role.

I said on another thread that I would've prefered Attwood, Garvey and Launchbury to go as the enforcer type lock, with Attwood and Garvey fighting for the test slots and Launchbury learning and developing into the role with the midweek sides.

As it stands though I think its a long punt for Lancaster to drop him in at the deep end and I can see him being limited to the midweek teams which is ideal for his development.

Botha, Parling and Palmer it is then

Botha, Parling and Palmer it is then

Yes maybe...but they didnt do too bad in the 6n...so lets have a bit of hope...

You're right Geordie, shouldn't be too hard on them, I'm sure they'll be fine and we'll function well under Rowntree's guidance.

Just can't help but not wanting to settle for fine....

The locks seem to be generating the most debate, so thought I'd provide the AP stats (therefore no Palmer) for those selected and those that missed out:

Botha/Parling Robson/Kitchener/Launchbury Garvey/Attwood

Matches 17/9 19/7/14 19/21

Tries 0/0 1/0/0 1/3

Try Assists 0/0 1/0/0 0/0

Carries 66/55 92/27/95 158/108

Metres Carried 72/63 113/96/156 244/214

Clean Breaks 2/0 2/1/2 2/2

Offloads 6/3 9/1/8 4/4

Defenders Beaten 1/0 4/1/5 5/11

Tackles 120/63 100/43/137 130/109

Missed Tackles 19/14 5/6/10 9/14

Lineouts Won 29/35 80/20/16 29/47

Lineouts Stolen 3/9 7/3/1 0/4


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/fixtures/3538935/Rugby-Union-Statistics.html

Garvey would be the big carrying bad ass we need. Dammit Lancaster

Good squad. I have some issues, but no coach is ever going to pick what I'd see as a perfect squad. In this one I don't see the point of:

- Stevens: exposed at both LH and TH.
- JTH: A poor man's Barritt - I can't imagine him becoming a world class 12. Twelvetrees should have had his place.

I think the following are unlucky:

- Miller: I think international FBs should have searing pace. As good as Goode is, I think Millers is more likely to make it.
- Burns: Still got a lot of developing to do, but now we are through the 6 Nations I'm not sure I see the point of continuing with Hodgson.
- Garvey: I've thought since the Saxon game he played in that Rowntree doesn't rate him.
- Thomas: A much better 2015 bet than Stevens.

These are the players I'm most excited about:

- Wade: If he can defend at international level then he'll be a sensation - the most exciting English back since Robinson
- Joseph: So good he could force Tuilagi away from OC.
- Launchbury: The next great English lock.
- Fearns: I just expect him to take to international rugby like a duck to water.
- Tom Youngs: We need a credible rival to Hartley, and all the other candidates are too young.

It's going to be a huge test - it'll be interesting to see who sinks and who swims.

Ironically those stats suggest my least favorite SR is probably the best alrounder...Robson...

Launchburys stats for around 5/6 games less than everyone else...in a poor Wasps side...show what most people are hoping...that he is as good as we think....

If Rowntree can make Mullen, Youngs etc as much better as he seems to have with Marler, our front row looks very threatening.

I agree with Dave on his exciting prospects but could I also add Lowe who looks like he could be the alround OC to compliment JJ's flyer-y-ness and Tuilagi's power

The coaches have picked much more on form than MJ did, and this is good. However, whilst I've been more impressed with Lowe in the last few weeks than I ever have before I'm not sure I see an international class 13 there - certainly compared to Tuilagi and JJ. I also expect Daly will surpass him, and possibly Addison too. I also expect Trinder will come again.

Still, he deserves a chance to prove he is international class.

Regarding those stats I think it's important to note that Launchbury has played pretty much all his games at 6 for Wasps and that Garvey has played more than a few in the backrow for Irish. Needless to say, turning out in a different position will demand different aspects of play and reduce or increase certain opportunities.

Just seen the rugby club and agree with Stuart Barnes that Benjamin would have been a good call. I think he'll feature next season after his move to Tigers.

Benjamin will benefit much more from a full pre-season with his new club than a bit part in a tour.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ironically those stats suggest my least favorite SR is probably the best alrounder...Robson...

Launchburys stats for around 5/6 games less than everyone else...in a poor Wasps side...show what most people are hoping...that he is as good as we think....

Which is why Robson's in the squad. What the stats seem to be telling me is that we're not comparing apples with apples. Of the locks listed, Robson and Parling are taking far more lineouts per game, and carrying a fair bit less. The others fit the "enforcer" profile much more closely, with Attwood being somewhere in between.

What's slightly worrying is the missed tackle count - Parling's seems very high, and Launchbury's is high compared to Robson's (whose lower tackles per game might be down to having Robshaw inside him).

Those stats do suggest that Garvey would have been a good choice as the enforcer type role. Alongside Parling, I think they could have been a good unit. The stats also flatter Attwood...

Launcburry is a heck of a talent, and I honestly can't wait to see him in the midweek games. He's a monster for his age, and will only put on more size as he develops. I think his time at 6 will really have benefited his overall game, and that shows in his tackling stats.

HammerofThunor wrote:Benjamin will benefit much more from a full pre-season with his new club than a bit part in a tour.

This isn't about benefitting Benjamin, this is about what is best for the England side. Having a proper left-wing would be a good thing. Although of course if you asked Benjamin what he thinks would benefit his development most I'm sure he'd say going on tour to SA, even if he didn't play in the tests.

This isn't about benefitting Benjamin, this is about what is best for the England side

Having Benjamin get a full pre season and cement his place in Tigers first team for the start of the season might well be in England's best interests. From the position in the first team he'll get HEC experience and that will be good for his development. If he arrives late to pre season then there's a few wingers on the books with Thompstone, Goneva, Hamtilton, Smith and Lewington all chasing one of the two wing spots. With Benjamin I think the England camp will be looking to next years 6N rather than right now.

If Rowntree can make Mullen, Youngs etc as much better as he seems to have with Marler, our front row looks very threatening.

Different issues with those two compared to Marler. Marler lacked technical ability in the tight but had all the physical requisits and so Rowntree was able to impart some of his considerable scrummaging knowledge and get good results. Youngs is already very good in the scrum (for me better than Chuter and miles ahead of Hawkins) ditto around the park but I can't see how Rowntree will fix his lineout throwing when Youngs is already working hard on it with Cockers and the England lineout coach that does the rounds of the clubs. Mullan needs to just not get broken so probably less time with Rowntree and more time with the conditioning crew to make sure he's ready for the big impacts down in SA.

I like Mullan a lot. Have to confess I haven't seen to much of him this season, but how has his scrummaging been? Will he hold up against the SA scrums?

I like Mullan a lot. Have to confess I haven't seen to much of him this season, but how has his scrummaging been? Will he hold up against the SA scrums?

I'd imagine so. The Worcester pack has been struggling with injuries but the front row have tended to hold their own and Mullan has a nice balance of skills in the tight and the loose. He is quite short so alongside Tom Youngs the opposition tighthead is going to have a miserable time getting low enough to get underneath them and both of them are pretty powerful so together they should make nuisence of themselves provided they aren't having to carry Stevens in the set piece.

Cheers Sam. Was thinking the same thing regarding Youngs and Mullan's height- could cause some serious problems. I like Mullan's loose game a lot, and one positive is that all our front row options (bar bloomin' stevens) have a good carrying game. He's got hell of a pace as well for a big man, so could flourish on the hard SA grounds.

Stevens gets a lot of abuse (plenty from me) but to be fair his loose game isn't bad. For every penalty he gives away he normally generates one or a turnover and he can be relied upon to carry just as well or a touch better than the other tightheads. His major problem is the other tightheads concede far less penalties and still generate the odd turnover/penalty but are all in another league of scrummaging ability. Still Stevens has this weekend to try and show some improvement at the set piece so we will see.

I'm not impressed by his loose game at all. Before his ban, I thought it was his primary asset- good, strong, penetrating runs. Since his return, I've haven't seen anything of him in the loose to be honest. Can't remember any significant ones during the 6N. To me, he just seems overweight and unfit. His one positive is that, as you said Sam, he generates the occasional turnover. Problem is, all of our other prop options do the same (Corbs and Cole especially), but also offer a heck of a lot more around the park.

I am gutted that Stevens' ridiculously over the top 3 year ban seems to have effectively ruined his career. He was terrific pre ban and i was eagerly anticipating his return. - mostly for his carrying and offloading.

He has been fairly rubbish since his return though.