Klit perspective - Which of these guys wouldn't rule now!!!!

The eighties has often been referred to as the worst era for heavyweights.........Say we used HG wells machine to transport them to now (providing they were in shape) and tell me which of these wouldn't rule now.........

Tubbs........Witherspoon.....Thomas.........Dokes...........Weaver...........Bruno (yes Bruno).............Cooney.........Page.....Smith......Douglas......Holyfield....Bowe............Lewis...........

Me I think they all do........

Now granted some of the younger members won't remember half of these guys but it's just a little reminder that timing is everything and a little perspective needed when evaluating our Russian friends.......

A little Klit perspective on their "Dominance"...and this was the era of the lousy heavy!!!!!!!!

They are Ukranian and with the exception of Lewis none of them beat the K Bros imo. Holyfield would be the next best bet but I think he would be just to small.

Mate you're missing my point........

So a near 40 year old sluggish Lewis beats a prime Vitali and none of the above beat Vitali.......

Geez I'm surprised Lewis isn't rated higher than Ali.........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So a near 40 year old sluggish Lewis beats a prime Vitali and none of the above beat Vitali.......

Geez I'm surprised Lewis isn't rated higher than Ali.........

Think the apt phrase is styles make fights.

I think you're grossly overestimating the abilities of some of the eighties crop, Truss.

Weaver? Body-beautiful, absolutely. Good enough to pick up a title in this day and age? I'd imagine so, somewhere along the line. But good enough to "rule" over Wladimir and Vitali? Can't see it myself. The fights in which he won and then lost the WBA title offered excitement and a big talking point respectively; granted, the Klitschkos haven't offered a great deal of either. But that aside, what is there to suggest he'd outgun or outbox the pair of them?

Bruno against Vitali? It's got Vitali late stoppage written all over it, for me. Smith has a puncher's chance against Wladimir, but that's it, you'd imagine. Rigid, repetitive in whatever attacks he did mount and so on. The man was outboxed by Bruno for nine rounds, was shut out by Witherspoon (when 'Spoon could actually be bothered, which in itself was never a guarantee) and turned incredibly shy in the face of Tyson's heavy artillery.

Terrible Tim, Thomas (again, when he could be bothered) and a couple of others (leaving aside the painfully obvious examples of Lewis, Holyfield etc) would all be worthy opponents and could perhaps match the brothers on their day - Witherspoon particularly - but I don't see either brother being disgraced, either.

That fight shouldn't have been stopped imo. Vitali was winning the fight and the cuts weren't stopping him winning rounds.

Timing has harmed the K Bros if they were around in stronger eras they obviously wouldn't be as dominant but they could give the very best real headaches.

If that was the case they wouldn't be viewed by some as big boring talentless lumps.

I think by the time Bruno tires he's made a mess of Vitali's face with his jab........Bruno wobbled Tyson who was harder to hit...

Weaver you may be right.....But Tubbs, Page speed kills and witherspoon way too savvy..Bowe well an old Lewis beats him etc......

As for styles etc........Lewis stood in front of him throwing out a jab and sometimes adding a right...

I can understand how Vitali would be befuddled!!

Just don't make these guys out to be anything above ordinary..

Timing is everything.........

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:That fight shouldn't have been stopped imo. Vitali was winning the fight and the cuts weren't stopping him winning rounds.

Timing has harmed the K Bros if they were around in stronger eras they obviously wouldn't be as dominant but they could give the very best real headaches.

If that was the case they wouldn't be viewed by some as big boring talentless lumps.

Nah gotta disagree there, the eye was awful nasty gashes. Like Foreman says at the time "Later in life a man will want to be able to see out of that eye"
It could have been dangerous to keep him in it.

I think he means if you took away the Klitschkos and replaced them with the above, would they rule in a similar fashion??

Most of them dont have the consistency for me. Lewis, Bowe and Holyfied would be the dominant guy for most of the time but in all three cases they are still not above dropping a decision somewhere as performances against the likes of Golota (Bowe), Mercer/Rahman/McCall (Lewis) and Moorer/Ruiz (Holyfield) show.

The rest would all be capable of reaching the top at various points but doubt they would remain there long or have the consistency to rule.

Looking back the 1980s HWs were not as bad as people make out. Sure there was a type of pass the title game going on, but its because many of them were evenly matched. Dokes and Tubbs were incredibly fast and skilled. Page was a superb boxer when motivated, he had it all. Pinklon had a fantastic jab (poor crooner though).

Compared to now, the HWs in the 80s can be looked at as a golden period.

Witherspoon I'd take to beat K2 more often than not. Bowe would beat both relatively easily as he matches up to them in terms of size and was streets ahead in terms of skill.

I'd take a few to swap wins and losses with K2.

azania wrote:Looking back the 1980s HWs were not as bad as people make out. Sure there was a type of pass the title game going on, but its because many of them were evenly matched. Dokes and Tubbs were incredibly fast and skilled. Page was a superb boxer when motivated, he had it all. Pinklon had a fantastic jab (poor crooner though).

Compared to now, the HWs in the 80s can be looked at as a golden period.

Witherspoon I'd take to beat K2 more often than not. Bowe would beat both relatively easily as he matches up to them in terms of size and was streets ahead in terms of skill.

I'd take a few to swap wins and losses with K2.

The same Bowe that wanted nothing to do with Lewis a man he didn't have a size advantage over. Nothing to suggest Bowe would even get in a ring with them he would probably bottle it like he did with Lewis.

Bowe was also comprehensively outboxed by a much inferior Eastern European to be fair Az...

Yes that Bowe. The one who had the gut check against Holy and came through it against Vit who had the gut check against Byrd and quit.

Alex

Are we taking each boxer at their very best?

The problem is Az... is that Alex is a nice kid but he hears all this stuff about chicken Bowe...

and neglects to see Holy 1 and 3 which were real wars...

and it's sad to see a guy like Bowe stained by ignorance..

I said he bottled it from Lewis because he didn't have a size advantage over him something which wasn't a problem against Holyfield. In against a smaller man he was full of heart.

As for Vitali and his gut check at least he had the bottle to get in the ring with Lewis.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The problem is Az... is that Alex is a nice kid but he hears all this stuff about chicken Bowe...

and neglects to see Holy 1 and 3 which were real wars...

and it's sad to see a guy like Bowe stained by ignorance..

Yes Truss, heard it a million times from you, I'm too young so I haven't seen these obvious classics...

AlexHuckerby wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The problem is Az... is that Alex is a nice kid but he hears all this stuff about chicken Bowe...

and neglects to see Holy 1 and 3 which were real wars...

and it's sad to see a guy like Bowe stained by ignorance..

Yes Truss, heard it a million times from you, I'm too young so I haven't seen these obvious classics...

If only there was a site with loads of videos on it where guys like us who missed it first time round could go and watch it now.

Nothing worse than a boxer just quitting. I mean even Audley fought one handed for 7-8 rounds. Danny Williams fought with his right hand hanging loose. But Vit quit on his stool.

Now if you want to go down the route of boxers being bottlers, look no further that Vit just quitting. He had his gut check and failed. Audley is braver than this pu$$y.

It's not that.It's just that a wrongful image has been transposed on Bowe's career...

and I don't like to see fighters maligned like that...

Everyone knows how I feel about Duran but I've never disputed he was a great fighter..just his place...

Think people tend to misrepresent the whole Lewis-Bowe saga....

Meh, he had a gut check against Lewis in my opinion and passed.
Was a bad injury in a fight he was dominating.

By most measurements, Bowe should be a big favourite against both brothers, but I can't really install him as such.

In particular, I'm not sure he'd enjoy the challenge of Vitali too much, assuming we're talking about the Vitali of, say, 2003 to 2005. The reason I say this is because Bowe, all too often, was guilty of abandoning his boxing skills and being drawn in to a fight which suited the other man. Yes, those brawls with 'Vander and Golota made for great viewing, but come on, Riddick - when God blesses you with a jab like that, what the hell are you doing standing toe to toe and relying on your chin in the first place?

The second Holyfield fight was a perfect example of this. Ignoring the 'Fan Man' incident, Bowe absolutely bossed the fight for the first half. Holyfield couldn't get a look in. All of a sudden, the red mist descended and Bowe was scrapping on Holyfield's terms for some bizarre reason. In the end it cost him his titles; I still think he was unlucky to be declared the loser, but that's besides the point, I guess.

Vitali isn't a converted Cruiserweight who Bowe could push around on the inside. Riddick would perhaps take a decision a little more often than not, but if he fought Vitali enough times, such lapses in concentration and discipline would befall Mr. DumBowe once or twice.

Belt in the bin. I rest my case.

If Bowe were to fight toe to toe against either K bros, he would win with ease. Bowe was a superb inside fighter whereas K2 are not.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Belt in the bin. I rest my case.

Vit quit on his stool because of a bad shoulder. Even audley carried on. Vit = quitter.

Belt in the bin etc.....

Rest it somewhere else .......you're ignorant..

What people forget is how well schooled the heavies were in the 80's...footwork..jab....could all go 15 rounds even out of shape at a good pace..

The only genuine heavy either has faced with these characteristics is Lewis...and he was 38 and won....

First of all you must be on something to think that the money grubbing, tedious, unfunny and minor talent with a glass jaw that is Frank Bruno would get near K2.

Secondly only Bowe, Lewis and Holyfield I reckon would rule now. The others not a hope.

Bonecrusher Smith !!!!!!!!!

.....oh dear I just relaised you actually have Pinklon Thomas and Tony Tubbs in there! OMG! You must really hate the Klitschkos!

You say you're American but I don't believe you. You're from a different planet not a different country

Strange omission of Tyson too!!

azania wrote:If Bowe were to fight toe to toe against either K bros, he would win with ease. Bowe was a superb inside fighter whereas K2 are not.

Going toe to toe and brawling rather than boxing cost him dearly against Holyfield, Az. So I wouldn't be so cocksure. Much gets made of his inside game, but it was nowhere ear as complete and effective as his boxing at range.

Besides, regardless of whether it's fighting inside, getting disheartened when it's him rather than his opponent eating a jab, getting stuck in the pedestrian pace of an opponent, the fact remains that Bowe let the other man dictate a little too much. It might not necessarily be a case of getting dragged in to an inside brawl, but I don't think that anyone can say with any real conviction that Bowe definitely wouldn't end up fighting on Vitali's terms, whatever they may turn out to be.

88Chris05 wrote:

azania wrote:If Bowe were to fight toe to toe against either K bros, he would win with ease. Bowe was a superb inside fighter whereas K2 are not.

Going toe to toe and brawling rather than boxing cost him dearly against Holyfield, Az. So I wouldn't be so cocksure. Much gets made of his inside game, but it was nowhere ear as complete and effective as his boxing at range.

Besides, regardless of whether it's fighting inside, getting disheartened when it's him rather than his opponent eating a jab, getting stuck in the pedestrian pace of an opponent, the fact remains that Bowe let the other man dictate a little too much. It might not necessarily be a case of getting dragged in to an inside brawl, but I don't think that anyone can say with any real conviction that Bowe definitely wouldn't end up fighting on Vitali's terms, whatever they may turn out to be.

For me, Bowe was better at every facet of boxing that Vitali. Possibly Wlad has a jab that could compare with Bowe's, but that's where it ends. Bowe's issue was his mentality both in and out of the ring. But if Futch could whip him into shape, he was probably the best HW of the group Trussy named and would deal with K2 on most days.

K2 are masters of dictating pace of fights. But Bowe was their equal and I doubt they could compete with him on the outside where they preferred. I dont for one second imagine they would want to brawl with bowe either.

I know it's a bit later but I would have LOVED to see Ibeabuchi vs either Klitschko. I believe he walks through Wlad once Wlad is out of his comfort zone (might take a few rounds of relentless pressure though) and has an interesting punch-up with Vitali. Not sure who'd win that one if they were both at their peak.

Why do i do it to myself?

I put Truss on a foes list only to be curious as to what is coming next and I see that he's claiming Bruno would take out Vitali Klitschko!

Comedy gold. If he's serious then I think there are only 2 or 3 realistically that would beat the Kbro's - Lewis, Holyfield and Bowe. maybe the Douglas that beat Tyson.

I'm a big fan of Lewis as we know, but what I refute is the claim that Bowe wouldn't have had a good chance just because he bottled it. Bowe vs Lewis would have been an amazing fight.

Az, it does seem that we're (almost) singing from the same hymn sheet here, because as I said earlier, I do accept that, from the outset, Bowe is the favourite against either brother more often than not. He certainly had more natural ability than the pair of them, for instance.

But as yourself have just alluded to, intelligence and powers of concentration were never his USP. He had a terrible habit of making things more difficult for himself than he need have done. And this wasn't just something that cropped up when he was raiding the local KFC a bit too often, either. It was pretty much a constant throughout his career.

That alone is enough to convince me that he drops decisions to both brothers at some point. As I say, I'd back him to come out on top in a series of fights against the pair of them, if we're talking best versus best. But I don't see his victories being plain sailing, and I don't see him escaping without the odd 'L' here and there, either.

The question isnt really which of those heavyweights is capable of beating aKlitschko or becoming champion on a one off though. Its about ruling an era. Bowe in the "peak v peak" stakes would have be capable of beating most heavyweights is a once off. But I think his career highlighted that he didnt have the application to succesfully rule an era, even a weak one, for an extended time.

Nearly all of those guys is capable of winning the title in a once off or if the timing is right. Lets face it, if Holyfield can lose to Moorer, Lewis to Rahman/McCall, Wlad to Sanders/Brewster, Tyson to Douglas etc then of course alot of the guys on that list could emulate it in the right circumstances. But theres alot more to it than that.

Doesnt matter much if Bowe beats a Klitschko and then a couple of years piles on 20lbs, loses to a Povetkin and more or less vanishes.

Chris I agree with you on Bowe being the more naturally gifted boxer no doubt he had the talent but his temperament can't be overlooked.

He had a habit of being in poor shape and he was far to easy to dictate a fight against for a guy who had a jab like he did. The Holyfield fights are case and point. No reason to be trading in the sort of wars they were when you have that jab.

I would pick an on fire Bowe to probably beat either one but how many times did we see that? To pick someone as inconsistent as Bowe to pip the brothers over a series is a bit much for me.

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Belt in the bin. I rest my case.

Vit quit on his stool because of a bad shoulder. Even audley carried on. Vit = quitter.

Completely different Az me ole matey! At least Vit was in the ring. Bowe done a hammer throw and thee belto landed in the bino as they say in Spanish. He never quit because he was too afraid to even get started

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Chris I agree with you on Bowe being the more naturally gifted boxer no doubt he had the talent but his temperament can't be overlooked.

He had a habit of being in poor shape and he was far to easy to dictate a fight against for a guy who had a jab like he did. The Holyfield fights are case and point. No reason to be trading in the sort of wars they were when you have that jab.

I would pick an on fire Bowe to probably beat either one but how many times did we see that? To pick someone as inconsistent as Bowe to pip the brothers over a series is a bit much for me.

Perhaps Holy made him fight in the trenches. Holy was no slouch. That Bowe beat him at his game speaks volumes for Bowe.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Belt in the bin. I rest my case.

Vit quit on his stool because of a bad shoulder. Even audley carried on. Vit = quitter.

Completely different Az me ole matey! At least Vit was in the ring. Bowe done a hammer throw and thee belto landed in the bino as they say in Spanish. He never quit because he was too afraid to even get started

He never quit. Not once. Even when Golota mistook his gonads for his head. Even Audley showed bravery to continue. Vit quit like a spoilt child when the going got tough. What a wuss.

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Chris I agree with you on Bowe being the more naturally gifted boxer no doubt he had the talent but his temperament can't be overlooked.

He had a habit of being in poor shape and he was far to easy to dictate a fight against for a guy who had a jab like he did. The Holyfield fights are case and point. No reason to be trading in the sort of wars they were when you have that jab.

I would pick an on fire Bowe to probably beat either one but how many times did we see that? To pick someone as inconsistent as Bowe to pip the brothers over a series is a bit much for me.

Perhaps Holy made him fight in the trenches. Holy was no slouch. That Bowe beat him at his game speaks volumes for Bowe.

He had the tools so that he never had to be in scraps like that. I don't doubt Bowes talent on his day he could give anyone real problems it's his temperament that is the problem.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Chris I agree with you on Bowe being the more naturally gifted boxer no doubt he had the talent but his temperament can't be overlooked.

He had a habit of being in poor shape and he was far to easy to dictate a fight against for a guy who had a jab like he did. The Holyfield fights are case and point. No reason to be trading in the sort of wars they were when you have that jab.

I would pick an on fire Bowe to probably beat either one but how many times did we see that? To pick someone as inconsistent as Bowe to pip the brothers over a series is a bit much for me.

Perhaps Holy made him fight in the trenches. Holy was no slouch. That Bowe beat him at his game speaks volumes for Bowe.

He had the tools so that he never had to be in scraps like that. I don't doubt Bowes talent on his day he could give anyone real problems it's his temperament that is the problem.

Its never that easy when you have a good boxer opposite you who knows that he needs to get inside to win. Ali had the toold to keep Frazier away. But Frazier had the tools to get inside. Ditto Holy had the tools to get inside. K2 had nothing to scare Bowe. Vit I fear would be in for a sustained beating (peak for peak).
Wlad would be dispatched after 6 rounds. He would put up a better effort than Vit.

This is the worst ever era of heavyweights so it stands to reason that heavyweights of past eras would all rule the current division populated by big but untalented russians and frauds like Haye, Harrison or Chisora.

Not sure about that Gordy, I think the Ks would have ruled with ease over the era between Tunney and Louis. Even Haye and Chisora may have been contenders.

No comment on Audley.

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Belt in the bin. I rest my case.

Vit quit on his stool because of a bad shoulder. Even audley carried on. Vit = quitter.

Completely different Az me ole matey! At least Vit was in the ring. Bowe done a hammer throw and thee belto landed in the bino as they say in Spanish. He never quit because he was too afraid to even get started

He never quit. Not once. Even when Golota mistook his gonads for his head. Even Audley showed bravery to continue. Vit quit like a spoilt child when the going got tough. What a wuss.

I think it's has someone has already pointed out an obvious truth. To most NORMAL people, someone that refused to fight is a bigger wuss that someone who quit whilst fighting.

Would tend to agree josef, worth remembering in that era Carnera managed two defences of the title. Now I genuinely think Carnera is far better than he gets credit for but the brothers are the same height as him but carry far more of a dig, certainly in Vitali's case have a better set of whiskers and as far as I can see appear to have the edge in fundamentals. There were some talented fighters such as Schmeling and Sharkey around then but they were also wildly inconsistent, if Sharkey actually had his head on could see him having success against either brother but the smart pick would have to be either brother over a series of fights solely on consistency

As some idiot pointed out you mean........

Ever heard of politics.....

Although I don't know why I'm bothering with you....you're not worth it..

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Belt in the bin. I rest my case.

Vit quit on his stool because of a bad shoulder. Even audley carried on. Vit = quitter.

Audley had no other option though. Had he quit, he would have lost the chance to win the Europeon title and thus lost his final opportunity for a multi-million pound world title fight. A completely different scenerio to Vitali.

Not sure the likes of Schmelling and Sharkey were that talented as compared to the likes of Page and Tubbs and Witherspoon...

Funny that Manny and Mayweather aren't cowards for not fighting...and yet because Bowe and Lewis isn't made...Bowe is....

Then again consistency isn't in some members dna...........although wummism appears to be...

I'm sorry Truss, are you insinuating that other people are WUMs?

I think you'd best have a look at your recent articles and decide again.

No I'm sorry but Bowe will never escape the criticisms he gets for the "belt and bin" incident and rightly so.

It was such a faux pas in terms of PR. If he'd just let Don King get on with screwing up the fight and kept his gob shut on the matter we'd not be slating him to this day. There's such a thing as ducking, many boxers have done so, but to publcily demonstrate an act of pure duckmanship is beggars belief!