Irish Summer Tour Squad

First topic message reminder :

RELAND SUMMER TOUR SQUAD (New Zealand 2012):

Backs (13):

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
AN Other

Forwards (16):

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster) *
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster) *
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
AN Other
AN Other
AN Other

[quote="Notch"]

Sin é wrote:I wouldn't mention Thorn & Tuohy in the same sentence to be honest. NZ were never rated for their lineout. SA was rated (and Matfield (someone who would have played NZ regularly) rated POC as the best he has come up against. Incidentally, POC named Pelous as his most difficult opponent and not No. 8 Hardinquoy.

Leinster selected Thorn to start ahead of Toner because Toner & Cullen are poorish scrummagers. Thorn is superb. They then had to drop Jennings to accommodate McLaughlin as another jumper (along with Heislip!). McLauglin would have been on the bench if 6'7" Nathan Hines was still with Leinster because he can do all the things that Thorn does as well as being able to jump for an attacking lineout.

By the way, Ulster's scrum got pushed around a bit by Leinster in the Heineken Cup final. That was down to Thorn's presence. Schmidt made a mistake not starting Thorn against a fairly good scrummaging side like the Os in the Rabo final.

It's frustrating for me that you tell me these things as if I don't know them, but we're making progress. I'm well familiar with why Thorn is such a good player.

Delighted you know. There maybe other people here who are not as well clued in as you.

You now admit that a player may compensate for supposed weaknesses elsewhere on the park. You're now a mere skip and a jump away from understanding the logic behind championing Tuohy. And I'm not going to go to the other extreme and say Tuohy is world class. He's just a good player, probably the third best lock we have in Ireland and it's time to build for the future instead of waiting for DOC to find an indian summer that doesn't seem to be coming... what I'm saying he offers a skill set that none of our other locks do, offers a bit more dynamism and your logic behind dismissing him is, er, tenuous at best. And that's being kind.

All I'm saying is that Ireland are not short of ball carriers, particularly when Healy is playing. When competing against New Zealand surely the best place to attack them is at their one slight weakness (the lineout) and have your best backrowers on the pitch who will have their hands full with McCaw & Co.

valjester wrote:

Where do I mention anything about locks, I'm talking about lineout jumping.

I've been talking about locks (which is what Tuohy is).

Artful_Dodger wrote:Agree with the above two posts - Tuohy is the way forward at the minute, O'Callaghan hasn't done anything in a long time, Tuohy has had a tremendous season, ask some of the Tigers fans on here about his performance in our 35 point win against them.

Brilliant ball carrier and tackler as well as solid in the lineout.

How many international caps did the Leicester locks have?

Sin on what basis do you argue that O'Callaghan is a better lineout jumper than Tuohy?

Statistically he has the shortest ape index (ratio of arm span to height) out of any of the Irish locks meaning he is at a big disadvantage in the line out.

He's never been known as a good line forward but has been selected because of his grunt around the pitch, an area that Tuohy is markedly superior at these days.

Tuohy is better in the lineout, better in the tight and better in the loose.

rodders wrote:Based on what Billy? Hes only had one cap and scored against the AB's?

How can you write a player off until he's given a chance?

Who else is their that is better in that position? DOC is 33 and really has been on the slide since 2008.

POC and Ryan are the 1st choice pairing but POC is becoming increasingly injury prone and Ryan and Toner can't play together because they both lack grunt in the tight. Even with POC there we struggle for carriers.

For me having Tuohy in the match day 22 is a no brainer. He's had a fantastic season and was deservedly named in the Rabo dream team.

Going into the next RWC I see Tuohy and Ryan as the starting locks with Toner on the bench. The sooner we give these guys gametime the better.

Based on a feeling rodders, nothing more. I am not saying dont give the guy a run, far from it. I just have reservations as to if he will be good enough for International rugby. Sounds weird i know but there is just something that i cant put my finger on about him.

Mickado wrote:Rather than everyone trying to explain why Dan Tuohy should start maybe SinE would like to explain why he thinks O'Callaghan should start?

Its about Tuohy being a 'break glass' option rather than about who actually starts.

From what I have gleaned from various sources is that Gert Smal favours DOC because he is a better scrummager than the rest of the other options available (Ryan, Toner, Cullen etc.)

Munster has a good tighthead in Botha so that is why Ryan can start ahead of him there.

If POC is out, I'd start Ryan & DOC as they have played a bit with each other with Tuohy off the bench, though I think Ireland could do with Leo Cullen to provide leadership for the pack.

rodders wrote:Sin on what basis do you argue that O'Callaghan is a better lineout jumper than Tuohy?

Statistically he has the shortest ape index (ratio of arm span to height) out of any of the Irish locks meaning he is at a big disadvantage in the line out.

He's never been known as a good line forward but has been selected because of his grunt around the pitch, an area that Tuohy is markedly superior at these days.

Tuohy is better in the lineout, better in the tight and better in the loose.

Not better in the scrums though from all accounts.

For the record rodders, i am not writing him off at all. He has done more than enought to be given his chance. I would have him in the squad ahead of DOC easily. There is just this nagging feeling i have that he will struggle at International level.

Honestly Billy I think the only thing holding him back is injury. Tends to struggle a bit for endurance when he isn't playing regularly but he's one of the most athletic and physical players in the country, has good hands too.

I thought he was Ulsters best player in the HEC final and one of our best players this season. Had massive games against Leicester and Clermont.

I can't think of one big game DOC has had in years. He's been piggy backing of O'Connell since 2008 and when O'Connell is out he's been found out.

Sin é wrote:
Not better in the scrums though from all accounts.

Who's account?

Sin é wrote:If POC is out, I'd start Ryan & DOC as they have played a bit with each other with Tuohy off the bench, though I think Ireland could do with Leo Cullen to provide leadership for the pack.

Now you are changing your tune again. An hour ago Tuohy was too short to be an international lock but now you want him on the bench, which incidentily is what everyone else is arguing?

rodders wrote:Sin on what basis do you argue that O'Callaghan is a better lineout jumper than Tuohy?

Statistically he has the shortest ape index (ratio of arm span to height) out of any of the Irish locks meaning he is at a big disadvantage in the line out.

He's never been known as a good line forward but has been selected because of his grunt around the pitch, an area that Tuohy is markedly superior at these days.

Tuohy is better in the lineout, better in the tight and better in the loose.

Still, good enough to make 2 Lions tours.

And of course his experience and partnership with POC & Ryan gives him a bit of an edge as well.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Sin on what basis do you argue that O'Callaghan is a better lineout jumper than Tuohy?

Statistically he has the shortest ape index (ratio of arm span to height) out of any of the Irish locks meaning he is at a big disadvantage in the line out.

He's never been known as a good line forward but has been selected because of his grunt around the pitch, an area that Tuohy is markedly superior at these days.

Tuohy is better in the lineout, better in the tight and better in the loose.

Still, good enough to make 2 Lions tours.

And of course his experience and partnership with POC & Ryan gives him a bit of an edge as well.

If that's the criteria we're using then thins are worse than I thought.

He has performed well rodders but as they say, international rugby is a different beast and i have reservations as to if he will be able to cope with the intensity at that level. Its just a feeling that i have.

DOC, for me, is no longer of the standard required for International either.

Give the lad a run and see how he goes, i will be pleasently suprised if he is able to cut it at the highest level.

Sin é wrote:
Still, good enough to make 2 Lions tours.

And of course his experience and partnership with POC & Ryan gives him a bit of an edge as well.

Good enough in 2005 to be a test contender. In 2009 he was a dirt tracker and only there to boost moral within the squad with his sense of humour and Geech said as much. That should tell you what direction his career is going.

Do you need to be 6'6" to do well in a scrum then and is Brad Thorn just the exception to the rule?

Ps: McLaughlin did play with Hines at lock for us. He was MotM in the 1/4 final win over Leicester and started in the 1/2 and the final.

Also POC rated Pelous his greatest opponent as a lock not as a lineout jumper there are far far better lineout jumpers than Pelous, many of them are smaller than him and many of them are in the backrow.

Can everyone please note how Sin changes the arguement from lock to lineout jumper whenever he gets backed in a corner.

We should have a special tangent smiley for him

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Not better in the scrums though from all accounts.

Who's account?

Read some of the analysis of the Ulster v Leinster HCup final (more on what Thorn was doing for the Leinster scrum than anything else).

How would that analysis (especially reading what Thorn does for the Leinster scrum) explain how DOC is better than Tuohy in the scrum?

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Not better in the scrums though from all accounts.

Who's account?

Read some of the analysis of the Ulster v Leinster HCup final (more on what Thorn was doing for the Leinster scrum than anything else).

No I asked you a very specific question about a very specific comment. On who's account is O'Callaghan, not Thorn or anyone else, a better scrummager than Tuohy?

AS I say this reluctance to give the up and coming players a chance is the bain of Irish rugby.

Anywhere else, in the World, Tuohy would be ahead of DOC.
Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot - we do it all the time

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:If POC is out, I'd start Ryan & DOC as they have played a bit with each other with Tuohy off the bench, though I think Ireland could do with Leo Cullen to provide leadership for the pack.

Now you are changing your tune again. An hour ago Tuohy was too short to be an international lock but now you want him on the bench, which incidentily is what everyone else is arguing?

I said he was the break glass option. He won't be on the bench if POC makes it. He will have a similar international career to Mick O'Driscoll so I wouldn't be investing too much international time in him.

But will Tuohy be gifted 22 more caps to prove he's as inept as Mick O'Driscoll?

These inches keep cropping up!!! 6'6" is 20 percent less effective in overall terms per 80 minute game than 6'7"? And that's because of the inch? Bloody computers - a plague on the world of reason.

There's a word for it and bulls disperse it in fields when allowed out.

Why would he be on the bench - DOC I suppose.

A player who is 6 years older and has been nowhere near as good this season.
So he will like MOD will he - base on what.
Lets give him a chance shall we rather than pre judge.
Some players step up to the mark and improve when given their head - maybe just maybe Tuohy is one of those.

We will never know unless we give him a chance.

And what if he proves you wrong Sin? Not that I think you will ever back down on this. If he went on to lift a world cup and become world player of the year you would still be going on about how he is too short to be a second row..

geoff998rugby wrote:AS I say this reluctance to give the up and coming players a chance is the bain of Irish rugby.

Anywhere else, in the World, Tuohy would be ahead of DOC.
Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot - we do it all the time

There is a difference geoff.

I am all for Tuohy being given a chance, i simply have reservations as to whether he will be up for the intensity of International level. Right now i would have him ahead of DOC. DOC is (i feel) mainly getting in because of his familiarity with Ryan and POC. Thats a mistake that we have all seen with an underperforming D'Arcy getting selected because of his experience, familiarity with BOD and past glories.

I know you irish guys arent all that concerned about what new Zealanders think, but I'll tell you anyway about how the panel on a particular NZ Rugby show tonight could not see Ireland winning one test in a series of three.

Who says we aren't concerned about what you guys think? Also, most of us don't think Ireland will win one test either..

eirebilly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:AS I say this reluctance to give the up and coming players a chance is the bain of Irish rugby.

Anywhere else, in the World, Tuohy would be ahead of DOC.
Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot - we do it all the time

There is a difference geoff.

I am all for Tuohy being given a chance, i simply have reservations as to whether he will be up for the intensity of International level. Right now i would have him ahead of DOC. DOC is (i feel) mainly getting in because of his familiarity with Ryan and POC. Thats a mistake that we have all seen with an underperforming D'Arcy getting selected because of his experience, familiarity with BOD and past glories.

Why do you have reservations though billy? I don't understand what you are basing it on..

geoff998rugby wrote:AS I say this reluctance to give the up and coming players a chance is the bain of Irish rugby.

Anywhere else, in the World, Tuohy would be ahead of DOC.
Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot - we do it all the time

+ 1

Honestly Geoff I think Kidney and the IRFU are turning us into international laughing stocks. It's embarressing that we are even debating picking some of these players, like DOC, ROG etc.

Everyone else is two years into their RWC cycle whilst we are trying to wheel out guys who should be playing golden oldies rugby for their local clubs or playing golf.

The player welfare program might keep players fresh but it can't defy the aging process no matter how much the IRFU think it can.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Not better in the scrums though from all accounts.

Who's account?

Read some of the analysis of the Ulster v Leinster HCup final (more on what Thorn was doing for the Leinster scrum than anything else).

No I asked you a very specific question about a very specific comment. On who's account is O'Callaghan, not Thorn or anyone else, a better scrummager than Tuohy?

Various sources. DOC is rated as a better scrummager than Ryan. Toland seemed to have a poor view of the Ulster scrum in the HCup and was critical of Muller & Tuohy. Afoa would be regarded as a better TH than Ross etc. etc.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I know you irish guys arent all that concerned about what New Zealanders think, but I'll tell you anyway about how the panel on a particular NZ Rugby show tonight could not see Ireland winning one test in a series of three.

Number 1: What makes you think us Irish guys aren't conserned about what new Zealanders think? We're going down there soon and we always like to know what the natives think.

Number 2: Not a great surprise that the panel can't see one Irish victory....given the history and given the confidence the All Balcks always ooze. But history is always the past and the future nobody can really predict. They can guess, they can even guess right (gambling) but predicting it? - No.

I don't buy into this "blooding players" or playing guys just because a Rugby World Cup is three and a half years away.

I want to see us pick our best team to play our best game.

However even if you (like me) just want to see the best guys picked I don't know how O'Gara and O'Callaghan can be considered part of it.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I know you irish guys arent all that concerned about what new Zealanders think, but I'll tell you anyway about how the panel on a particular NZ Rugby show tonight could not see Ireland winning one test in a series of three.

Thanks Laurie. I don't think many over here can either mate

aucklandlaurie wrote: I know you irish guys arent all that concerned about what new Zealanders think, but I'll tell you anyway about how the panel on a particular NZ Rugby show tonight could not see Ireland winning one test in a series of three.

With no Court, Ferris, Boss, Bowe or Fitzgerald and with Ross and POC a doubt as well as a negative selection policy we have no chance of winning a test

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Sin on what basis do you argue that O'Callaghan is a better lineout jumper than Tuohy?

Statistically he has the shortest ape index (ratio of arm span to height) out of any of the Irish locks meaning he is at a big disadvantage in the line out.

He's never been known as a good line forward but has been selected because of his grunt around the pitch, an area that Tuohy is markedly superior at these days.

Tuohy is better in the lineout, better in the tight and better in the loose.

Still, good enough to make 2 Lions tours.

And of course his experience and partnership with POC & Ryan gives him a bit of an edge as well.

If that's the criteria we're using then thins are worse than I thought.

Read the bit I bolded. Its to do with the length of his arms in comparsion to his body or something

That about sums it up for me.

Injuries to key players and also a very poor tactical and team selection.

Well if he has short arms, how is that going to help in the line out? He is hardly going to catch it with his mouth..

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Not better in the scrums though from all accounts.

Who's account?

Read some of the analysis of the Ulster v Leinster HCup final (more on what Thorn was doing for the Leinster scrum than anything else).

No I asked you a very specific question about a very specific comment. On who's account is O'Callaghan, not Thorn or anyone else, a better scrummager than Tuohy?

Various sources. DOC is rated as a better scrummager than Ryan. Toland seemed to have a poor view of the Ulster scrum in the HCup and was critical of Muller & Tuohy. Afoa would be regarded as a better TH than Ross etc. etc.

No I want the specific comment whereby O'Callaghan is better than Tuohy in the scrum, not Ryan. You said by 'all accounts' so that should be easy to find a source.

Now either back up that comment or admit you are talking bollix and that not one person in the know has ever indicated O'Callaghan to be a better scrummaging lock than Tuohy.

SinE, his Lions tours were 3 and 7 years ago respectively. He was a very very good lock but now isn't even good enough to start for Munster.

This is exactly the problem with Irish rugby. What did <insert player> do several years ago instead of asking what we can do NOW

eirebilly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:AS I say this reluctance to give the up and coming players a chance is the bain of Irish rugby.

Anywhere else, in the World, Tuohy would be ahead of DOC.
Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot - we do it all the time

There is a difference geoff.

What difference

"or admit you are talking bollix"

I think you will see a pig flying past your window before you see Sin admitting to that. Even if it is true.

I think the lenght of someones arms is far more relevant to the physical dimensions of a lock than just thier height.

red_stag wrote:I don't buy into this "blooding players" or playing guys just because a Rugby World Cup is three and a half years away.

I want to see us pick our best team to play our best game.

However even if you (like me) just want to see the best guys picked I don't know how O'Gara and O'Callaghan can be considered part of it.

Madigan was left on the bench against the Os at the weekend (he didn't even get a minute). Do you think he'd be up to the ABs.

Ronan O'Gara has more caps than the rest of the team put together for the Baa-Baas game.
The cuppard is pretty bare when it comes to locks after POC, DOC & Ryan. Leo is getting on a bit as well.

red_stag wrote:That about sums it up for me.

Injuries to key players and also a very poor tactical and team selection.

Yup we're feiced. Other than catching the AB's on the hop in the first test, whilst they are still laughing at our team selection, then I don't see us being too competitive.

Exactly, but Sin managed to turn that around and talk about O'Callaghans' achievements.. which we have been doing the whole time about Thorn and Tuohy, to prove their height hasn't been a hindrance in the slightest.

We really need a facepalm smiley, for Sin alone..

The concept of 'blooding' has its champions and has its detractors. That's a forgone conclusion, given that most things in life have their champions and detractors.

One side says, as Stag alluded to, ALWAYS pick your best players and allow the others to slide in gradually due to natural wastage (retirements) or through injury.

The other side sometimes says - our 'best' players have us ranked 8th in the world - and sometimes a gamble isn't all that much of a one given that quality isn't being oozed by the 'best' players. Some of the other side often says too that the 'best' players potentially ARE the players who haven't been 'blooded' yet. You don't always play through your career the way most analyists would want you to - ie. play schools and be good, play college and be better, play Provincial A side and be better still, play Provincial and improve again, finally flowering into the perfect swan at International.

It doesn't always go that way, sometimes you unearth the special player at International level by simply trusting him and not relying on the splendor of his Provincial form to judge him.

red_stag wrote:SinE, his Lions tours were 3 and 7 years ago respectively. He was a very very good lock but now isn't even good enough to start for Munster.

This is exactly the problem with Irish rugby. What did <insert player> do several years ago instead of asking what we can do NOW

The point I'm making is that the shortness of DOC's arms wasn't an issue in getting selected for the Lions (i.e., he had the physical attributes to make it as an international lock).

Problem is as well, that the trend seems to be for taller locks - POC & DOC are minimum size. Optimum seems to be about 5'7"-8" - after that you are going to be cut in two by any tackler.

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:I don't buy into this "blooding players" or playing guys just because a Rugby World Cup is three and a half years away.

I want to see us pick our best team to play our best game.

However even if you (like me) just want to see the best guys picked I don't know how O'Gara and O'Callaghan can be considered part of it.

Madigan was left on the bench against the Os at the weekend (he didn't even get a minute). Do you think he'd be up to the ABs.

Ronan O'Gara has more caps than the rest of the team put together for the Baa-Baas game.
The cuppard is pretty bare when it comes to locks after POC, DOC & Ryan. Leo is getting on a bit as well.

I would have a LOT more faith in Madigan playing against the ABs than O'Gara, based on this year alone. Also, please see what the NZ fans have had to say about O'Gara. They are really hoping that he plays against them, because they don't rate him at all..

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:I don't buy into this "blooding players" or playing guys just because a Rugby World Cup is three and a half years away.

I want to see us pick our best team to play our best game.

However even if you (like me) just want to see the best guys picked I don't know how O'Gara and O'Callaghan can be considered part of it.

Madigan was left on the bench against the Os at the weekend (he didn't even get a minute). Do you think he'd be up to the ABs.

Ronan O'Gara has more caps than the rest of the team put together for the Baa-Baas game.
The cuppard is pretty bare when it comes to locks after POC, DOC & Ryan. Leo is getting on a bit as well.

Once again you are harking back on past glories with ROG. I don't give a fig how many caps he has. I don't think he is playing remotely well or that he has the assets to beat the Kiwis. This is like you claiming a Lions tour O'Callaghan was on 7 years ago is a reason he should still be in the Ireland team. I would have O'Callaghan ahead of Toner but behind Tuohy. If all players are fit O'Callaghan doesn't make the cut IMO. If O'Connell is injured he could still earn a shot on the bench.

I think Madigan does have the assets needed for us to play better rugby more likely to beat the Kiwis (or has indicated to me at provincial level that he could).