A Second Tier 5 Nations Competition?

First topic message reminder :

Is it time to introduce a two tiered 5 Nations style competition into European Rugby?

How would people feel about a top tier 5 nations consisting of England, Ireland, Wales, France and Italy/Scotland and a second tier of Italy/Scotland, Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain?

The bottom placed top division team is then replaced with the winners of the second division for the following year?

I understand there would be some criticisms. Perhaps the concept of relegation would lead to more negative, fear filled rugby is one possibility. It also allows less room for creativity or ambitious selection possibility which might hinder sides development, especially in regards to building towards a world cup.

Perhaps if relegation only occured if a side finished bottom for back to back years combined with a side winning the second tier in back to back years might avoid this?

Rugny in countries like Scotland seem to be on the brink and really stuttering. Is it fair that other nations are held back to some extent and not given the opportunity like Itlay was to compete at a higher level? I think it would allow the game to develop more in Europe and to better standards. Scotlans and Italy seem to only manage the odd singular win in the competition these days and have never challenged since the expanded format.

Shoot him then.

I am assuming that by "Scotland and Italy" people mean "teams that are, on current form, potentially the weakest".

And if some of the posters in their 30s or older don't mean that, then cast your minds back to the 80s and 90s where Welsh and Irish teams were typically horsed by all of the other nations. Players and teams' form is cyclical, so let's not get too smug or judgmental about which sides will definitely form part of a 6N 'Premier League'. That can change in very few years indeed.

biltongbek wrote:

123456789 wrote:Alyn, by 2015 we'll be able to field a squad of:
15. Hogg
14. Visser
13. Bennett
12. Scott
11. Jones/ Brown
10. Weir
9. Laidlaw
8. Denton/ Beattie
7. Rennie/ Barclay
6. Harley/ MacInally
5. Richie Gray
4. Jonny Gray/ Gilchrist
3. WP Nel/ Cross
2. Ford
1. Welsh

16. Grant
17. MacArthur
18. WP Nel/ Cross
19. One of the lock options
20. Pyrgos
21. Leonard/ Jackson
22. Brown/ Dunbar

That's a side of (mainly) quality players. If Scotland click with the new management then we'll see a very strong Scotland.

you are already planning to convert WP Nel?

Geez, the guy is still playing Super rugby this year, don't you think you should first see if he likes it over there. He hasn't even left our shores yet.

Biltong - don't even get Asbo started on Sean McMaitland.

George Carlin wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

123456789 wrote:Alyn, by 2015 we'll be able to field a squad of:
15. Hogg
14. Visser
13. Bennett
12. Scott
11. Jones/ Brown
10. Weir
9. Laidlaw
8. Denton/ Beattie
7. Rennie/ Barclay
6. Harley/ MacInally
5. Richie Gray
4. Jonny Gray/ Gilchrist
3. WP Nel/ Cross
2. Ford
1. Welsh

16. Grant
17. MacArthur
18. WP Nel/ Cross
19. One of the lock options
20. Pyrgos
21. Leonard/ Jackson
22. Brown/ Dunbar

That's a side of (mainly) quality players. If Scotland click with the new management then we'll see a very strong Scotland.

you are already planning to convert WP Nel?

Geez, the guy is still playing Super rugby this year, don't you think you should first see if he likes it over there. He hasn't even left our shores yet.

Biltong - don't even get Asbo started on Sean McMaitland.

George you got to give it to these guys, they don't even hide the fact anymore that they are bolstering their international squads with talent from SA.

I get the feeling someone is tracing every potential rugby player in SA, to see if their is a grand parent nobody knew about.

Wonder when my Son's name is going to come up, but then with our Afrikaans surname, it is unlikely.

George Carlin wrote:I am assuming that by "Scotland and Italy" people mean "teams that are, on current form, potentially the weakest".

And if some of the posters in their 30s or older don't mean that, then cast your minds back to the 80s and 90s where Welsh and Irish teams were typically horsed by all of the other nations. Players and teams' form is cyclical, so let's not get too smug or judgmental about which sides will definitely form part of a 6N 'Premier League'. That can change in very few years indeed.

i wouldnt say potentially- i think its safe to say they are and its not being judgemnetal- just talking the truth. No reason why scotland cant get better tho, not sure about italy mind- there doesnt seem to be much cycle going on with them

Lets' not get judgemental here.

I don't judge anyone badly if they qualify through a blood relative. Residnecy is a big problem for me.

As for Grandparents, Big Wagga (Nathan Hines) was Oz born but I have never seen anyone belt out Flower of Scotland with more gusto. He was damn proud to play for Scotland.

rules are the rules, end of story- there are they to be used.

However i look at it the other way Rugger. In a perfect world pespective i think residency has more bearing on where one should play there international sport- as they have gone through the system in that country- blood relatives from other countries doesnt seem morally acceptable to me

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Lets' not get judgemental here.

I don't judge anyone badly if they qualify through a blood relative. Residnecy is a big problem for me.

As for Grandparents, Big Wagga (Nathan Hines) was Oz born but I have never seen anyone belt out Flower of Scotland with more gusto. He was damn proud to play for Scotland.

sorry mate, but I disagree.

If your grandparents came to SA in the 1950's - 60's, your parents were born in SA, in the 60's - 80's and you lived here, going to another country to play international rugby just doesn't sit right with me. How much link does one actually have with your Grandparent's homeland.

Becuase of a grand parent you now play for another nation, wrong. Absolutely wrong.

It is like saying in the 18th and 19th century we used the resources of the colonies to enrich ourselves, well now they are independant nations, so we'll use a grand parent ruling to milk their talent, after all it is the last thing we can lay claim on.

yep totally agree bilt.

Thanks mystir.

In most cases, but not all Bilt. If you have a strong conection to the blood relative in question Like Nathan Hines and the Evans brothers off the top of my head, why is it such a taboo to play for another country if you want.

I would have to say Hines could have had the pedigree to play for the Wallabies, it's an honour for us that he chose Scotland.

rugger, for me it just isn't the way it should be done, of course there is nthing I can do about it, perhaps I should run for presidency of the IRB. (that's a load of hogwash).

But yeah, not good.

Italy A beat Russia well in the world cup.

The 6N u20 should be changed to the u23s allowing Wales and France to have real A teams and have them and the 6B nations play in either in three groups of 4 with semi (winners and best 2nd) and final or two divsions of 6.

This could be done while the lions is on and set it in the a few countries ie, Top three sides in 6B for last two years

Winner (if not a 6N team) plays loser of 6N. If Georgia then get they put out a second team if they don't the demoted team can.

If italy or Scotland can't beat a team with either their A team or full team they deserve to go down.


Italy are getting better quicker since joining the Rabo and finding that they can beat the celtic players week in week out. Georgia and Romina have a few players overseas but playing week in week out with 2-4 top teams from the next six countries will do more then a promotion relegation system.

They could do a prem style where a promoted side has be part of a Rabo style League. Beat the black sea league would start up then.

One thing for sure is the there needs to be tours where mid weak teams have to play atleast one 6B team when coming to Euro

Im creeping towards favouring a promotion relegation two division euro nations comp. When Wales get relegated we could change the entry criteria at the last minute to stop them coming back up then sit back and enjoy watching them flip out.

i wonder what tycoes would say about dat?

How about a two tier southern hemisphere division, surely the gap between Scotland and Georgia is similar to that of Samoa and Argentina? It would also force the tri-nations teams to play in Fiji and Samoa. Also if their country was playing at a higher level the pacific islanders would be less likely to play for New Zealand. You could even include them in your Super 15 and have two Argentinian sides and one from Fiji, Samoa, Japan an Tonga as well as the new South African side. Then you could have a Super 12 and a Second division, reducing fixture congestion and probably improving the standard in the top division whilst helping out the smaller nations.

yes there also should be a two tier SH comp as well. both of us have got to expand with our 'lesser' neighbours

First tier (anyone who has won a slam in the past 3 years)

WALES
IRELAND
FRANCE

Second tier

ITALY
SCOTLAND
ENGLAND

Winner of 1st tier plays winner of 2nd tier.

Yeah idris quality post, thats really helping the developing nations out

I agree mystir, that post doesn't add anythig to the debate.

George Carlin wrote:I am assuming that by "Scotland and Italy" people mean "teams that are, on current form, potentially the weakest".

And if some of the posters in their 30s or older don't mean that, then cast your minds back to the 80s and 90s where Welsh and Irish teams were typically horsed by all of the other nations. Players and teams' form is cyclical, so let's not get too smug or judgmental about which sides will definitely form part of a 6N 'Premier League'. That can change in very few years indeed.

Yeah theres cyclical form but looking ahead a decade its hard to see how Scotland and Italy will improve by any great and lasting amount. Both are struggling to keep their domestic game afloat as it is.
Its not just results in the last few years and the paper strnegth of the sides now, ist the health of the uinions and the potential for them to put together winning sides. there will be seasons where they arent the bottom two but of the 6 nations those two are the ones youd most expect to struggle in the short and medium term future.

Threatening them with relegation will do nothing to promote the long term health of the sport in either and attract the investment they desperately need to stay competitive and keep funding their pro sides. Scotland and Italy are already on what amounts to welfare payments from the money the English and French Tv audiences bring in via the 6 nations.

It would be even worse with promoted unions who some up simply on the basis they beat other second rate sides. If they are going to invite teams up it has to be because they are strong and will bring something to the table other than more drain on the resources and one sided fixtures played in soviet era stadia.

I also dont buy into the argument that a one off playoff top v bottom game proves conclusively that one side is more deserving of being at the top table than another. They scrapped this idea from the Jeff as it was seen as fundamentally unfair to the team seeking promotion. Anything can happen on the day as we saw from Frances win over Wales at the world cup, we all know Wales were the stronger team at the time and continued to be going forwards to the 6 nations.

Scotland's domestic game seems to be on the up, we had two semi-finals and easily could have had at least one final. Our pro clubs are signing players and a lot of our young players are being signed by English and French clubs like Matt Steele, Mark Bennett and Murdo McAndrew as well as several young Scots playing for our existing sides. Our crowds are up and the SRU are determined to find Edinburgh their own home and have got Glasgow one. We aren't far away from a third and fourth team. We have a very promising group of young players coming through and when we get more pro teams I believe we will regularly compete for six nations title.

yeah Scotland could well be on the up. But italy.. nothing suggests they will get better.

This is a nation that thrives on successfull sports- when ferrari doesnt do well at f1 they turn of in drooves, same goes for football.

We need some way of allowing teams like croatia or russia(teams of real potential- that i garantee would do well in a top division and improve in the long run).

This closed shop isnt helping world rugby at all.

I think we should perhaps set up a European league of Italian teams, Georgian teams, Romanian, possibly an Iberian side,and a Russian team. Leaving Treviso in the Rabo because it's clear they aren't good enough for two trams in the Rabo.

Dont tell me , next years 6 nations dark horses are Scotland?

Black Beauty was a dark horse.

We always are and, injury and form permitting, could potentially do it next year. We have exciting backs and strong forwards and while individually we might not be France, Ireland or Wales, if our new coaching team clicks and our first or in some cases second choice players are available we could do it. A squad with with the Killer Bs, Denton, Rennie, Gray, Ford, Blair, Hogg, Visser and Hamilton at their best we could compete. It'll be very interesting to see how Johnnie Beattie does tomorrow...