Ibeabuchi, Tua and what might have been

It's probably fair to say that most fight fans have been pretty much disillusioned by the heavyweight division in recent years. It's not without precedent, of course ; many times throughout history the division has found itself in the doldrums in the immediate aftermath of a great champion's retirement. Johnson, Dempsey ( and Tunney, for that matter, ) Louis and Ali all left a bit of a ' hole ' when they retired or were displaced, and when Lennox Lewis called it a day we had just seen three high profile champs, each a candidate for a top fifteen of all time slot.

Vitali and Wlad Klitschko were left to carry the torch, and to do so with the unfortunate and frustrating circumstances by which the two best heavies in the world could never share a ring and the talent pool immediately beneath them was pretty dry. The manner in which the Klitschkos do business irritates me beyond belief, but I do have a certain sympathy for them as fighters since, in the near absence of high quality opposition, they have probably not been able to shake off the the idea that they are ' eagles among crows. ' They have their supporters, of course, but they also have detractors who will never see them as anything more than a couple of very strong athletes with robotic styles who happened to be in the right place at the right time. My take, for what it's worth, would be that Wlad is not much more than Primo Carnera with a punch but that Vitali, despite being ostensibly the ' stiffer ' and more robotic of the two, has been a ' real deal ' heavyweight.

Things could have been considerably more exciting if David Tua and Ike Ibeabuchi had stayed in the heavyweight picture during the recent past. The unbeaten Ibeabuchi threatened, oh so briefly, to take the heavyweight division by the scruff of its neck and make it his own and Tua, with his rock solid chin and explosive left hook, also seemed destined for higher things than he would ultimately achieve.

My question, then, is how you all feel the heavyweight landscape would have looked if Tua and Ibeabuchi had been at the top of their games during the Klitschko years, and how each of them would have fared against each of the brothers. I suspect that Vitali might well have finished at the top of the pile and Wlad at the bottom.

What say you fellas ?

An interesting one, Windy. It would certainly have made for more exciting matchups. Vitali sharing a ring with Tua would have looked strange, given their height difference.

Tend to agree with you for the most part on the standings of the 4, except I would likely swap Tua and Wlad around. Whilst possessing a solid chin and a fairly vicious left hook, I just feel that his lack of height would be all wrong for the Klitschko jab, and sooner or later he would walk onto something big. Would be interesting if he landed on Wlad, however.

Ibeabuchi LOOKED like he could have been great; he literally had everything in the Tua and Byrd fights. I believe he could have given the brothers or many heavyweights of recent vintage a run for their money.

Tua was too small to bother either of the brothers. For Wlad, basically watch Tua's fight with lennox lewis and that's how it would go. A young Vitali might have snuck a late stoppage due to accumalated punishment.

Good article by the way Windy; very different and made me think. Going to watch Ibeabuchi Tua again tonight.

Fists of Fury wrote:An interesting one, Windy. It would certainly have made for more exciting matchups. Vitali sharing a ring with Tua would have looked strange, given their height difference.

Tend to agree with you for the most part on the standings of the 4, except I would likely swap Tua and Wlad around. Whilst possessing a solid chin and a fairly vicious left hook, I just feel that his lack of height would be all wrong for the Klitschko jab, and sooner or later he would walk onto something big. Would be interesting if he landed on Wlad, however.

I certainly see your logic regarding Tua and Wlad, Fists, but I can't help thinking about Tyson and how he dealt with, by way of example, Tony Tucker. Tyson, of course, had vastly superior skills to David Tua, but I suspect that Tua's chin could be the equalizer, allowing him to be aggressive enough to land on Wlad.

Just my take on it, though.

samevans1 wrote:Ibeabuchi LOOKED like he could have been great; he literally had everything in the Tua and Byrd fights. I believe he could have given the brothers or many heavyweights of recent vintage a run for their money.

Tua was too small to bother either of the brothers. For Wlad, basically watch Tua's fight with lennox lewis and that's how it would go. A young Vitali might have snuck a late stoppage due to accumalated punishment.

Good article by the way Windy; very different and made me think. Going to watch Ibeabuchi Tua again tonight.

Thanks, sam, both for the input and the props.

You know, to this day I've never seen the Ibeabuchi v Tua fight. I can't for the life of me remember why that one slipped through the net. Must see if I can find it.

Tua was always a bit restricted as he had that big left and not alot more. What a left hook it was though, just ask Ruiz

Ike, poor Ike. Voices in the head can't be a good thing, one thing is for certain i ain't going to America when he's released. The guy genuinly scares me.

Hard to fathom how good he could've been, was certainly avoided like the plague and as a result the yardstick is hard to place.

Tua's head movement was nowhere near that level, though Windy. See the Lennox Lewis fight, against possibly the best version of Tua there ever was. If you had reach/height advantages, that was literally the textbook example of how to deal with him.

You MUST watch it, Windy.

The number of punches thrown for a heavyweight fight was phenomenal. I think it was a record at the time. Both fighters literally punched until they couldn't lift their arams anymore.

Great, underrated fight.

Good OP. My take is that Ike would be #1, with Vit 2. Toss up between Wlad and Tua. Wlad's chin would let him down against Ike and possibly against Tua. Dont forget that until he got fat and out of shape, Tua was quite adept at slipping punches and had good upper body movement. His chin was excellent and any punch near Wlad's chin would have won him the fight.

Ike was class. He fought like a blown up Mike McCallum. Excellent stamina and all wrong for the K Bros. Devestating puncher with fast hands. He takes them both out. Wlad within 3 rounds and Vit later.

Will check the fight out, sam.

Again, I take your points regarding Tua v Wlad and you may very well be bang on the money. I suspect that it would have been fun while it lasted, though.

Morning Windy

Its interesting and like yourself the situation with two bro's claiming the reign irritates the living soul out of me. Its difficult to assess as I'm not really sure about Ibeabuchi, he seemed to have a good chin and good power, however his fragile psyche may not have allowed him to go much further, For every fighter who was great there have probably been three who could have been on paper, but wernt because a crucial mental cog was missing. He might have ended up as another Greg Page or Michael Dokes, so I think the Klits and even Wlad might have done him if things weren't going, Ikes way.

The problem I see for Tua is for all there stylistic flaws both bros fight very tall, there legs are always moving for angles but there upper torso's are stiff for a guy 6"8 it would be hard for Tua to land solid.

I'm not quite sure much may have changed mate in my opinion, which is quite drastic, hopefully Haye can bring a new era.

Nice one.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:An interesting one, Windy. It would certainly have made for more exciting matchups. Vitali sharing a ring with Tua would have looked strange, given their height difference.

Tend to agree with you for the most part on the standings of the 4, except I would likely swap Tua and Wlad around. Whilst possessing a solid chin and a fairly vicious left hook, I just feel that his lack of height would be all wrong for the Klitschko jab, and sooner or later he would walk onto something big. Would be interesting if he landed on Wlad, however.

I certainly see your logic regarding Tua and Wlad, Fists, but I can't help thinking about Tyson and how he dealt with, by way of example, Tony Tucker. Tyson, of course, had vastly superior skills to David Tua, but I suspect that Tua's chin could be the equalizer, allowing him to be aggressive enough to land on Wlad.

Just my take on it, though.

That would be my only issue with your view really, Windy. With the correct technique and execution, somebody of that height could indeed prove a nightmare for Wlad, slipping the jab with the bobbing head movement whilst countering with short sharp hooks, but as you alluded to, Tua just doesn't have the skill to pull this off in the manner that Tyson undoubtedly would have if he had faced Wlad. Can never say never, but just my tuppence worth.

az, Jimmy,

Thanks to each of you for your insights. There is a very interesting variation in opinions, thus far, and I eagerly look forward to reading the opinions of others.

Ibeabuchi was a better fighter for me than Rahman, Peter, Maskaev etc. And by a considerable distance. If he had kept his marbles, he would have been a multiple defense alphabet title holder at worst.

It is such a shame, because you can honestly see where he is the rival that Vitlai Klitschko needed and has never had.

I certainly agree with the general feeling that Ibeabuchi and Vitali would have been scrapping it out for top spot. Ibeabuchi, to my mind, had the most complete skill set of the lot of them; genuine power, solid chin, fairly good hand speed (certainly trumps Vitali in that department) and stamina to boot, as shown in that epic battle with Tua. However, with the exception of perhaps Rocky Marciano, I'm not sure there has ever been another Heavyweight who makes so much out of what (relatively) little attributes he has as Vitali. Even allowing for his less than stellar opposition, to be bereft of any great speed, single punch knockout power and footwork, to barely lose a single round since that defeat to Lewis is impressive.

Wladimir against Ibeabuchi has got a win for the Nigerian written all over it, for me. Obviously, Ibeabuchi's aggression and power against Wladimir's (sometimes) suspect chin could be a huge factor, but even taking that aside, I actually think that Ibeabuchi is one of the few Heavyweights to emerge over the last fifteen years who could also outbox Wladimir, rather than simply outgun him and blast him out.

Tua, on the other hand, couldn't do the outboxing bit, but could do the blasting out against Wladimir. Even before his 'rebirth' under Steward, the younger Klitschko brother had a tendancy to slip in and out between utterly dominant performances, and then lazy ones in which he hung his jab out to dry and was totally powerless once someone crept inside it. I'd make a fight between Wladimir and Tua a real pick 'em had it happened between 2000 and 2005.

My gut feeling is that Vitali would have just about pipped Ibeabuchi to top spot, as Ibeabuchi's perceived mental frailty could cost him in a war of attrition (which a fight with Vitali would almost certainly be) with Wladimir and Tua going any way you like underneath them. On his A-game, Wladimir could outbox Tua all day long, but any mishaps and it's almost certain that Tua sends him sprawling. Certainly would have made the Heavyweight scene a lot more interesting than it has been over the last decade, that's for sure.

Good article, Windy. Sorry my response dragged on!

It didn't drag on in the slightest, Chris. On the contrary, it was a very thorough and interesting analysis.

88Chris05 wrote:I certainly agree with the general feeling that Ibeabuchi and Vitali would have been scrapping it out for top spot. Ibeabuchi, to my mind, had the most complete skill set of the lot of them; genuine power, solid chin, fairly good hand speed (certainly trumps Vitali in that department) and stamina to boot, as shown in that epic battle with Tua. However, with the exception of perhaps Rocky Marciano, I'm not sure there has ever been another Heavyweight who makes so much out of what (relatively) little attributes he has as Vitali. Even allowing for his less than stellar opposition, to be bereft of any great speed, single punch knockout power and footwork, to barely lose a single round since that defeat to Lewis is impressive.

Wladimir against Ibeabuchi has got a win for the Nigerian written all over it, for me. Obviously, Ibeabuchi's aggression and power against Wladimir's (sometimes) suspect chin could be a huge factor, but even taking that aside, I actually think that Ibeabuchi is one of the few Heavyweights to emerge over the last fifteen years who could also outbox Wladimir, rather than simply outgun him and blast him out.

Tua, on the other hand, couldn't do the outboxing bit, but could do the blasting out against Wladimir. Even before his 'rebirth' under Steward, the younger Klitschko brother had a tendancy to slip in and out between utterly dominant performances, and then lazy ones in which he hung his jab out to dry and was totally powerless once someone crept inside it. I'd make a fight between Wladimir and Tua a real pick 'em had it happened between 2000 and 2005.

My gut feeling is that Vitali would have just about pipped Ibeabuchi to top spot, as Ibeabuchi's perceived mental frailty could cost him in a war of attrition (which a fight with Vitali would almost certainly be) with Wladimir and Tua going any way you like underneath them. On his A-game, Wladimir could outbox Tua all day long, but any mishaps and it's almost certain that Tua sends him sprawling. Certainly would have made the Heavyweight scene a lot more interesting than it has been over the last decade, that's for sure.

Good article, Windy. Sorry my response dragged on!

Good morning chris.

Just a point. Ike's mental frailties were exposed outside of the ring. His fight with Tua was certainly a war of attrition and he didn't flinch. Come fight time against the K Bros, he would have blasted Wlad out and thoroughly out boxed Vit before an accumulation of hard punches finished Vit off.

I would back Wlad to outbox Tua in a similar manner to Lewis. Tua has a great chin and punches extrememly hard, but he is tiny for a modern heavyweight.

Don't think Ibeabuchi finishes Vitali off, Azania; the man has never been down.

samevans1 wrote:Don't think Ibeabuchi finishes Vitali off, Azania; the man has never been down.

From rounds 5-6 Lewis was getting to him and hitting him with some huge shots. If that cut hadn't happened,lewis would have floored him and KO'd him imo.

Ike would have done the same, but in the latter rounds. The man was very accurate with huge punches with either hand. Excellent body puncher and he'd have a huge target in Vit's body.

I think Ike was superb; but I don't think he would KO Vitali. That upperuct Lewis hit him with broke the sound barrier; he kept coming.

A see a bruising points win for either man; possibly with hard, unremitting action and perhaps no knockdowns.

Ike was allegedly a steroid cheat though.

JT

Do you have evidence of that?

I'm sure he's admitted it himself. Will try and find something.

I must admit, I've never heard that before.

His Wiki page is intersting reading. God he was/is nuts.

Voices in his head must say something about him.

It would have been interesting but I think there actual fight took more out of the both of them then you think.

I haven't seen it for a while but I can remember giving Tua the nod. Tua was class back in the day and I think this fight proves on his day, he could box a Klitshcko comfortably.

The blows they exchanged where quite brutal and it was the most punches thrown in a heavyweight fight until recently.

Did anyone else give Tua the nod?

Could have gone ither way. Draw would have been fair.

Couldn't see Tua beating VK. It would be like Tua v Lewis all over again, only with less chance of a KO.

I gave it to Ike by a couple of rounds. VK against Tua would be a win for VK on points. Possibly a close fight. Lewis gave a masterclass in jabbing and moving against Tua. VK doesn't have movement anywhere near Lewis and lewis is no great shakes on his feet.

Lewis didn't have great footwork by any means; but he was expert at controlling distance and timing fighters coming in.

Vitali is excellent at fighting tall; I can't see how Tua could get anywhere near him really. The size disparity is huge.

It would have been interesting but I think there actual fight took more out of the both of them then you think.

I haven't seen it for a while but I can remember giving Tua the nod. Tua was class back in the day and I think this fight proves on his day, he could box a Klitshcko comfortably.

The blows they exchanged where quite brutal and it was the most punches thrown in a heavyweight fight until recently.

Did anyone else give Tua the nod?

I had Ibeabuchi winning by two rounds I think mate; but it was a close one.

samevans1 wrote:Lewis didn't have great footwork by any means; but he was expert at controlling distance and timing fighters coming in.

Vitali is excellent at fighting tall; I can't see how Tua could get anywhere near him really. The size disparity is huge.

Dont get me wrong. VK would win. Just saying that it would be a closer fight that the shut out Lewis handed out.

Maybe you are right mate; I think Vitali is not as effective at jabbing and moving as lewis, certainly. At least the current incarnation.

IMO Vitali and Wlad would have had far too much for Tua (current version of Wlad that is) and would win wide / shutout UD's. Ibeabuchi would be a different proposition. I think he owuld really of intimated Wlad and most likely stopped him. I think Vitali v Ibeabuchi would have been a might battle, with Vitali just shading it. Would have love to have seen this fight.

Sport / Fitness Challenges

Ibeabuchi vs McCall would have been a war for the ages...or one of THE most spectacular in-ring meltdowns of all time

DAVE667 wrote:Ibeabuchi vs McCall would have been a war for the ages...or one of THE most spectacular in-ring meltdowns of all time

I'd nominate Tyson to referee it.

HumanWindmill wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Ibeabuchi vs McCall would have been a war for the ages...or one of THE most spectacular in-ring meltdowns of all time

I'd nominate Tyson to referee it.

With Vinnie Pazienza, Herbie Hide and Tony Ayala Jr as the judges, presumably?

It's worth remembering that Ike was being touted as a very dangerous fighter by those in the know. Frank Maloney (Lewis' manager at the time) wanted absolutely nothing to do with him.

He was a big risk to fight, especially after the Tua fight. He utterly Pole-axed Chris Byrd (unbeaten at the time) who was quite adept at getting out of the way and quite quick for a heavy so it's not surprising people were a little wary.

Its worth noting that although everybody here seems to be hyping up Ibeabuchi, his fight with Tua was a very close affair which many people (myself included) thought he lost.
Would he be held in such high regard if the decision went against him?

Don't get me wrong, I think Ibeabuchi appeared to be an immense and dominating force during his brief career but was his performance against Tua somewhat over-rated simply down to the entertainment value it provided?
Despite eventually being KO'd, the likes of Oleg Maskaev and Hasim Rahman had far more success at nullifying Tua's strenth than Ibeabuchi managed.

Tua was sadly just to limited to really make lasting impression in the HW division. He looked clueless when he came against a strong jab.

Vitali and the current version of Wlad would dominate Tua without any major probelms imo. It would be a Froch-Abraham re-run. The dangerous but small powerhouse kept at a safe distance by the bigger man.

Ibeabuchi would provide a far more sterner test for either K.

I would give him a strong chance against Wlad due to his power, chin and workrate. However, since Ike never fought anyone remotley similar to Wlad, it would still be pure guess work on wheather he would win or not.
Wlad could just end up picking him off with jabs all night.
Ike showed some real promise against Byrd, but again, thats against an opponent that Wlad himself went on to dominate on two occassions.
Overall, I probably would give Ike the nod against Wlad, but its not an easy fight to pick as some seem to be suggesting.

Vitali-Ike would have been a real cracker for sure. I can imagine it being a direct shoot-out, plenty of punches thrown and lots of action.
I would give Vitali the edge in this sort of match-up. If Tua could push Ike so close, a prime Vitali should have enough ammo to get the job done.

J. Benson

As you know, styles make fights. Ike stood toe to toe with Tua and imo won comfortably by 2-3 rounds. he landed the cleaner punches. It shows he could trade with a notable puncher. His chin was tested.

Against Wlad, I can only see a KO. Wlad has not fought a live opponent. Those who came with interest won and/or floored him. If Ike floors him, he remains floored. He would also take Wlad's punches (something haye cant imo).

As with Vit, imo, speed kills. Vit has never been the fastest HW. Just cruelly effective in the way he goes about his business. Ike would give him too many angles and win a decision. But one thing for sure, it would have been a fight for the ages. Vit fights in his own comfort zone. Something Ike would not allow.

The Wlad of today outboxes Tua - even prime Tua - all evening. Controls the space with the jab, Tua doesn't get close enough to land.

Ibeabuchi, however, poses an interesting question.

Given that Vit has never even been down - it is a bit of a joke to pick him to be KO'd by anyone. Certainly - he could be stopped on cuts. Maybe you could make a tenuous case that the ref/his corner could save him if he is taking an absolute mauling - but I don't see it.

Ibeabuchi's best performance is against Tua. Vitali does all Tua does - and more - with more reach and greater strength. Close fight, hard to call it either way.

oxring wrote:The Wlad of today outboxes Tua - even prime Tua - all evening. Controls the space with the jab, Tua doesn't get close enough to land.

Ibeabuchi, however, poses an interesting question.

Given that Vit has never even been down - it is a bit of a joke to pick him to be KO'd by anyone. Certainly - he could be stopped on cuts. Maybe you could make a tenuous case that the ref/his corner could save him if he is taking an absolute mauling - but I don't see it.

Ibeabuchi's best performance is against Tua. Vitali does all Tua does - and more - with more reach and greater strength. Close fight, hard to call it either way.

VK is a totally different boxer to Tua. It would be a totally different style of fight also. I see Ike slipping VK's slow jab and murdering his body. I believe VK would take a sustained beating before a TKO.

If VK had Wlad's skills, then it would be a victory for VK.

Slipping a long jab that no-one else has really been able to slip and capitalise upon?

Murdering his body? Like who else has done?

You're picking upon weaknesses that haven't been exploited by anyone else - ie weaknesses that exist in your mind as opposed to a ring.

That's not to say they are necessarily wrong, mind. But they aren't evidence based.

oxring wrote:Slipping a long jab that no-one else has really been able to slip and capitalise upon?

Murdering his body? Like who else has done?

You're picking upon weaknesses that haven't been exploited by anyone else - ie weaknesses that exist in your mind as opposed to a ring.

That's not to say they are necessarily wrong, mind. But they aren't evidence based.

Fortunately for the Ks, the heavyweight scene is worse than poor at present. So no-one has exploited their weaknesses (except for Wlad's chin). I see so many weaknesses in VK. Lewis went for his body and got some success. His jab has always been slow and Ike was adept at slipping jabs. Ike was a tremendous body puncher with boundless stamina. He would push VK to fight at a pace he has not done.

Its no surpise that Lewis, Holy and all others stayed clear of him. He was that good. If only.......!

i watched the tua/ike fight for the first time earlier and thought that ike won it but only just, close fight and very enjoyable. was impressed with ike stamina, his muscles where huge in that fight and he was still throwing bombs in the 12th- shame about his mental state, can only imagaine what he would have been like if hadn't had the problems he did- i'd back him against either k bro's- tua KOing wlad but KO'd against vitali

azania -

I actually would start Ike as the the favourite to beat Wlad and as a very live underdog against Vitali.

However, I just feel that when looking at Ike's career, it is just a load of "if's" and "buts". Similar to Edwin Valero, its really hard to judge how his career would have panned out.

You point out that Wlad has not fought a "live" opponent. While true to an extent, I would still say that Wlad has a more proven record than Ike did.

The President had two good wins on his record.
One was a close UD against David Tua, a fighter that Lewis went on to beat by an absolute shut out.
The other was a mid round TKO (he was winning by SD at that point) against the skilled but small Chris Byrd, who boxer who went on to suffer two beatdowns against Wlad.

To my reckoning, Ike was still somewhat unproven. He had never faced anyone that possessed Wlad's physical presence, jab and awkward style.

Its unclear to me on how he would have been able to deal with it, in the same way, I'm sure unsure how Wlad would have dealt with him.

A prime Vitali I feel would beat Ike. Although he has become somewhat staturesque over the last few years, a prime Vitali was no slouch and for a big man, was quite mobile. He possessed almost all the same qualities as Ike...iron chin, heavy hands, great workrate, etc. However, I just feel his extra physical advantages would give him the edge. It would be a close fight though, no doubt.

A final point worth noting about Ike Ibeabuchi, is that he never would have gone on to become a dominating champ imo. While he certainly could have picked up a belt, I don't believe he would have spent years at the top like the K's have managed.
His aggressive, confrontational style meant that he shipped in alot of damage. Took too many blows to the head. Boxers who allow themselves to get caught with big, flush power shots will never have a long shell life.
If Ike had stayed active, he would most probably have looked shot by the early noughties. The fact he was so mentally unstable, would also lead me to believe that his carreer could have been plagued by Golota-style breakdowns.

I agree with you totally regarding Wlad. Ike had the potential but for reasons known to Ike only (and those living inside his head) it was never fulfilled. All we got was a giompse of what migh have been.

I dont agree regarding Vit. But take Vit away from the equation for a sec, I believe Ike would have dominated the HW scene for a long time. Although he shipped some punishment due to his style, who has there been over the past 10 years to really do anything to him. We've had fat plodders, unmotivated paycheque seekers and recycled never-would-have-made-it-anywhere challengers.

I posted this back in 2006 on the Five Live boards on the beeb before they changed too 606 and I still have the same opinion on Ike.

The President would absolutely destroy todays champions and top 10 and Im including Vitali and Wladimir in that.
He took everything a prime David Tua could give in what I believe is still the highest number of punches in a Heavyweight contest.
He chased the nimble footed and dodge artist Chris Byrd and put him down 3 times-the scene I love in that fight is Ike walking back to the corner screaming frustration cos he cant get his hands on Byrd and believe me he put that right.
So we have a great chin, as proved in the Tua fight and he cant be outboxed by a dancer, like he proved againest Byrd who has been champ for a good while now.
I support Lennox Lewis big time, hes my favourite boxer of alltime but at the time I was nervous about the prospect of him meeting Ike!
Holyfield, Bowe and Tyson would have all had the hidings of there lives againest Ike Ibeaubuchi!