Woods chimes in on slow play

by incontinentia Mon May 14, 2012 11:38 pm

From USA Today:

Of course Tiger Woods would like to play better. That is in his hands. He'd also like to play faster. That is out of his control.

While Kevin Na was ridiculed for his incessant waggles during the Players Championship, it seems like the world is getting slower playing golf.

Woods, who pointed out that rounds are taking almost five hours on tour, thinks a no-tolerance policy is needed.

Woods puts the onus on the young players saying college rounds are sometimes "six hours plus."

A player on the tour needs two clock violations to be assessed a stroke. Woods tells Ryan Ballengee of Golf Channel that "I think it's very simple. If you get a warning, you get a penalty. I think that would speed it up."

While a player can get up to a $20,000 fine, Woods says that is pocket change for those who run up the leaderboard and get six figures for their finish. "...That's what people don't realize – that one shot is so valuable out here."

by super_realist Mon May 14, 2012 11:41 pm

Not like Woods to offer an opinion. Are you sure this isn't one of his lackies doing his Twitter bidding?

by hend085 Tue May 15, 2012 1:29 am

woods has actually been very slow since he returned i think. he has so many swing thoughts since he has gone so "mechanical"

by McLaren Tue May 15, 2012 1:56 am

Unfortunately it is very like super to offer such a banal opinion on a thread where mentioning the great one is possible.

It is interesting that college rounds are even longer than pga tour rounds. I just cant imagine what six hours would feel like.

by golfermartin Tue May 15, 2012 2:21 am

I know what 6 hours feels like. My first ever round on an 18 hole municipal. We called so many people through - we were dead scared to hold anybody up!

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 2:31 am

McLaren wrote:Unfortunately it is very like super to offer such a banal opinion on a thread where mentioning the great one is possible.

by incontinentia Tue May 15, 2012 3:14 am

Regardless of how long it takes guys like Na to play 18 holes, his pre-shot behaviour is diabolical and should not be allowed. My suggestion is a time limit whereby the players have 10 seconds after address to hit the ball. I believe there is a similar rule in snooker.

Fair play to Tiger for speaking out- between this and his lobbying of the R&A about long putters he is doing good work to improve the integrity of the game.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 3:24 am

Perhaps he's just trying to whittle down his challengers, its a bit hypocritical when Woods is hardly lightning himself, some of the rules decisions he's benefited from have taken an age and also when his own on course behaviour and demeanour is so poor. If he truly wanted to improve integrity of the game he'd look in the mirror amd do something about himself before having a go at anyone else.

I don't know how/why a pro could take so long to hit a shot, surely it just instill more tension and hesitation.

by Fader Tue May 15, 2012 3:33 am

Is Woods not aware that the 2nd warning on the PGA slow play rules is a penalty shot? So hardly saying anything that's not already a rule!

However its enforcing it that seems to escape the tours hierarchy.

I know what slow play feels like suffered a 5hr 45min round just yesterday, that was more down to the club we played at letting far to many people on the course!

As for long putters I have no issue with them at all, I'm considering investing in a belly putter purely to see if it will help me further. I don't get why people are sying its cheating, you can't be a cheat if the rules allow it. Despite what people say it against the spirit of the game etc, rules are rules and they allow it simples.

by oldparwin Tue May 15, 2012 3:35 am

I think Woods is just saying what most of the older Pro's think, that these young lads that come out of college onto the tour are taking far to long, with discussions with their caddies, then their elaborate pre-shot routines.

Shots should be added to their scorecard at the end of the round, you would not need to do that to often to see how quick they can really play.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 3:41 am

I doubt Woods would be complaining if he was winning tournaments. Just another pathetic excuse.

by Shotrock Tue May 15, 2012 3:59 am

Whether it was Woods or a publicist of his, I agree with the sentiment.

The actual one stroke penalty is nothing more than a UN-like toothless resolution - they never enforce it.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 4:04 am

There needs to be a backlash against the Finchem regime. It's all down to him not enforcing sanctions against slow players, in fact he probably encourages it as it means more airtime.

I reckon around 90% of golfers are too slow.

by twoeightnine Tue May 15, 2012 4:17 am

I think it is pretty good of Woods to speak up. Like him or not he is still the biggest name of his generation and when he chooses to break out of his bland, "I took a 5 iron on 6, etc." I am sure that the powers that be actually listen.

Kevin Na being at the sharp end at the weekend has probably been a good thing as it has highlighted the problem. I would imagine the reason that it is so much more obvious with him is that the TV normally doesn't follow all the the preshot stuff, just cuts to the player as he addresses the ball. Problem for Na is that he still has a minute to go.

I actually started to have some sympathy for him as I think he has almost got the yips.

No surprise that college golf is slow. They watch these guys on TV and copy it. When Woods was all over the TV before getting caught out look how many kids did the Woods drop the club over your shoulder after a bad shot. They just copy and the slow play is just another example.

Cannot imagine how frustrating a 6 hour round must be though.

by oldparwin Tue May 15, 2012 4:18 am

Think that 90 per cent is a bit high think it's only a small percentage, from experience it only takes 1 golfer to slow the whole course, and I am sure it's the same on the tour

by George1507 Tue May 15, 2012 5:57 am

Slow play at club golf level is usually caused by poor golfers playing off the back tees and spending ages looking for balls and playing provisionals.

I know plenty of club players who have pre shot routines, practice swings and so on but they generally don't take that long to go round because they don't hit that many shots.

It's the guys who take 100+ who slow everything down.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 7:41 am

Sorry shotrock, I meant to add I thought it was 90% of tour pros who play too slowly, if anything club golf probably suffers from as many people who want to get round too quickly.

I don't think slow play is the preserve of poor players either all golfers who walk too slowly, procrastinate, aren't ready to play, stand on the green marking cards or don't watch where their ball goes meaning they have no idea how far into the bushes it has gone slow up play.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue May 15, 2012 7:47 am

Whatever his reasoning, if TW can drive an agenda against slow play I'm with him all the way.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 7:49 am

Be nice if he could front a crusade against spitting, club throwing, swearing and sulking around the course like a petulant child but I doubt he will do that.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue May 15, 2012 7:54 am

Maybe not, but at least it's a start.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 8:01 am

It's a hypocritical thing for woods to say, even if it needs to be said, he really should get his own house in order before he starts complaining about anyone else as it has no credibility coming from ones of the tours most poorly behaved players, like I said earlier I doubt he'd find much to moan about if he was anywhere close to regular tour wins.
So if people speed up the pace of play does the man sausage still think its still ok to act like a spoilt four year old?
Something like that from him sounds like he's saying 'you aren't allowed to play slow, but I can behave how I like'
Do as I say, not as I do.

by oldparwin Tue May 15, 2012 8:50 am

Super their is just no pleasing you is there. A big name complains about how slow the game is becoming and you complain, surely that's the starting point, and hopefully it might lead to other issues, I agree no one likes to see spitting and throwing clubs, but let's start with length of time it takes to strike the ball.

The golf commentators should also take a lead in this and castigate the individuals, and let public opinion do the rest, I would be happy when they interview the golfers after their round it is pointed out to them their spitting and throwing clubs, and ask them to justify their actions

by incontinentia Tue May 15, 2012 9:14 am

I wonder how practical Tiger's idea would be in reality. I'm not very familiar with how the system works, so please correct me if i'm wrong, but as it stands presently a group gets warned about slow play not an individual player*- so would the whole group be subject to the penalty?

And if penalties were to be given to individual players this would be hugely contentious?

*although on saturday the official spoke specifically to Kevin Na

by lorus59 Tue May 15, 2012 4:35 pm

George1507 wrote:Slow play at club golf level is usually caused by poor golfers playing off the back tees and spending ages looking for balls and playing provisionals.

I know plenty of club players who have pre shot routines, practice swings and so on but they generally don't take that long to go round because they don't hit that many shots.

It's the guys who take 100+ who slow everything down.

I often shoot 100+, I don't take any practice swings, have no pre shot routine, I don't even mark my ball (unless it's in the way). I believe I play pretty fast. Too fast according to my usual golf buddy. So don't blame the crap players. I find it's the ones who think they are good, that play a lot slower.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue May 15, 2012 6:36 pm

lorus59 wrote:...I find it's the ones who think they are good, that play a lot slower.

I'd agree 100% with this.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 7:04 pm

I agree, slow play is unrelated to talent. I've played with slow players off +3 amd slow players off 28. No need for either of them to play slowly. The brain acts better if it reacts instinctively, procrastination cannot be good for anyone. I dont think a long drawn out pre shot routine benefits anyone.

I will add though if people walked quickly between shots and didn't wait until their playing partners had hit before lining up the shot, checking yardages etc golf would be far quicker, although there is nothing worse than someone who plays too quickly either.

by Diggers Tue May 15, 2012 7:50 pm

I do think a pre shot routine helps people. Its not just golf, look at the best place kickers in rugby, look at high jumpers and long jumpers, always twitching and thinking and focussing. Tennis players beforet hey serve, Djoko and Nadal take an age. And clearly in golf it helps some people.
It depends on the type of person you are.
But really in golf if you are ready to play and walk briskly it shouldnt be an issue. Personally I find its on and around the greens that the game takes ages, putting in turn is a joke at amateur level, as is marking the ball after every putt....thgough of course this is part of some people routines.....
Id make a rule to say if you get within approx 8 feet of the hole with your first putt, you should be putting next again until you hole out and not marking your ball.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 7:56 pm

Very sensible diggers, I'd take it a bit further and say who ever is ready to putt first should do so.
I do agree with a pre shot routine, I just think it should be brief and not involve 12 practice swings and constant adjustment of stance, alignment etc.

by Guest Tue May 15, 2012 8:04 pm

George1507 wrote:Slow play at club golf level is usually caused by poor golfers playing off the back tees and spending ages looking for balls and playing provisionals.

I know plenty of club players who have pre shot routines, practice swings and so on but they generally don't take that long to go round because they don't hit that many shots.

It's the guys who take 100+ who slow everything down.

Takes me back to last year when on a horrible par 4 dog leg left and I lost 4 balls off the tee alone!!

It took me over 20 minutes to negotiate that hole so I will hold my hand up as one who has infuriated many behind me.

by McLaren Tue May 15, 2012 8:23 pm

I have never understood why people insist on sticking to furthest away from the hole must play next. It seems others agree that whoever is ready to play next should play.

Is 5 minutes too long to be given to look for a ball?

If it needs 5 minutes the chances are it is in the deep stuff and therefore unplayable anyone. Forcing people to play provisional’s may in fact save shots for them over the long term as hacking it 5 foot further into the cabbage is never good. I would say two mins then go play provisional ball. The habit of playing provisional’s at the slightest chance of a lost ball and only having two mins to find it surely has to help?

I would also make it that you cannot receive help finding a ball. That means your other playing partners play during your two minutes then after they have played you are either ready to play the found ball or you are walking to your provisional.

We could also take it further and say you only get 2 minutes if you play the provisional in the first place. If you have not played a provisional you have 1 minute to find the ball.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 8:50 pm

Not a bad idea mac, I'm sick of seeing people not watching where their ball goes, combine that with unrealistic expectations of how far they hit it and they virtually always look in the wrong place, hence holding up the course looking for a ball that is nowhere near them.

People shuffling back to the tee to play a second really annoys me too. If you aren't sure, hit a provisional or, let the group behind through or take an NR.

Choppers waiting for a green 300 yards away to clear is also a joke.

by McLaren Tue May 15, 2012 9:04 pm

The key is to provide the correct incentives to make people take options that do not contribute to slow play. I am sure the system I described above could be improved and refined but crucially it would make people take options which keep the flow of the round going.

You could go even further and add an extra penalty stroke if you have to walk back to the tee compared to playing a provisional at the time. Although I prefer just offering players more time to find the ball if they are sensible in the first place.

One thing I find curious about slow play is that when playing alone and hitting three balls you can play faster than two, three and four ball groups ahead. In theory if a four ball group played simultaneously then they should be quicker than a single criss crossing the hole to play a number of balls.

Which I think points to people needing to get used to walking to the ball getting ready and pulling the trigger soon after the shot before comes to rest.

by Diggers Tue May 15, 2012 9:10 pm

I think we also need to remember golf is a social game. Soneone may be and playing at a reasonable pace and enjoying their round. keeping pace with play ahead but not encroaching...but the group behind are quicker and think that the guys in fron are actually really slow.
You have to accept what is happenbing on the course sometimes and let it go.
Lets face it a really quick group who attempt to charge through a course and ask people to let them through will actually probably slow the overall pace of play down.

by McLaren Tue May 15, 2012 9:30 pm

Diggers

I agree, I much prefer a sensible pace of play but it just seems some of the common causes of actual slow play could be dealt with by providing players some new choices.

by oldparwin Tue May 15, 2012 10:10 pm

Sorry folks but I was assuming that we were talking about the professional game.
None of them can be classed has hackers, and hopefully the caddie is watching where the ball goes.

I am sure if the pro's speeded up the way they played the game, and spoke out about slow play, that would trickle down to the amateur ranks, and everyone would benefit

by golfermartin Tue May 15, 2012 10:28 pm

One of the problems with the professional game is that they never call people behind through. I believe that they are not allowed to. This means that everyone behind a ruling, lost ball, walk back to play three off the tee cumulatively gets held up. Also amateurs, because the pros never call anyone through, think that's correct procedure. Hence we all suffer.

by super_realist Tue May 15, 2012 10:28 pm

Surely the player ought to be looking too? No excuse for not getting a point of reference for a lost ball, pro or amateur.
One other thing they annoys me about pros is when a wayward shot is followed by an outstretched hand rather than a shout of fore!

Are they so self satisfied they think everyone is watching them at all times?

by number1hacker Tue May 15, 2012 10:33 pm

My usual golf buddy counted the seconds it took me to take a putt the other weekend. I think it was 62 seconds. That included fixing my divot!! Is that too long??

by oldparwin Tue May 15, 2012 11:52 pm

by ScottieD18 Wed May 16, 2012 12:00 am

Kucher touched on a very good point in his post win press conference (by the way well worth watching on pgatour.com - comes across as a really funny and good guy).

After the first warning all players in the group are put on the clock when in almost all cases there is only one guilty party. The partners of the guilty party now have a referee timing all their shots until the group catches up. Even a reasonably fast player sometimes needs extra time on a shot if there are options, lie is tricky or wind is changing. When on the clock these guys have to rush the shot.

Kucher said this happened to him at the Open some years ago and it put him off, but he figured out what to afterwards and this helped him when they were put on the clock for a few holes on Sunday.

If tours are going to give shot penalities (I strongly agree they should) then there would be unfair if the slow player's partners get the penality. I think this must be one reason why pga have been reluctant to introduce shot penaties.

Another problem will be if a penality occurs in the last few holes (especially if not the slow player) and affect the outcome.

Something has to be done but the rule when under the clock needs to be adapted to ensure the slow player gets the penailty. Perhaps when a group falls behind the group is put on the clock and at that point each player has one life and gets a 2 shot penality on the second infringement.

by barragan Wed May 16, 2012 12:18 am

Diggers wrote:I do think a pre shot routine helps people. Its not just golf, look at the best place kickers in rugby, look at high jumpers and long jumpers, always twitching and thinking and focussing. Tennis players beforet hey serve, Djoko and Nadal take an age. And clearly in golf it helps some people.
It depends on the type of person you are.
But really in golf if you are ready to play and walk briskly it shouldnt be an issue. Personally I find its on and around the greens that the game takes ages, putting in turn is a joke at amateur level, as is marking the ball after every putt....thgough of course this is part of some people routines.....
Id make a rule to say if you get within approx 8 feet of the hole with your first putt, you should be putting next again until you hole out and not marking your ball.

good point - but i'd go the other way - its far more important for me to have a putts inside 8ft lined up than a 30 footer - as i'm expecting to hole a good few of them but not necessarily the 30footers.

by barragan Wed May 16, 2012 12:23 am

McLaren wrote:
Is 5 minutes too long to be given to look for a ball?

If it needs 5 minutes the chances are it is in the deep stuff and therefore unplayable [....] I would say two mins then go play provisional ball. The habit of playing provisional’s at the slightest chance of a lost ball and only having two mins to find it surely has to help?

I would also make it that you cannot receive help finding a ball. That means your other playing partners play during your two minutes then after they have played you are either ready to play the found ball or you are walking to your provisional.

We could also take it further and say you only get 2 minutes if you play the provisional in the first place. If you have not played a provisional you have 1 minute to find the ball.

i agree with your initial points but the last one over complicates the issue.

by Diggers Wed May 16, 2012 12:30 am

How about getting rid of all the rough on golf courses, that would help in finding your ball.

by McLaren Wed May 16, 2012 12:35 am

"How about getting rid of all the rough on golf courses, that would help in finding your ball. "

I totally agree, golf courses need to make the minimising of lost balls a top priority.

by barragan Wed May 16, 2012 12:37 am

number1hacker wrote:My usual golf buddy counted the seconds it took me to take a putt the other weekend. I think it was 62 seconds. That included fixing my divot!! Is that too long??

i played in a comp a couple of years ago where the comp regulations stated in the etiquette section that players should require no more that 45 seconds from arrival to shot execution. i'd say that is pretty generous, putting and teeing off probably take longest as there is so much fannying around arranging the ball correctly first.

by barragan Wed May 16, 2012 12:41 am

Diggers wrote:How about getting rid of all the rough on golf courses, that would help in finding your ball.

rough certainly doesn't need to be cut to a height which swallows the ball up. should always be able to see the top 1/4 at least. nothing worse than going round in circles trying to find a ball when you've followed its line carefully.

by Diggers Wed May 16, 2012 12:44 am

I played Walton Heath a few years ago and it was crazy. Tough course anyway but if you were a yard off line forget about it, the ball was gone in some horrendous rough. As the fairways were hard and bouncy and the ball could kick anyway this seemed pretty harsh to me.
I was really looking forward to playing a marquee course and ended up hating the place.

by barragan Wed May 16, 2012 12:51 am

super_realist wrote:Very sensible diggers, I'd take it a bit further and say who ever is ready to putt first should do so.
I do agree with a pre shot routine, I just think it should be brief and not involve 12 practice swings and constant adjustment of stance, alignment etc.

practice swings ought to count as a stroke - completely unnecessary unless you're about to do something particularly imaginative. personally i find it far more important to adjust my grip or alignment while or prior to settling over a shot.

by super_realist Wed May 16, 2012 1:06 am

Rough (and other hazards) is/are necessary to punish for distance bad shots, otherwise we might as well play on a flat field.
Without such 'obstacles' Mac would be calling golfers to use a lump of coal as a ball as the game might become too easy.

by number1hacker Wed May 16, 2012 1:06 am

Anyone else think 62 seconds is too long for taking a putt? Come on, repair divot 10 seconds, look at the line, mark the ball (because if I didn't I am sure my golf buddy would say something). Line the ball up, take out marker, look at the line again, set up then putt. I think all that in 62 seconds is not hanging about!!

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