A Second Tier 5 Nations Competition?

Is it time to introduce a two tiered 5 Nations style competition into European Rugby?

How would people feel about a top tier 5 nations consisting of England, Ireland, Wales, France and Italy/Scotland and a second tier of Italy/Scotland, Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain?

The bottom placed top division team is then replaced with the winners of the second division for the following year?

I understand there would be some criticisms. Perhaps the concept of relegation would lead to more negative, fear filled rugby is one possibility. It also allows less room for creativity or ambitious selection possibility which might hinder sides development, especially in regards to building towards a world cup.

Perhaps if relegation only occured if a side finished bottom for back to back years combined with a side winning the second tier in back to back years might avoid this?

Rugny in countries like Scotland seem to be on the brink and really stuttering. Is it fair that other nations are held back to some extent and not given the opportunity like Itlay was to compete at a higher level? I think it would allow the game to develop more in Europe and to better standards. Scotlans and Italy seem to only manage the odd singular win in the competition these days and have never challenged since the expanded format.

yes it is dude, been talking on these lines for ages.

I would also have your proposal every 2 years(the world cup year)

and on the even years have a euro cup with all the teams playing in a straight knock out.


one way of perhaps negating tactical stifling rugby would be to have a points system that awards more points for excess tries etc,etc

I reckon it might be better to get them involved in top flight domestic rugby first. But at the moment they aren't even up to standard in the Amlin. Maybe a combined eastern league Russia/Georgia/Romania with franchises on the lines of the PRO12 could be the first step? Then if these sides improve enough in the Amlin, places in the HC could be created?

In the longer term, if there's any ambition for these tier 2 nations of becoming tier 1 nations then there has to be a way of getting them into the 5/6 Nations. Promotion relegation would make sense. Maybe with a playoff between the top tier 2 team and the bottom tier 1 team, to make sure they can at least beat the lowest tier 1 team before they can be promoted.

But I really think it'd be better to build towards it from the bottom up, through the Amlin and HC.

Sorry Gordy, but my plan would involve more regions/provinces being created.

google 6 nations b, c, d etc.

there is promotion and relegation, but no one can break into the proper 6 nations.

Thing is, if Rugby is stuttering in Scotland, relegating us would kill it outright. We couldnt survive a single year without 6N revenue, our pro teams would fold, and rugby in scotland would die.

I agree that its stuttering here, but we are at a make or break moment. Another couple of good seasons for the clubs and we could get back on track.

I understand that we have no right to be at the top table if we dont justify it on merit, but is killing the sport in one country in order to grow it another necessary? SUrely rhere can be another solution?

feckless you cant create leagues without interest . if these teams played in a well marketed international comp first then they can build there own leagues. also to really aid these other nations we must make the top leagues allow more european or even other forign players into the big money leagues- that will also help progress.

imperial the situation wouldnt kill one nation if they really want to play the game and even if it did kill one nation it could end up growing many more.

Did you not read my post? One year of no revenue from six nations and we are gone, wether we want to play or not. Our pro set up cannot handle such a loss of revenue.

The threat of relegation might help Scotland take more initiative in improving?

But I think if other countries can prve they belong there more than Scotland or Italy then the should be allowed the opportunity. Otherwise they will never realise their potential or develop successfully. Where would Italy be now if they were still on the outside looking in?

And maybe it would encourage countries like Scotland to take a harder look at the way the game is being run and developed?

Imperialbigdave wrote:Did you not read my post? One year of no revenue from six nations and we are gone, wether we want to play or not. Our pro set up cannot handle such a loss of revenue.

Err yes i read your post- what do you think you are a flaming charity or something! blimey

the game of rugby has to see past the 'jobs for the boys' attitude and get other nations involed. Scotland have no given right to anything, you wanna sort stuff out you do it yourself i am sure, if scotland rugby wants to sort it self out- your country and rugby union need to sort stuff out

Thats what I said! But I also tried to convey that it seems slightly harsh kicking us while were going through a bad patch. I know we have no right, but the irb should look to grow the game in other nations without killing it in existing ones.

Im not asking for handouts. Im asking for time to sort ourselves out before you kick us while were down.

Dont finish in the bottom two and you would be fine under this proposal- personally i would be happy with a top 6 with the bottom team relegated anyway- so if you cant finish 5th when the pressure is on you dont deserve zip pal.

Secondly i would go with a european cup format every other year which would also bring revenue to all the nations not just the big boys.

Rugby is dictated by big money games- the sh or nh teams are fearfull of losing money and are putting a strangle hold on world rugby- time to put back- it may be tough for certain unions in the mean time- but do it sooner than later- because in the long run there will be loads of money for all- because we can bring a zillion fans to this beautifull game

I'd rather they kept the 6 Nations as it is, and have a European Cup at the same time as the Lions are on tour.

Granted France would probably walk it, but it would give exposure to countries like Georgia, Romania, Russia, etc. They might not get so badly beaten by teams who are basically using their A team players.

id be fine with that proposal as well but it would be the death of the lions in the long run

ok another suggestion.

12 teams (which could be increased year on year)

3 groups of 4, or even 4 groups of 3 playing home and away- bottom teams get relagated, top teams get promoted.

We would still have the top 2 divisions of highish quality.

and go on then alyn we can take japan!!

Face palm! Already exists do your research before you actually so passionate about it

relegation and promotion doesnt view FACEPALM!

its about getting us all involved together - at the moment rugby is split into tiers- which are becoming increaseing difficult to bridge the gap. Its a classest system with a narrow minded perspective

AlynDavies wrote:google 6 nations b, c, d etc.

there is promotion and relegation, but no one can break into the proper 6 nations.

Well said Alan...

Its called the Euro nations, and has many leagues.,..including most countries in Europe...and is on promotion and relegation basis. Even teams like denmark are playing now.

It is a massive boost to teams improvements....but i dont think they should be brining in promotion to the 6n proper just yet. Let them continue their development...and start going on tours.

Some of the skill levels even in the lower divisions are really quite impressive.

You must see this...defence might not be the best .....but Cyrpus still show dazzling handling against Bulgaria in a Euro Group C clash. I believe the are coached by a Welshman...obviously doing well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeQv8o40ckg

Another thought could be allowing Some of the larger nations to field B teams in the lower tier. England Saxons or a France B team for example.

Yes i would be happy with that...or U23 sides etc.

In place of the churchill cup...

Geordie some of that passing from the Cypriots was brilliant!

I agree that it may be too early to expose them to full on 6N status at the moment and may cause more harm than good with teams constantly going up and down. Stability to allow growth is key for the time being, however with the demise of the Churchill Cup I would be very keen for them to face our A teams at some stage.

Whether this would be for a full tournament in the highest level below the 6N, or as a one off against the champions of each I'm unsure of. For me the Wolfhounds and Saxons would provide a good stepping stone for the likes of Georgia, Romania and Russia. Then hopefully after 5-10yrs of this they will be able to make the step up and challenge the likes of Italy and Scotland (I honestly think that they are a few results away from being a decent team, in the next few years I can't see them being wooden spooners)

Feckless Rogue wrote:Geordie some of that passing from the Cypriots was brilliant!

Too right mate....what impressed me was the mentality.... in that although they knew they were facing a poor defence...they still didnt try to do too much individually...making the runs when they were on...but then passing and offloading brilliantly...keeping the ball alive...great to see...

Relegation in the six nations will never happen; at the most we'll see Georgia and Romania join. What would Scotland and Italy gain from it or even any or the other four should they have a bad season? I'm all for encouraging developing nations but not at the expense of our existing ones. The six nations is exciting because of the history, rivalry and unpredictability, why lose it? I like the idea of a Euro cup every 4 years, halfway between the world cup cycle hosted in a smaller rugby nation such as Spain or Portugal. This would allow the lesser sides to play the bigger ones and also it would allow all sides to get used to international knock outs. I would suggest a system based on average position in the six nations and other tournaments in the past four years with sixteen teams over a three week period in the end of June and start of July. There would be a maximum of six games with squads of 40 and no player is allowed to play more than four games. It would be a win-win situation. If Georgia consistently beat Six nations teams or pushed them close then invite them into the six nations for three years on a trial basis but to introduce promotion and relegation would diminish feats such as the grand slam and remove rivalry.

123456789 you have a very typical but very short sigthed opinion in my opinion. The money has to start getting split up, but all the same I am up for anything to benefit other nations- so i am really up for a euro cup.

people bang on about history lol- history re writes it self- dont be so shortsighted- today haka has more relevance to the history of this game- if we started mixing things up in the NH in 100 years time it could be a england v holland rivalry or a spain v wales- who knows- but dont be afraid of change

One things for sure, if there was a 2nd tier competition Scotland would be relegated into it

There already is a second tier competition, isn't there?

We should try and strengthen the domestic leagues of the tier two European sides first

Gowales how do you suggest we do this. Where is this money gonna come from?? especially when top teams are doing there best to take the bulk of the profits from international rugby.

If we just link the comps with relegation and promotion there may be much more interest in the top countries for the lower level games thereby generating more income. These games will also generate more interest in there home countries sparking of more interest and those countries themselves could get more motivation to sort there own domestic situations out

Imperialbigdave wrote:Thing is, if Rugby is stuttering in Scotland, relegating us would kill it outright. We couldnt survive a single year without 6N revenue, our pro teams would fold, and rugby in scotland would die.

I agree that its stuttering here, but we are at a make or break moment. Another couple of good seasons for the clubs and we could get back on track.

I understand that we have no right to be at the top table if we dont justify it on merit, but is killing the sport in one country in order to grow it another necessary? SUrely rhere can be another solution?

+1

No team has a right to be in a top competition but we should also ensure the safety of established international countries like Scotland. I am all for bringing new countries in but the protecting of existing countries is also paramount.

Why is rugby struggling in Scotland?

More specifically the popularity and participation in the sport. They have a population similar to Ireland isn't it?


and yet they only have two professional teams?

So no team has the right yet we have to protect established nations- that doesnt make any sense at all. Its to conflicting.

There is one just doesn't get any coverage

I know there is second tier competetion in Europe but I am suggesting integrating it into the 6 Nations set up in the interests of fairness, growth and development. In order to have an annual comptetion there is probably a limit on how many teams could be incorporated into a single competition without being too demanding. Six Nations is probably at that limit. So I think having a second tier system makes sense. Other Nations deserve a chance. Scottish rugby has really declined since the Six Nations began and whilst I think a good Scottish side makes the tournament more competitive, they have been wooden spoon candidates almost all the way through rarely recording more than a single win per season.

Scotland has not really adapted to professionalism and Im uncertain as to the future of the game there. Having spent some years there I believe there is a whole host of problems in the game up there and Scotland in general just dont put much of an emphasis on sport culturally.

It would get coverage if it was linked through relegation/promotion.

Gordy,

What I have suggested over the years is that maybe a second tier game could be used as a curtain raiser for one of the big 6 Nations games with the so called 'lesser' teams getting some well needed gate reciept and even tv coverage

So you think it would be fair to give these lesser teams gate revenue in those scenarios when money is tight anyway- the gate wont be boosted by an extra game. Look lets just go the whole hog and properly intergrate these teams and let them have there own gate receipts and own tv revenue by being part of a league split into two with promotion and relegation. I am sure many of us would watch these other games if it was truely linked, becaquse at the moment its a falacy to say there is a second 6 nations- when all it is is a closed shop with no where to go

mysti,

But the TV wouldn't show a lets say Georgia Spain game in its own right but migh (might) show it as a pre runner to one of the bigger games.

As for promotion and relegation then none of the 6 Nations side would vote for that because of fear if they finished bottom and were relegated from the top table.

I think if a second tier were integrated with the 6 Nations competition it would increase the interest in it because there would be a chance of teams moving between the two rather than a second rate tournament that has no bearing whatsoever on the 6 Nations.

Mostof the argument against it seem to be in the interests of preserving tradition and protecting Scotland but were that mentality kept the game would struggle to expand and the likes of Italy and France would ever have joined in the first place.

bedfordwelsh wrote:mysti,

But the TV wouldn't show a lets say Georgia Spain game in its own right but migh (might) show it as a pre runner to one of the bigger games.

As for promotion and relegation then none of the 6 Nations side would vote for that because of fear if they finished bottom and were relegated from the top table.

Well the only way for those games(georgia/spain for example) to get the coverage is for them to be part of something bigger. It will naturally happen if we intergrate.

I dont think the 6 nations should have a vote in this. Its about giving back , and if our teams are to fearfull of relegation then there shouldnt have a choice on the matter.

Question is- Do we want to grow this game or not?., And if we do we have to comprimise

Maybe if like in the prermier league there was some sort of financial parachute payment for the relegatd team then Unions might be bit more in favour of it.

Mysti,

I am with you on it but I just can't see the Unions agreeing

I know they wont- but the only way to get more money in the game is by spreading the game. We are stuck in a vicious circle at present. Sometimes you have to take a risk for the greater good.

Rugby is stuck in this rut of unions talking about money all the time. Its all take ,take,take, not grow,grow,grow

These kind of posts annoy me.

Sure rugby has a had a tough time for Scotland at international level but Glasgow and Edinburgh had good seasons.

What annoys me most of all is people talking like Romania and Georgia are capable of beating the 6N teams, they aren't. Sure Romania gave Scotland a fright in the RWC but Georgia were soundly beaten by Scotland who played to the conditions presented on the night.

When Georgia and Romania can mount a serious competition then promotion and relegation should be debated.

Furthermore, to England fans in particular like mystiroakey, would you rather go see England vs. Georgia at Twickers or England vs. Scotland.......

I rest my case.

Why you're suggesting promotion/relegation I'll never know. It's never ever going to happen.

And for those who are bashing Scotland, you're obviouly not watching much rugby. Scotland getting worse???? Really?

If anything, they're getting better. Apart from the Wales game, they matched, or even outplayed their opponents (especially England). Our pack is up there with everyones....even with an average age of the lower 20's.

Our problem is Robinson picking crap backs when there are far better ones available. This will change hopefully.

And when it does, one or two of the other nations are going to get a good humping mark my words.

Glasgow made a second semi in three years in the Pro12 and Edinburgh made the HC semi's (again, outperforming Ulster). Doesn't seem that Scottish rugby is in decline to me.

Tattie dude your in a scotland bubble. Yes i admit its easy to sit here as an england/welsh or irish fan and say ok to promotion or relegation. But we not here to bash scotland, the topic is about growing the game that is why we are talking about a promotion/relegation scenario. because some of us feel it would be good for rugby.

Tattie mate, i know what you are saying. Your clubs are doing well, much like Irelands but we are both stuck with managers who have made bad selections or given the wrong tactics to the team.

If Scotland were to get relegated than that would seriously damage the SRFU to such a point that i am not sure they would recover financially.

Rugger Radge has it bang on, if teams like Spain, Romania and even Holland were able to mount a serious challenge then talk about it at such stage, now is not the time. Baby steps, not giant leaps.

I think people are struggling to work out this concept- teams like georgia,russia or spain would only be playing the top teams if they have proved to be better than a relegated scotland or italy. If they could do that they would get into the top division and play the big boys.

The only argument against this is to protect scotland. sorry scotland are not a charity case. You would think that in all the talk of independance these type of talks would be in the past!!

mystiroakey wrote:Tattie dude your in a scotland bubble. Yes i admit its easy to sit here as an england/welsh or irish fan and say ok to promotion or relegation. But we not here to bash scotland, the topic is about growing the game that is why we are talking about a promotion/relegation scenario. because some of us feel it would be good for rugby.

Anyone else's BS detector just go off?

Your intention is to wind people up, if you really wanted to post an article in a serious way about growing rugby in these areas you would have suggested England, Wales or Ireland go for tours in eastern Europe or welcome them to "HQ" in the Autumn.

Much more fun to try and get a bit from Scottish supporters.

Good thing is though you musn't see much of Scottish rugby outside the 6N. Otherwise you would have seen Glasgow muller the likes of Cardiff and the Ospreys in the pro12 and turn over Leinster in their own backyard. Or Edinburgh who were firm winners against their Premiership opponents in the ERC, beat Racing Metro home and away and defeated Toulouse in their semi final.....

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Why you're suggesting promotion/relegation I'll never know. It's never ever going to happen.

And for those who are bashing Scotland, you're obviouly not watching much rugby. Scotland getting worse???? Really?

If anything, they're getting better. Apart from the Wales game, they matched, or even outplayed their opponents (especially England). Our pack is up there with everyones....even with an average age of the lower 20's.

Our problem is Robinson picking crap backs when there are far better ones available. This will change hopefully.

And when it does, one or two of the other nations are going to get a good humping mark my words.

Glasgow made a second semi in three years in the Pro12 and Edinburgh made the HC semi's (again, outperforming Ulster). Doesn't seem that Scottish rugby is in decline to me.

Tattie you mention "apart from the Wales game" - I believe it was 3-3 at half time and you should have been leading - The scoreline flattered Wales - I'm glad they stuck with Robinson, you're not far off IMO and with Visser I think you'll pose a real threat

eirebilly wrote:Tattie mate, i know what you are saying. Your clubs are doing well, much like Irelands but we are both stuck with managers who have made bad selections or given the wrong tactics to the team.

If Scotland were to get relegated than that would seriously damage the SRFU to such a point that i am not sure they would recover financially.

Rugger Radge has it bang on, if teams like Spain, Romania and even Holland were able to mount a serious challenge then talk about it at such stage, now is not the time. Baby steps, not giant leaps.

You're talking sense Billy.

Myster - It wouldn't grow the game.

Say Italy or Scotland got relegated - all that would happen the next year is that the second tier teams would get smashed by the relegated team and they'd get promoted straight back up.

Radge has it spot on - What's a better weekend - Edinburgh or Tbilisi. Would you rather be in a 67.500 seater stadium watching Scotland v England or a 10,000 seater stadium (half full) watching Georgia v England?

Grow the game by all means but this is not the answer....and anyway, that's what the WC is for, albeit every four years.