A Second Tier 5 Nations Competition?

First topic message reminder :

Is it time to introduce a two tiered 5 Nations style competition into European Rugby?

How would people feel about a top tier 5 nations consisting of England, Ireland, Wales, France and Italy/Scotland and a second tier of Italy/Scotland, Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain?

The bottom placed top division team is then replaced with the winners of the second division for the following year?

I understand there would be some criticisms. Perhaps the concept of relegation would lead to more negative, fear filled rugby is one possibility. It also allows less room for creativity or ambitious selection possibility which might hinder sides development, especially in regards to building towards a world cup.

Perhaps if relegation only occured if a side finished bottom for back to back years combined with a side winning the second tier in back to back years might avoid this?

Rugny in countries like Scotland seem to be on the brink and really stuttering. Is it fair that other nations are held back to some extent and not given the opportunity like Itlay was to compete at a higher level? I think it would allow the game to develop more in Europe and to better standards. Scotlans and Italy seem to only manage the odd singular win in the competition these days and have never challenged since the expanded format.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Tattie dude your in a scotland bubble. Yes i admit its easy to sit here as an england/welsh or irish fan and say ok to promotion or relegation. But we not here to bash scotland, the topic is about growing the game that is why we are talking about a promotion/relegation scenario. because some of us feel it would be good for rugby.

Anyone else's BS detector just go off?

Your intention is to wind people up, if you really wanted to post an article in a serious way about growing rugby in these areas you would have suggested England, Wales or Ireland go for tours in eastern Europe or welcome them to "HQ" in the Autumn.

Much more fun to try and get a bit from Scottish supporters.

Good thing is though you musn't see much of Scottish rugby outside the 6N. Otherwise you would have seen Glasgow muller the likes of Cardiff and the Ospreys in the pro12 and turn over Leinster in their own backyard. Or Edinburgh who were firm winners against their Premiership opponents in the ERC, beat Racing Metro home and away and defeated Toulouse in their semi final.....

my post was completly serious, i have no idea what you are talking about, my comment was based on tatties comment that we shouldnt discuss a concept of a promotion relegation enviormoment. The bs is from you pal..Stop being so immature

Oakey - 90% of your posts are BS - Just get over it

mystiroakey wrote:I think people are struggling to work out this concept- teams like georgia,russia or spain would only be playing the top teams if they have proved to be better than a relegated scotland or italy. If they could do that they would get into the top division and play the big boys.

The only argument against this is to protect scotland. sorry scotland are not a charity case. You would think that in all the talk of independance these type of talks would be in the past!!

Deary me.

If your post was serious you would have read mine and made a comment about Touring to Eastern Europe or Welcoming the likes of Georgia or Russia to Twickers in the Autumn instead of the All Blacks or the Boks.

You didn't even comment on it, ergo I retain my conclusion that the point of this post is to Wind up Scottish posters since you are not even recognising the possibility of Touring that region instead of Touring South Africa in the summer.

Just give us a break will ya. That comment was completly serious- Rugger Radge is off the mark from my pov. And i dont understand how anyone can jump to such an odd conclusion to that post. Your being completly unfair. I am just backing up the topic and concentrating on that- If you wanna derail this thread go ahead. But it just prooves your the one spouting BS- 100% on this thread and all!

Rugger i have no problem with discussing touring options . I am all for it. But i am not here to massage your ego. This is a discussion and i am concentrating on the topic at hand

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I think people are struggling to work out this concept- teams like georgia,russia or spain would only be playing the top teams if they have proved to be better than a relegated scotland or italy. If they could do that they would get into the top division and play the big boys.

The only argument against this is to protect scotland. sorry scotland are not a charity case. You would think that in all the talk of independance these type of talks would be in the past!!

Deary me.

Take it as it was intended - a joke.
Sorry if i caused offence

Radge, thats actually a very good idea in having AI's involving the afore mentioned teams. I have long been an advocate of sending A-teams to these countries for short tours to slowly introduce them to international standard rugby.

Maybe for the first few AI's, these countries can play the A-teams before the main shows. I am sure many people would turn up to watch the games.

OK, I'll try to simplify it.

Why don't England (or Wales or Ireland) tour to the likes of eastern Europe? Or invite them over to play in the Autumn Internationals?

Or why don't these said teams Tour Eastern Europe in the summer?

If you can answer thes questions in a reasonable and constructive way, I'll give your point of Relegation and Promotion to the 6N some serious thought.

You want to improve 2nd grade rugby in Europe give the next 3 teams in the rankings - Spain, Georgia and Rumania 2 Internationals in November against the 6N sides.

Italy and Scotland would play Spain as the weakest side.
Georgia and Rumania would get France or England plus Ireland or Wales.

The developement of rugby in France and Italy improved from the top down down not the other way round. It got its big boost when they joined the 4N/5N. Club rugby improved after that - it will be the same with other countries.

It is each 6N side playing one game against these sides - not a big ask.

I should also add , Scotland are just as guilty of neglecting the emerging Talent from the likes of Russia, Romania and Georgia.

However Scotland have taken it upon themselves to tour the Pacific Islands in this years summer tours. Granted it's probabkly because the big SH teams are not interested in playing us and the pacific Islanders are there by default.

I find it strange that they don't want to play us since we recently have had a habit of giving them a bloody nose at Murrayfield.

I just think that it would be better for the a-teams to play them in the AI's firstly. If these teams played the full teams then there would be hammerings galore. Introduce them slowly is the best option.

I've changed my mind, you're all talking 90% BS

Thanks bilt.

On to Ruggers comment about touring instead.

Yep its a good idea- but should it be up to individual unions themselves to grow the game.If england played these other nations whilst other top nations are playing the big boys that would only hinder ourselves. At the end of the day our loyality remains at home. Its the powers of the game that need to step up and intergrate other nations into the game. Make compulsary tours to lesser nations from all the tier one countries or intergarte then in to our annual comps.

RubyGuby wrote:I've changed my mind, you're all talking 90% BS

Shrink you cheeky monkey

Burger that for a lark. England/Scotland is the oldest test and full of history. It's also one of England's toughest games - particularly at MF. And this 6N Scotland very nearly beat England, and we ended up 2nd. So they can't be far off. I like the idea of getting the 2nd teams (Saxons etc) involved in a European comp. though.

eirebilly wrote:I just think that it would be better for the a-teams to play them in the AI's firstly. If these teams played the full teams then there would be hammerings galore. Introduce them slowly is the best option.

+1

It would be great Experience for the Players of Georgia Romania et al and great Experience for the Fringe players in the Saxons, Wolfhounds, Scotland A and the Welsh U20s or whatever they have as an equivelant A team.....

lets not open that can of worms though

In all seriousness it would benefit all concerned for the 6N teams to send their A teams off on tours like this.

Billy - in a few years time Oakey will be calling for a 3rd tier tournament to accomodate Ireland

You may jest Ruby but you never know

In my view the only way you are going to involve the other european nations is to expand the Six Nations.

But then you have the danger of dilluting the quality and standing of the tournament.

It is the same principal that applies to the Fournations, you could argue that Japan, samoa, Fiji and Tonga should gain access to it as well.

But once again, the six Nations and Fournations are the elite rugby competitions outside of the RWC.

I come back to what I said earlier, it is almost impossible to combine al these countries in one competition be it club or international.

In my view this will never work.

Those countries not involved in the six nations must look via the IRB assistance for creating tournamnets which from what I understand is there already.

What might work, is to say either during the Summer tours or Autumn internationals, let those tier two nations play against the bottom two teams in the six nations, and only if they win, may they get to compete in the next Six Nations tournament.

So if Scotland comes 5th or 6th they play an away and home match against, lets say Georgia, and Georgia has to win to gain access.

In my opinion Georgia is still a way off to get there, but at least this way the "glass ceiling" is removed.

Hell Shrink, we are nearly a 3rd world country again so why not

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I should also add , Scotland are just as guilty of neglecting the emerging Talent from the likes of Russia, Romania and Georgia.

However Scotland have taken it upon themselves to tour the Pacific Islands in this years summer tours. Granted it's probabkly because the big SH teams are not interested in playing us and the pacific Islanders are there by default.

I find it strange that they don't want to play us since we recently have had a habit of giving them a bloody nose at Murrayfield.

Apparently Radge, Scotland declined playing NZ in favour of playing the Pacificers. Read into that what you will

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I should also add , Scotland are just as guilty of neglecting the emerging Talent from the likes of Russia, Romania and Georgia.

However Scotland have taken it upon themselves to tour the Pacific Islands in this years summer tours. Granted it's probabkly because the big SH teams are not interested in playing us and the pacific Islanders are there by default.

I find it strange that they don't want to play us since we recently have had a habit of giving them a bloody nose at Murrayfield.

Apparently Radge, Scotland declined playing NZ in favour of playing the Pacificers. Read into that what you will

ranking points

Oddly enough if what you say is correct Tattie it kinda nullifies any arguments that scotland should play in the 6nations by default. Declining playing the best in the world for an easier ride, doesnt really help scotlands casue.

In truth I think the team AR is seinding over will be one of the greenest we have seen in terms of International rugby. I can't think getting squashed by the All Blacks would have done us any good.

The 6N is a differant kettle of fish. The trends show the usual teams to be in the mix are Wales, England and France. As we all know the games are always very tight and as I have said before there is very little separating the team that wins and the wooden spooners.

ruggerradge, hence if Sotland or who ever else finds themselves at the bottom of the six nations, to play one or two relegation matches won't and shouldn't harm them.

But it will take away the perception that the six nations is closed off to toehr countries.

I would be nervous about an away relegation match to Georgia. Can't imagine many would like to play there.

I would support the Idea as a home and away fixture to decide relegation. But not before Georgia or any other team to be considered can mount a serious challenge to the likes of Scotland on a regular basis.

The sad thing is you won't get that untill Georgia and Romania et al get invited to participate in the AI's or some of the 6N go on tour to these countries.

Why does it have to involve the immediate relegation of Scotland, Italy, Wales or whoever happens to finish bottom of the 6 nations. They could expand the 6 nations into 8. 2 groups of 4 and elimantions, and playoffs for 1 to 8. The same number of weeks lost to club football (i.e. 5). Bottom team relegated. This means play off for 1 and 2 and 7 and 8 mean something. top of the next tier goes up automatically. Current 6 nations teams are saved in the short term as Georgia, Russia or whoever comes up are probably going to take at least a decade or two to be truely competative (i.e. it's unlikely that Scotland would lose to Italy, Georgia and Russia in the same year for a while).

Lets not kid ourselves, the supposed 2nd Tier pacific Island teams are no walk over by any stretch of the imagination. On their day they have the quality to knock over Teir 1 nations and have done so on a regular basis. I think that its a great tour for Scotland.

It is a great tour for scotland and very much the perfect match ups for them at this stage in there development- but it just prooves the fact that scotland are a side that has lower expectations and a side that shouldnt be giving any god given right.

And yes black - you are spot on we could incorporate other teams and have a different format, which i am very much up for.

Home unions will hate that as it will mean losing out on the big match ups that generate garanteed revenue- But i say forget about that lets grow the game. The IRB should stand up

eirebilly wrote:Lets not kid ourselves, the supposed 2nd Tier pacific Island teams are no walk over by any stretch of the imagination. On their day they have the quality to knock over Teir 1 nations and have done so on a regular basis. I think that its a great tour for Scotland.

So do I, in truth If we come home with 1 win out of 3 I'll be happy. Fiji and Samoa in their back yards is a tough challenge for any team. Scotland will be trying some new players and this will be a tough intorduction for some of the Rookies.

Aye Myster but the plain fact of the matter is that money talks which even the IRB wouldn't refuse.

Media dictates the day and until that changes (which it never will), get used to having the current format for a long time to come.

Never say never though.

Radge mate, i would not be unhappy about Ireland doing the same tour to be honest. Great place to go for some good hard rugby and the encorperating of new players. That and the fact that the PI teams would love to have a go at some NH teams. Win win in my books.

I also wouldn't bet against Scotland beating Australia then losing to Fiji and Samao.

I wouldnt bet against anything. Scotland are a very tough side to beat up. It seems like a good move for me. Even if you only get one win it could be seen as a success. But i think you really need to try and beat Fiji and somoa, you have threatened much but delivered very little. Your team has got to stand up at some point,

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I also wouldn't bet against Scotland beating Australia then losing to Fiji and Samao.

Its on the cards isnt it. Like Ireland, Scotland are always bound to pull off that one big performance.

As I've said I like the idea of a euro cup but what you seem to be forgetting is that every international team has good times and bad times, not so long ago Wales were very poor and in the 80s and 90s Scotland were quite successful. The six nations is over a relatively short period of time and is impacted heavily on by form and injuries. I am prepared to bet £100 that by 2015 Scotland will have won the six nations, Scotland do have a right to the six nations we were one of the founders and push most teams close every year, one day Ireland, France, Wales or England will finish bottom, how would you feel about delegation then? A promotion or

As I've said I like the idea of a euro cup but what you seem to be forgetting is that every international team has good times and bad times, not so long ago Wales were very poor and in the 80s and 90s Scotland were quite successful. The six nations is over a relatively short period of time and is impacted heavily on by form and injuries. I am prepared to bet £100 that by 2015 Scotland will have won the six nations, Scotland do have a right to the six nations we were one of the founders and push most teams close every year, one day Ireland, France, Wales or England will finish bottom, how would you feel about delegation then? A promotion or relegation system won't help anyone, France and Italy only started improving after a consistent period in the 5n/6n; promoting then relegating a team won't help them!

In my opinion we have to raise the profile of second tier rugby in Europe before we can start talking about this.

1) So the current tier 2 countries can step up and compete when the time comes.
2) So the current tier 1 countries will not fade into obscurity should they get relegated.

I agree with those saying that the development of these countries should be top down, and that means we have to guarantee tier 2 countries player release for International tournaments. In my opinion, the lack of a global international window will seriously hinder any effort to improve the quality of tier 2 nations. Either the best players will be tied into club commitments for some/all of their nation's games or the best players will have to play in weaker domestic leagues and will not develop as they could playing in a stronger league.

I think reciprocal tours between developing European nations and A teams of established European nations would be a good thing that could be implemented immediately. I'd play the matches in the developed nations in June (at club stadiums, and while there are no other home matches to distract fans) and in the emerging nations in the Autumn (where they will be big draws and could compete with any domestic match).

Promotion/relegation to the Six Nations is quite a long way off in my opinion. It shouldn't be as I think some nations aren't too far away from deserving promotion (certainly Georgia and Romania did no worse in the World Cup against England and Scotland than Italy were doing when they first joined the Six Nations), but it would be too easy to "lose" an established tier 1 team in the obscurity of tier 2 European rugby. Of course no team has a god given right to tier 1 rugby (in my opinion), but if we (and I don't know who the "we" I am referring to are!) are to grow the game we have a duty to do it responsibly and sustainably.

Ultimately I'd like to see a 5 month International period (June-November), with:
Middle and end of year test series pretty much as are (including the Lions);
A home and away, promotion/relegation Six Nations in the even years;
A European Championship every four years;
And the Rugby World Cup pretty much as is.

With a 3/4 month European Super Rugby season running from February-May and domestic leagues running concurrently with International rugby. I can honestly say if we had that system now, I don't think anyone would be advocating changing to the system we currently have. Although it will take a while to get to the stage where a system like that is viable, I think it would stop the artificial "barriers to entry" created by the current system, while also ensuring that relegated teams stay relevant (for want of a better term) as they will still be involved in a top level tournament the next year, before having to fall down and fight for their place back at the top table.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I should also add , Scotland are just as guilty of neglecting the emerging Talent from the likes of Russia, Romania and Georgia.

However Scotland have taken it upon themselves to tour the Pacific Islands in this years summer tours. Granted it's probabkly because the big SH teams are not interested in playing us and the pacific Islanders are there by default.

I find it strange that they don't want to play us since we recently have had a habit of giving them a bloody nose at Murrayfield.

Andy Robinson has said publicly that Scotland want to continue to play a lot of Tier B teams. The IRB have also forced Tier 1 countries to tour Tier B ones, especially North America, Japan and the Pacific Islands.

The IRB also makes Tier 1 countries tour each other on rotation now, so teams not wanting to play Scotland isnt an option, however Scotland have opted out of the new 3 test tours, instead choosing to play a Tier 1 nation only once.

As for the likes of touring Russia and Georgia, both these teams have been on tour to Wales this season. Russia played games against the Dragons and Ospreys in pre season to prepare for the World Cup, and Georgia have been on tour in Wales recently, playing a Premiership XV in Bridgend, and RGC1404. Wales do make the effort to play Tier B nations though dont play them in full internationals.

123456789 wrote:I am prepared to bet £100 that by 2015 Scotland will have won the six nations,

You think in 3 years Scotland would of won the trophy? No offence intended but you may as well burn that money mate.

I'd be up for a European cup in the Lions year. Typically someone has toured Argentina but they've got their own tournament now. The kiwis may get peeved if no-one is visiting there.

But we could used a 4 yearly European cup (even if it's A sides) to judge the performance of the European nations (if the IRB get involved to provide money for training etc). Once some of them are up to the standard the most likely thing is a multi-pool competition rather than promotion/relegation. So 2 pools of 5 with two 1st places playing each other for championship, two 2nd's for 3rd place, etc, down to the two last placed, who will playoff for relegation.

I'm not a traditionalist

HammerofThunor wrote:I'd be up for a European cup in the Lions year. Typically someone has toured Argentina but they've got their own tournament now. The kiwis may get peeved if no-one is visiting there.

But we could used a 4 yearly European cup (even if it's A sides) to judge the performance of the European nations (if the IRB get involved to provide money for training etc). Once some of them are up to the standard the most likely thing is a multi-pool competition rather than promotion/relegation. So 2 pools of 5 with two 1st places playing each other for championship, two 2nd's for 3rd place, etc, down to the two last placed, who will playoff for relegation.

I'm not a traditionalist

Even with Lions tours and national tours, there is no reason why national teams could not compete, either as A teams, or simply dont award caps for those games.
4 pools of 4 and 16 teams. That gives the top 6 nations B sides a chance, and the top 4, 6 Nations C sides.

Will Wales be entering their U20?

Alyn, by 2015 we'll be able to field a squad of:
15. Hogg
14. Visser
13. Bennett
12. Scott
11. Jones/ Brown
10. Weir
9. Laidlaw
8. Denton/ Beattie
7. Rennie/ Barclay
6. Harley/ MacInally
5. Richie Gray
4. Jonny Gray/ Gilchrist
3. WP Nel/ Cross
2. Ford
1. Welsh

16. Grant
17. MacArthur
18. WP Nel/ Cross
19. One of the lock options
20. Pyrgos
21. Leonard/ Jackson
22. Brown/ Dunbar

That's a side of (mainly) quality players. If Scotland click with the new management then we'll see a very strong Scotland.

123456789 wrote:Alyn, by 2015 we'll be able to field a squad of:
15. Hogg
14. Visser
13. Bennett
12. Scott
11. Jones/ Brown
10. Weir
9. Laidlaw
8. Denton/ Beattie
7. Rennie/ Barclay
6. Harley/ MacInally
5. Richie Gray
4. Jonny Gray/ Gilchrist
3. WP Nel/ Cross
2. Ford
1. Welsh

16. Grant
17. MacArthur
18. WP Nel/ Cross
19. One of the lock options
20. Pyrgos
21. Leonard/ Jackson
22. Brown/ Dunbar

That's a side of (mainly) quality players. If Scotland click with the new management then we'll see a very strong Scotland.

Yup and the Welsh grand slam team of 2012 might of gone through puberty by then and gotten a hell of a lot better!
Ireland might of finally found some props that could scrummage or convicnced Sampson Lee to play for Ireland after letting Wales do all the work for them, and England and France might of got their act together.

Wales and Ireland have talented young players bursting from the seems at the moment.

Every country in Britain seems to be full of young talent now, France will always compete and Ireland seem to have an ageing squad so it will be interesting to see how they cope. I do worry for Italy though...

i honestly think a team like croatia or russia would improve ten fold if it got into a extended 5 nations format with relegation. italy arent really doing enough. people say it took time for france to get involved- is there anything to suggest that italy is getting stronger in any respect. are the fans growing, are there more players getting involved at grass routes. Sometimes its better for a team to be able to compete and win games - as you can see with scotland they have chosen to play lower level nations for a good reason- because its closer to there level.
I cant see italy getting any better unless they get more interest, but to get more interest they need to win!! its a vicious circle and there is no future that i can see, and this is a classic reason why we need promotion and relegation- if we started it next year- i garantee we would have two groups of high quality teams fighting it out and some of the top teams will get relegated ,its all great fun from my pov! all the matches would create revenue eventually and we would end up in that long run with more money to spread about

123456789 wrote:Alyn, by 2015 we'll be able to field a squad of:
15. Hogg
14. Visser
13. Bennett
12. Scott
11. Jones/ Brown
10. Weir
9. Laidlaw
8. Denton/ Beattie
7. Rennie/ Barclay
6. Harley/ MacInally
5. Richie Gray
4. Jonny Gray/ Gilchrist
3. WP Nel/ Cross
2. Ford
1. Welsh

16. Grant
17. MacArthur
18. WP Nel/ Cross
19. One of the lock options
20. Pyrgos
21. Leonard/ Jackson
22. Brown/ Dunbar

That's a side of (mainly) quality players. If Scotland click with the new management then we'll see a very strong Scotland.

you are already planning to convert WP Nel?

Geez, the guy is still playing Super rugby this year, don't you think you should first see if he likes it over there. He hasn't even left our shores yet.

Apparently he has a Scottish grandparent...